I'm going to pick up my RS4 tomorrow, but I have a major concern..

[dxben]

Dealer says the car has 75 miles on it. That seems excessive. And that is before he sent it to get detailed.

What are the odds that some idiot on at least one (if not more than one) occasion, took the car and either rode the clutch and/or revved it past where it should be prior to full breakin?

[davem82]

hey dxben

i recently posted a similar question and i too was thinking the same thing, however, the response was that the rs4 had to get special testing, alot of the other members had significant milage on their cars (personally i had just over 100km (~60miles) on mine. here's the link if you wanna read over them:

http://www2.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=9446

[KK265]

Please check the average fuel consumption and tell us what you saw.

[Erik]

Hi and welcome!

Don't worry! See the other thread just posted, this is normal.

Please post pictures once you get the chance...

[dxben]

Someone else on another board recommended I have them use the VAG tool to show that the car has never been driven over 6k RPM.

Does that sound like a good idea? Isn't it possible though that someone on a test drive may have done that? Who's to stop them?

Also, someone recommended that I check the PDI to see what the mileage was at port, so I can know how much its been driven since released from the factory.

[Freestyle]

Originally posted by dxben
Someone else on another board recommended I have them use the VAG tool to show that the car has never been driven over 6k RPM.

Does that sound like a good idea? Isn't it possible though that someone on a test drive may have done that? Who's to stop them?

Also, someone recommended that I check the PDI to see what the mileage was at port, so I can know how much its been driven since released from the factory.

If the engine was warm enough it wouldn't be any problem even if it was brand new

[dxben]

But if the engine wasn't warm enough?

I guess the dealers are smart enough to let the engine warm up before letting people test drive it?

I just don't want to buy a car this expensive and find out that its going to have issues down the road..

Or that the clutch could be warn out already.

[Freestyle]

Originally posted by dxben
But if the engine wasn't warm enough?

I guess the dealers are smart enough to let the engine warm up before letting people test drive it?

I just don't want to buy a car this expensive and find out that its going to have issues down the road..

Or that the clutch could be warn out already.

Of course they will make sure the engine is warm enough.

The clutch can handle it, I guess. I can't be warn out that fast.

[Erik]

quattro GmbH in Germany test drove your car, as they do with all other RS cars.

[clam]

The dealers are probably advised to do a hard break in, to properly seal the piston rings, but not to tell the customer, b/c advising the hard break in could lead to legal liability when accidents occur.

[dxben]

Originally posted by clam
The dealers are probably advised to do a hard break in, to properly seal the piston rings, but not to tell the customer, b/c advising the hard break in could lead to legal liability when accidents occur.

Interesting. I've heard about the hard breaking theory.

But what does it have to do with accidents. Is it any more likely to cause an accident or do you mean just that people will use any little thing when accidents occur to help their legal case?

Sorry for the noob questions here, I'm a bit nervous going to pick this car up. It probably doesn't help that I haven't driven a stickshift car in several years... It will probably take me a few hours to regain the hang of it.

[Benman]

Originally posted by Erik

Don't worry! See the other thread just posted, this is normal.

No, this is not normal.

It is normal to have about 75km, not 75miles. Quattro only puts anywhere from 10-40 miles on your car (mine had @13 miles), maybe a couple more, but highly doubtfull. 75 is the result of dealer personel driving your car, plain and simple.

However, that being said, I doubt there will be major issues as your car is completely under warranty as long as it remains stock and if any problems arrise, they'll show up long before car warranty expires. As a suggestion, have the dealer put it in writing that you are "concerned" about the mileage and future possible "issues" that may arrise due to the result of possible "abuse" the car may or may not have experienced. It is always better safe than sorry. And BTW, enjoy your new sweet ride.

Ben

[dxben]

Well I didn't get them to put it in writing, I don't think its going to be an issue.

He explained the car came in with 42 miles on it, then his guy did a 20 mile break in ride that I guess some dealers are doing. He named the guy who did it, so I don't think they had just anyone doing it, its the same guy there all the time.

Then, there were a few test drives and a drive to get it detailed. He also pointed out there are few roads around there where you can ring out the engine, so its unlikely it was driven in any way that would cause issues.

I think 75 is OK based on that and it is on warranty.

Don't get me worrying anymore please

I am loving the car. Right now I am more concerned I don't screw up the clutch because its been a while since I drove stick

[KK265]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benman
[B]No, this is not normal.

I agree.The first officially imported RS4 came in Greece 1 week ago with 30 km on the clock.

[clam]

Originally posted by dxben
Interesting. I've heard about the hard breaking theory.

But what does it have to do with accidents. Is it any more likely to cause an accident or do you mean just that people will use any little thing when accidents occur to help their legal case?

Sorry for the noob questions here, I'm a bit nervous going to pick this car up. It probably doesn't help that I haven't driven a stickshift car in several years... It will probably take me a few hours to regain the hang of it.

If they put in the manual "you need to drive the car as hard as you can for the first 20miles", and the new owner crashes the car he/she is not used to yet, then he/she could sue the manufacturer for suggesting such a dangerous action.

The easy break in has no mechanical logic. If parts don't fit, you can drive it a million miles, they still won't fit. The hard break in grinds the piston rings down to a create a perfect seal on a mircoscopic level. Engines work on air pressure, so a proper hermetic seal of the combustion chamber is very important indeed. The sealing rings are pushed against the cilinder wall using pressure from the combustion chamber. So to get the best results, you need to create as much pressure as possible by pushing the engine hard (once it has warmed up off course).
Cilinder walls are especially honed for this purpose. If you replace piston rings, for instance, you need to re-hone the cylinder walls. There are special tools for that.

The problem is that the cilinder walls themselves become smooth after a while. So you only get a small window of opportunity to create the best ring seal.
Another important thing is to use fossile fuel. B/c synthetic fuel is too smooth, and will interfere with the grinding action. And to change the oil and oil filter immediatly after the first 20miles, b/c they will contain metal grindings from the rings. Keep on using fossile fuel for the first few thousand miles, to aid further grinding of the seals, change fuel regulary during this time, and then you can switch to the better lubricating synthetic stuff if you want.

In the engine factory, after assembly the engine is hooked up to a diagnostic machine, and after a warm up, they bounce it off the rev limiter a couple of times. This starts the sealing process, but for a flagship like the RS4, Audi will want to perform a complete procedure. The gains can be up to a 10% increase in overall effeciency. An engine is a machine that turns chemical energy of fuel into motion via air pressure. Containing that pressure is as important as any other aspect of the engine. And an effecient engine is a reliable engine.

The part of the car that needs an easy break in is the organic bit behind the steering wheel. Which is why manufacturers will scare people into taking it easy, saying the engine will blow up or something. The doctrine of the easy break in dogma is that parts need to wear into each other. As mechanical parts don't actually touch, but rather slide over each other via a film of oil, or use bearing which themselves are supensed in oil (the balls of a bearing don't roll, but simply displace oil) there is no technical reason why a new engine would need to be restriced. Once a new engine is warmed up, it should perform as it was designed to do.

[lcrcr]

Originally posted by clam
The problem is that the cilinder walls themselves become smooth after a while. So you only get a small window of opportunity to create the best ring seal.

That statement sounds illogical to me. The cylinder walls only get smooth because they are being rubbed by the rings, right? It follows that the rings are conforming to the wall shape as they smooth it out. So how does time enter into it? A long slow breakin seems to make as much sense as a short fast one. (You just might use a bit more oil during the slow process.)

This topic has been debated somewhat endlessly on various boards. It sure would be nice if someone quoted some SAE studies on this subject. Opinions are interesting, and opinions from knowledgeable automotive engineers are valuable. But many times the accepted answer to a question like this is surprisingly incorrect when subjected to the cold light of science. Until some controlled experimental data is available I'm afraid I will continue to doubt that any of the stated techniques are completely correct.

[clam]

On a microscopic level the edges of the seal ring, and the crosshatch honed pattern on the cilinder walls are like a mountain range. The pieks of these mountains are sharp at first. This is when they grind the best. These pieks are also able to penetrate the oil film, which is essencial to grinding down the seals.
But the sharp pieks will quikly become smooth, no matter of how hard the engine is run. Then they loose most of their grinding ability, and their ability to penetrate the oil film between the wall and the seal.

This is not like a cheese grater where the cheese is soft and the grater is a hard metal. The cheese can never wear the grater down, before its fully grated. Both the ring seals and the cilinder walls are made from metal. The honed cilinder wall not only wears down the seal, it also gets worn down itself, in about the same amount of time. Unlike the cheese grater, that can grate cheeses for decades before it is worn down.
So you can compare it to cutting a metal tube with a metal saw. If you don't apply pressure, and just slide the saw over the tube for days on end, you'll just rub down the sharp edges of the saw before you get through the tube. And then you can throw the saw in the garbage bin, and be left holding a tube that is too long for its purpose. Apply pressure, and you'll be able to cut the tube before the sharp features of the saw disappear.

There is real life proof. The picture shows pistons from two racing bike engines. One was broken in according to factory instructions, the other with the hard break in on a dyno. The leaking seals from the 'easy' engine caused a distortion of the bore, and the engine was done after the racing season. The 'hard' engine not only produced more power with less fuel, it was also ready for another season of racing.

The picture is from this site http://mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm
The site is run by a very succesful motorcycle racing mechanic. Well worth reading his articels. You'll have a better understanding of combustion engines than some people who spend 5 years in engineering school learing how to uncritically memorize pieces of information, in return for a piece of paper with a stamp and a signature.

[clam]

This is also an interesting photo from the same site. It is of a bike getting a hard break in, in a specially set up section of the bike factory.