RS4+ question

[tailpipe]

I am posting this question in the hope that someone can shed some light on the RS4 engine situation.

Here is my understanding of key facts as they are currently known based on posts here and other Audi forums:

1. After initial development problems with early 4.2 litre FSI V8 units, Audi reduces power output slightly (404 bhp instead of 414?)

2. Problem corrected in early (February) 2006 and implemented on production line by May 2006 ?

3. During course of correction, Audi discovers that increased airflow to engine can reliably increase power to 440-450 bhp?

All models now developing 414 bhp (420 PS) but Audi may produce uprated RS4+ version with 440-450 bhp? Or just quietly increase bhp on normal production models?

I have no idea whether these facts are correct and would appreciate experts on the forum correcting/ confirming this story where appropriate.

Many thanks.

(BTW am going for RS4 Avant in Sprint Blue with standard suspension, non-bucket seats and steering wheel that supports hands-free bluetooth via MMI interface. Unfortunately, this has to transport family so hardcore performance has to be balanced by practical considerations. I understand that quite a few buyers are binning the sports seats, because they show waer and tear v qucikly. Will keep standard steering wheel if i can find a way of running phone through MMI without opting for special phone wheel.)

[Fab]

I am not an expert but I've been wondering about this potential RS4+ or engine HP upgrade over the past weeks.

A more powerfull version will certainly come out as Audi instuctors told me 10 months ago with lower weight but significantly more expensive as well. And the confort will be very poor in this kind of "CSL" version...

But my point is that we start to see some reputable tuner houses proposing 25-30 hp increase on the regular model for a reasonable amount of money (chip and/or exhaust).

I really doubt Audi will increae the power on the "regular" RS4 in the future. They will do that on a + version only in my opinion but a potential RS4+ will not be available before 2008 which is a long way.

[IulianUM]

They said that the RS4 Safety cars have 440hp just with a diferent exhaust , Milltek announces an increase in torque and power with their new exhaust , MTM have another but I have no info abut it .
Tailpipe I think you were right and the main airflow pipe into the cylinder head looks slightly different , just a bit larger and more rounded , just checked it .

[Graeme]

I'll guess we'll have to see what the tuners turn up with.
If producing 440-450 is easily done at the factory, then perhaps the tuners will find this increase for sensible money..

On a lighter note, I have a freind with an M6 and you should see the sort of money you need to get a bit of extra BHP out of the engine. wow..

[Fab]

B&B in Germany offers extra 25-30 hp for EUR 2'000 for the RS4 without exhaust. Which means you can easily reach 450-460 with both for about EUR 5'000.--

[Leadfoot]

Tailpipe,

You don't think that this upgrade will not go to the RS4, but be kept for the R8.

Not to get off topic, but there is no details of the R8's weight and this extra power would be welcome to help match the acceleration of the M6.

I reckon it will get it first, and only well after it's release will you see a RS4+ if at all, that's what I think.

[tailpipe]

The R8 should be so much lighter than the RS4 that it could have an identical engine and still be much faster. Also, all the weight is in the right place, which also helps.

There is a big issue with Lamborghini cannibalisation. So, R8 engines are still a bit of an enigma. I have heard it said that R8 may only get 350 bhp in its initial offering, i.e. the standard new 4.2 litre V8 FSI engine. Or a turbo-charged version of that engine. developing 380 bhp.

Apparently, the naturally aspirated 4.2 litre with 420 bhp will be unique to RS4.

We should know soon.

[Graeme]

maybe an uprated version of the RS4 (possible carrying the name RS4+, who knows ?) will only be considered when the BMW M3 comes out with the 4ltr V8.
I am only guessing, but I imagine Audi will want the RS4 to out gun the M3. Maybe this is why they're keeping an extra 40-50 bhp up their sleaves.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by tailpipe
The R8 should be so much lighter than the RS4 that it could have an identical engine and still be much faster. Also, all the weight is in the right place, which also helps.

There is a big issue with Lamborghini cannibalisation. So, R8 engines are still a bit of an enigma. I have heard it said that R8 may only get 350 bhp in its initial offering, i.e. the standard new 4.2 litre V8 FSI engine. Or a turbo-charged version of that engine. developing 380 bhp.

Apparently, the naturally aspirated 4.2 litre with 420 bhp will be unique to RS4.

We should know soon.

With this amount of poke it will make it harder to price the R8 any higher than a standard 997. I doubt you will see the R8 with anything less than the RS4's 420hp, remember this is meant to be the peak of Audi range showcasing everything success they have had in motorsport. 5 years ago 350hp was enough for a low end supercar, but not today, look what's around M6, F430, Gallardo, Z06 all producing around 500hp and 600hp the normal of the super league.

If you are correct and the RS4 engine is unique to it, then as I reckoned on another topic "R8 engine", a 3.2/3.6 twin-turbo might be the base engine of the R8. And with this the N/A engine of the RS4 will die with it, not to be repeated on other RS model.

Personnally, I would feel a little bit sad if that was the case, but only if the replacements didn't equal the amazing engine that it is, some how I doubt Audi will do that.

[tailpipe]

An R8 priced well above a 997 will not sell. The Audi brand isn't strong enough to carry the R8 yet. This was the mistake BMW made with the Z8. It was £20,000 too expensive.

As I said, the R8 will be much, much lighter than RS4 so will not suffer by having a lesser engine.

I rather think that 420 bhp V8 engine will remain unique to RS4. Which as you say is a shame. They just did it to show BMW that they could.

I expect Audi to revert to twin turbos for high performance derivatives in short order. But I could be wrong.

My guesses for R8 engines are:

1. 350 bhp 4.2 V8 NA
2. 435 bhp 5.2 V10 NA
3. 550 bhp 5.2 V10 TT
4. V12 5.5 litre V12 TT diesel

[Graeme]

Originally posted by tailpipe


My guesses for R8 engines are:

1. 350 bhp 4.2 V8 NA
2. 435 bhp 5.2 V10 NA
3. 550 bhp 5.2 V10 TT
4. V12 5.5 litre V12 TT diesel

Diesel - are you sure ????
Marketting for this will largely depend on Lemans success in a few weeks, but My image is more likely to be Diesel sport in A4/A6 range to piggyback on the (hopefully at lemans) success

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by Graeme
Diesel - are you sure ????
Marketting for this will largely depend on Lemans success in a few weeks, but My image is more likely to be Diesel sport in A4/A6 range to piggyback on the (hopefully at lemans) success

A diesel has been tested in a Gallardo mule around the ring, so the possibility is high for it making production as a R8.

Tailpine,

With regards to a 350hp R8, I remember reading somewhere the Audi said something like 'the price of a 911 with 100hp more'. I just wished to remembered where.

[tailpipe]

Leadfoot,

As we all try to outguess the manufacturers, it is important to bear in mind that sometimes they change their minds. Especially as the market can change very quickly. I don't know whether you remember the oil price shocks of the early 70s, but they killed cheap sports off almost within a year. It wasn't until the GTi arrived that things got better again.

Secondly, the manufacturers always like to retain as much flexibility as possible and therefore don't finally commit to certain choices until the last minute, i.e. just before production planning commences.

For both these reasons, prototype cars are tested with a variety of engine options all of which are signed-off for production once the intallation is validated in a particular model. But just because an engine works in a particular chassis, obviously doesn't mean it'll see the light of day.

Occasionally, but not very often plans go wrong. And an engine or other option has to be abandoned for practical reasons, usually cost versus achievable retail price.

Audi is being particularly coy about R8 engines because it isn't sure what is the best option. (I think Audi knows now, but because of earlier indecision the market has no real idea.) We can only guess based on the engines known to exist.

There are three further uncertainties that heavily influence engine choice for the R8:

1. Oil price rises (we may never see a sub-$70 price for a barrel of oil again) this means that V-10s are less attractive, especially since F1 has junked them.

2. The market still wants high performance machines, but it wants sensible power. 600 bhp in a car that weights 2.5 tonnes and returns 14 mpg is just plain stupid. Today, it is increasingly about lower weight not more bhp.

3. With the R8, Audi has to kill Porsche without also killing Lamborghini. This is a tall order.

For these reasons, if I were Audi, I wouldn't put the RS4's engine in the R8 and I would wait before using the 5.2 litre V-10 from the S6/S8.

Instead, I would start with the standard 350 bhp V-8 FSI engine, which is much more economical than the RS4's engine, and eliminate all excess weight from the car.

If standard 350 bhp V-8 FSI didn't provide enough power, then I'd try both a twin-turbo version plus the RS4's engine. I'd pick the one that was firstly the most economical and secondly the least expensive one.

What I will say is that a 4.2 litre V-8 with FSI and twin turbos should easily deliver 450 bhp+ while returning 24 mpg. in a very light chassis, it could return almost 30 mpg!!!!!!!!

The RS4's engine is so thirsty that it would be difficult to bring fuel consumtion below 20 in any chassis, light or heavy.

If the market goes sour, then a high powered diesel might be the only viable option.

As a side note, if the R8 has more or less the same power as a 911, but more interior space (2+2) it will compete well. That said, a lot of people will always buy a Porsche over a an Audi R8, because of the badge.

[Benman]

Originally posted by tailpipe

What I will say is that a 4.2 litre V-8 with FSI and twin turbos should easily deliver 450 bhp+ while returning 24 mpg. in a very light chassis, it could return almost 30 mpg!!!!!!!!

I'd say that one sounds doable. On freeway road trips in the Beast, I can get 22-24mpg. And that is in a car without FSI and with @800lbs additional weight. So high 20's or maybe just maybe even 30mpg with a TT V8 FSI sounds like a winner.

Besides... the original Audi R8 had a TT V8... so a similar motor in the road car shouldn't be such a stretch.

Ben

[Leadfoot]

Tailpipe,

I understand where you are coming from. As I am in the petrol game I know why you are taking of the barrel not dropping below $70 again. It will depend on the Middle East, but don't think the oil will soon run out, there is more oil under Canada then in all of the Middle East and the U.S. is finding new oil fields everyday but are capping them for later use.

1/ Trust me, Audi will bring out a V10, regardless of the barrel price. The only reason for Audi have built the R8 is to give the brand a performance crowning piece, it will improve the image of the rest of the range.

2/ Also because the chassis is already in use this means development costs are a lot less than doing it from scatch, all they need to do is tool up for body panels. The engines, transmissions, awd system are already there and this all means that less cars have to be sold to make a profit.

3/ I reackon that the R8 will be no lighter than a Z4M Coupe which has 343hp and only rwd which would be not be much slower than a R8 weighing the same with the 350hp engine. Now do you think Audi will sell the R8 that the £40K+ mark, no of course not, what about the RS4 price of £50K, possible but we know that it would out accelerate a Z4M Coupe so why make the king of the Audi range no quicker then a RS4, the answer is it won't. Unless the R8 destorys the RS4 there was no reason for Audi to have build it, so I would bet anything that the R8 will at least have the RS4 engine and would be surprised if it didn't have a little bit more and that would be the launch model and not the top performance R8-RS will it's W18 10L quad turbo (1500hp) 10speed DSG 300mph model.


OK that last bit was just hoping, but you get the point.

[Benman]

Originally posted by Leadfoot

I understand where you are coming from. As I am in the petrol game I know why you are taking of the barrel not dropping below $70 again. It will depend on the Middle East, but don't think the oil will soon run out, there is more oil under Canada then in all of the Middle East...

No kidding! Those Bas@#%$!!!! The US government will not let the Canadians put all that oil on the market because it would lower the price of oil dramatically!!! As if!!!

Rant over...


Ben

[Graeme]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Tailpipe,

I understand where you are coming from. As I am in the petrol game I know why you are taking of the barrel not dropping below $70 again. It will depend on the Middle East, but don't think the oil will soon run out, there is more oil under Canada then in all of the Middle East and the U.S. is finding new oil fields everyday but are capping them for later use.

1/ Trust me, Audi will bring out a V10, regardless of the barrel price. The only reason for Audi have built the R8 is to give the brand a performance crowning piece, it will improve the image of the rest of the range.

One of the true benefits of being English is that you can sit back and watch the world of American politics get messy.

As for the R8, then I imagine Audi would be silly not to use a V10 as a Halo model. Even if they make a slight loss on it just to undercut the Porsches, then as a marketing tool to force brand association of Audi=sports cars, then the Value is Huge.

I'm still convinced on the Merits of a Diesel R8 though, but we'll have to see.

[tailpipe]

Leadfot and Graeme,

I am sure you're right about using the V-10 engine to achieve a halo effect. I am just not convinced that it will sell as well as V-8 models.

On the subject of diesel, technology in this area has made incredible advances in recent years. Common rail systems ensure a leaner, more efficient burn; particle filters are reducing noxious emissions; and new metals are making such units lighter without sacrificing strength. Combine this with general engine design advances, (smoothness and refinement) and you can understand why diesel engines are shedding their rather agricultural image.

What we're really seeing is a convergence between diesel engines and petrol engines, to the point there the only difference will be each design's optimisation around the type of fuel it uses. Bio-fuels are fast gaining market acceptance. Bio-diesel in particular overcomes environmentalists concerns re: CO2 and re-newable resources. A little further down the road, bio-ethanol will combine excellent efficiency with even better emissions and could well form the basis of viable fuel cell vehicles, (although this scenario is still some years away.) In the meantime, Governments may well give serious tax breaks to encourage the use of bio-fuels.

For all these reasons, diesels are here to stay and are likely to become increasingly popular with ordinary motorists. Given Audi's decision to produce a diesel racer - the R10 - something I applaud as much for its bravery as for its cleverness, it would be strange if it were only an experiment, especially as it is proving to be so successful.

So, were Audi to produce a diesel supercar that has 500+ bhp, 0-100 kph in 4.5 seconds, 250 kph+ top speed and that delivered 40 mpg, would I buy one over a petrol car that was slighlty faster and only gave 14 mpg? You bet I would.

A car that goes like hell without costing the earth (pun intended) is a lot more unique and cooler than a boring old gaz guzzler.

Which brings us back to the R8. Would you rather drive an R8 diesel with 500 bhp 4.5 seconds 0-100 kph etc or an A6 equipped with the same engine?

Personally, I like to travel in stealth mode, so irrespective of any practical considerations, I'd go for the A6.