B8 chassis update

[tailpipe]

There are very good pictures in this week's Auto Express (here in the UK) that show the layout of the B8 A4 using an B7 A4 Avant as a mule. The front wheels have been moved much further forward, obviously with benefits to weight distribution.

These illustrations of the finished car, give some idea of what to expect...

[tailpipe]

Second image...

[tailpipe]

Third image....

[tailpipe]

fourth image...

Very much an evolution and not a bad one at that.

Expect the headlight treatment to be a bit more radical, something like this...

[Leadfoot]

There is a lot of the new TT styling in the sides and nose.

[tailpipe]

Yes, Leadfoot, you're right.

It seems that all three German manufacturers have now gone for a pronounched line along the shoulder of their car designs. I prefer Audi's more horizontal treatment and the way in which the front wheel arch dovetails nicely into the front bumper.

Whether you love or hate the way this car looks, the real story is beneath the skin. This chassis is incredible.

I believe that non-Quattro versions will be RWD.

Quattro versions will have a dramatically improved if not near perfect weight balance. Awesome is the only word.

It will be the last petrol engined A4, so it would be nice if Audi finally eclipsed BMW.

[eazy]

Originally posted by tailpipe
It will be the last petrol engined A4.

What do you want to say with that?

[tailpipe]

Easy,

You're great! You never miss a trick!

What I mean is that new B8 A4 will arrive 2007 and be with us until 2014. Toyota has promised to market the first hydrogen-powered fuel cell car by 2013. Honda, likewise is working on the same technology, as is Mercedes-Benz and GM. By 2010, we will see very convincing hydrogen-powered prototypes running on the roads.

In all likelyhood, hydrogen power will be a mainstream automotive technology by 2015 and we should see almost complete migration to fuel cell vehicles by 2020. This is what is being predicted.

The only thing holding back hydrogen fuel cell (HFC) technology today is cost. If oil prices go above $90 a barrel and are predicted stay above this level for more than 9 months, then suddenly it becomes cheaper to develop fuel cells. An attack on Iran or further instability in the Middle East could produce just such a price shock.

Oil supplies are unlikely to run dry for at least 35 years, if you believe the statement of reserves of the oil companies, but the cost of mining new oil deposits is likely to exceed the cost of developing fuel cell technology by 2015.

The manufacturers who deliver fuel cell technology first, like Apple with the i-Pod, will own it in the minds of car buyers. Therefore, right now, there is a race to perfect it.

Is Audi working on this? You betcha.

[gabbby]

tailpipe,

I apologies for my ban d english, I'm french.

Hydrogen IS NOT a energy source, it's a vector !!!

The reallity is that with the petrole depletion is the end of the world that we know today : it's the end of massiv automotiv market, the end of a easy life !!!

Fuel cell are not at all a solution : it's false.

Y would like you to have a lookup at our company website :

www.mce-5.com

And read the end of this 2 documents (strategy parts) :

http://www.mce-5.com/press_infos/technews.htm

Actually, every constructors will forget the hydrogen vehicles, because there is too many unresolvable problems (economical, industrial, etc...). The first problem is : what is the energy source to make the fuel for fuel cell ?

Thanks,

Gaby

[eazy]

Sorry tailpipe but i think that futue will not happen.
I agree with gabbby.
The problem is that it's far too expensive to produce so much hydrogen as we need to power all cars.
Another point is that all technologys we know today are too ineffective for producing hydrogen. Maybe sometime there will come the time of hydrogen, but not during the next 20 years.

Another point is, who would drive with an fuel cell vehicle? It's powerd by an battery and sounds accordingly.

I think the next hype will be around renewable fuel. That means Biodiesel and alcohol. Best example for that is Brasil. Where the oil-consumption is falling rapidly.

So, that's only my personal view about that.


greetings

eazy

[Benman]

Originally posted by eazy

The problem is that it's far too expensive to produce so much hydrogen as we need to power all cars.

Let alone the infastructure. Autoweek just had an article on gas sippers and the alternative fuels. In California, the only station that even sells corn fuel for example is in San Diego, yet our president brags about this being the next big thing? Really? Than were the heck do I fill up my car with it?

Its easy for political people to make promises to attract votes, but very few ever follow through (ala Napoleon's famous quote, "To be a great leader, you must make many promises, but keep none of them"). In the 70's during the "oil crisis" the president at that time said the same crap. "We'll look into other sources of fuel, and other ways to get our own petrol... blah, blah, blah..."

Well, 30 some some years later... how many alternative fuel stations do we have?

Ben

[gabbby]

Petrol end is the most important problem the humanity have to resolve during the next 30 years !

Yet, we can see the very beginning of the never seen world crisis ... 75$ is only the beginning.

So, what can we hope for automotive ?

The advantages of petrol are :
- really high energy per litter
- easy to transport
- easy to stock
- internal combustion engines are powerfull, low weight, mass production ready, really low cost, and needn't special materials
- there is all what is needed to distribute it
- the conversion from brut to petrol is efficient

Other source of energy haven't the combinned advantages : this is why we are at the beginning of the biggest crisis.

This topic need the opening of a new thread, for poeples that are interested.

Us, at MCE-5, we are working on an new generation of petrol engines, wich will permits a 30-35% consumption gain. But we are thinking that is not a real solution : oil crisis can be pushed of only 3-4 years if we change all the automotive with this technology. Petrol is used for many other things...

So... I'm happy that Audi have a really stunning B8 platform, and I think they will produce the best cars for the next decade with the new A4, A5, Q5, and next A6, A7, A8... but after that ?

I hope we will find a new way to maintains such dream cars, but it is not so sure ...

Gabriel

[tailpipe]

You guys need to get with the programme!!!!!

Hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element available on this planet. It makes perfect sense to use it as a source of fuel for cars. There are dozens of ways to extract it as a fuel. The $1 million question in commercialising the technology is identifying the best method of providing a ready source of hydrogen that will ultimately prove to be the most efficient and safest. This is what is presently driving research.

Once you have a ready supply of hydrogen, mixing it with oxygen via a simple electrochemical energy conversion device is relatively easy. (We have come to use the term fuel cell instead of 'electrochemical energy conversion device'.) A fuel cell converts the chemicals hydrogen and oxygen into water, and in the process it produces electricity. Honda, Mercedes-Benz, GM, Ford, VW and, of course, Toyota, all have prototype examples of simple fuel cell stacks' that work.

The 'Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cell' (PEMFC) or 'fuel stack' is only one of a variety of potential fuel cell technologies. Though some other system may ultimately prove to be better, right now PEMFCs look as if they'll be the type of fuel cell that ends up powering cars and other vehicles. (If you want to find out more about how it works, see "How stuff works.com".)

PEMFCs are attractive because they are highly efficient. This is what you gus don't seem to know. Assuming that you have pure hydrogen feeding the converter or fuel cell, you will achieve 80% efficiency (i.e very little wasted energy), whereas an internal combustion engine achieves about 20% efficiency. (i.e all the heat that goes into a radiator is wasted energy).

The big technical bottleneck is generating a source of pure hydrogen. Therefore, most R&D in this area is concerned with developing what are called 'reformers'. These are devices that enable hydogen to be extracted from other fuels that contain it, such as natural gases like methane. Even with realtively impure forms of hydrogen, produced via a reformer, it is still possible to achieve better levels of efficiency than you get with conventional petrol engines, (i.e. around 25%-30%). So fuel cells definitely have a future.

To summarise then, marketing a commercially viable fuel cell requires five technologies to be perfected:

1. Hydrogen generation (either generated on-board the car or via separate at-home type generators or at petrol stations)

2. On-board storage of hydrogen in cars (i.e. in a fuel tank as a liquid)

3. Electrochemical energy conversion devices or fuel cell stacks that mix hydrogen and oxgygen efficiently to generate lectricity

4. Battery technology to store electricity on board

5. Electric motors to transmit powerto the wheels

Of these, electric motors (5) are now highly advanced, battery technology (4) has advanced to the point whereby high capacity batteries produced in volume could be sold inexpensively. In terms of storing hydrogen on-board cars, (2) quite a few manufacturers have created highly effective hydrogen absorbing tanks that enable much greater volumes to be stored on board safely. Fuel cell stacks (3) are well on the way to commercial viability too, with Honda promising that theirs is 4 years away from the market, while Toyota is saying 2013.

The remaining bottleneck is hydrogen generation (1). And it's a major challenge. Perhaps renewable hydrocarbon fuels may be part of the solution. Who knows. But if the might of Mercedes-Benz, Ford, VW, GM, Honda and Toytota is being focused at this problem, with a least three of them committed to marketing a fuel cell car by the middle of the next decade, we need to take notice. And if they make as much progress in the next 10 years as they have in the last 5, then we can kiss our beloved V8s goodbye.

This doesn't mean that we are all going to be driving boring cars, on the contrary, I can't wait to see the 2033 Audi RS4.

[Erik]

I want a nuclear powered RS4

When can I get it? :king:

[eazy]

Interesting article about the hydrogen economy.
I haven't read the whole article but the results.

www.efcf.com/reports/E08.pdf


greetings

eazy

[gabbby]

tailpipe,

Definitevly, the fuel cell car are not on the road before 30 years min, ONLY if we have a massiv electricity energy source - because all other energy source are already used. This a real energy source crisis.

I know it should be strange. I'm working with many senior experts in automotive engine technology. I haven't the background to explain every scientific reason why (I'm software engeener), but I have retainned some point witch have no solution for many yars :

- If you want to change the entire automotiv production with fuel cell technology, you'll have to produce much more battery. To change few % of the automotiv production in fuel cell you'll have use ALL the Nickel (and other elements to build bettry and converters) of the entire world production !

For this reason, it is STRICTLY imposible to enter in mass production for fuel cells in many years.

- Seconds one : if I'm well remenbering, to maintains hydrogen as liquids, it must be very, very, very cold (-200°). When the temperature augment, the pression in the tank go to more than undreds bars ! With a lower pressure, you have a really low entonomy : with a really big hydrogen tank and a realistic pressure, you can do only short distances.

- Third, the fuel cell are not usable for everyday cars : why ? Because they CANNOT be starded ans stopped like we are doing it when we are in the city. It was some prototypes wich need hours to start ! In other word, it mean more battery, or a really sofisticated energy management that we can't build in mass production.

- The battery technology is extremly expensiv. This is also the problem for hybrid vehicles : do you know the price of a prius ? It have only 120 hp at the price of an powerfull Audi !

So... You know, our expert should explain you many other reasons why the fuel cell need actually many and many years of development befor being a solution for vehicles !

The people who said that the fuel cell are on the road in few years are trying to justify the enormous budgets allocated to the development of a such technology. The reallity is that car makers are clearly changing the strategy, and are searching to reduce consumption of traditionnal spark ingnition engines, because they know the fuel size and the distribution network is not for tomorow.

Fuel cell will be a good solution for standing energy source (local electricity production). In 25-35 year, perhaps, it start to be a reallity for cars.

Best regards,

Gabriel

[gabbby]

easy,

I've read the documents. It's a really good analysis.

It explain some points that explain why fuel cell will not be on the road for a while... But when discussing with expert, you have also some technical and physical problemes that cannot be resolved in few years.

Really good documents !

Thanks,

Gabriel

[tailpipe]

This thread was always intended to promote discussion of the next A4, not the one after that! But I am delighted to conduct what I believe is an extremely interesting discussion.

Very real barriers to fuel cell vehicles being commercially luanched still exist. I am the first person to recognise this. But the truth is each of the technical challenges is slowly being overcome. For example, the latest generation of fuel cell stacks are a quantum leap above the previous versions. Saying that such technology presents barriers that are insumountable is like saying man will never fly, reach the moon, split the atom, cure disease, and so on.

In reality, we have around 50 years of oil left based on estimates of deposits. The cost of mining new oil deposits represents a real problem for oil companies. This in itself will drive up the cost of petrol. So there is a very real need to develop a new energy source, not just for cars, but for homes and businesses. In reality the estimated 50 years of supply could be just 30, because demand for oil is escalating.

Energy companies realised quite some time ago that R&D must be prioritised around developing new sources of energy. As oil consumption has increased, the impetus to find an alternative solution is assuming a much higher priority on corporate agendas. We need a new industrial energy source NOT JUST FOR CARS BUT FOR FACTORIES, HOSPITALS, THE HOME AND EVERY AREA OF OUR LIVES.

Many new energy generation solutions have been identified. Gabby mentioned bio-fuels. They are interesting. But it is doubtful whether sufficient bio-fuels can be produced to satisfy likely world demand. Similarly wind farms are clever idea, but we could never build enough to generate the electricity we need. Besides they spoil the landscape.

At the moment, the only solution that looks like it can meet our future needs is nuclear power. Although we need to make such energy safer, it clearly has the potential to more than satisfy our thirst for electrical power. While nuclear power can provide ample electricity for towns and cities, it can also provide abundant extra electricity for cars. (The unsolved issue is what do you do with nuclear waste?)

Nuclear power can be used for the Electrolysis of Water. In case you don't know about this, the electrolysis of water creates hydrogen and oxygen in pure form. Which is just what the fuel cell cars need. Have a look at the demonstrator fuel cell vehicles of the major manufacturers to see what they have produced. (Erik, you just might get your nuclear powered RS4.)

Meanwhile, the other associated fuel cell technologies discussed above are well on their way to being perfected. By the way, battery technolgy has moved well beyond nickel. The suggestion that we could never build enough batteries is ridiculous.

Much of the research going on is cloaked in secrecy. There will be big winners among the manufacturers. There will also be big losers. Big bucks are being spent. The risks are great. So no company wants to give away its secrets until it has to.

A lot of money is being wasted on developing solutions to use petrol more efficiently. In the meantime, we are moving to a hydrogen economy. We have to, because it is the only way we can reduce greenhouse gas emission. We have to move beyond the oil age.

When someone finally puts together the missing pices of the fuel cell jigsaw, the adoption curve will be like the people buying iPods. It will happen so fast.

I am close enough to the Automotive Industry to realise that the R&D efforts being expended on fuel cell development are extremely serious projects.

This technology is less than 10 years away from the market.


Fuel Cell stack