The future of high-performance Audis?

[tailpipe]

I am sure that most of you have noticed various stories about Audi's incredible new R10 racer, which is looking very strong ahead of its debut this weekend in the ALMS race series Stateside.

It seemed strange that Audi should put an 'oil burner' in an endurance racer, but actually this decision isn't so dumb, considering how fast, agile and responsive the car is. More to the point, Audi has clearly decided that its racing program should impact its road car development. In this sense, racing not only builds brand kudos but serves as a test bed for both perfecting technologies and building consumer acceptance of them.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, there is a persistent rumour that Audi will launch a high-performance diesel engine in its line-up. The obvious models to take it are the A8, Q7 and A6. The V-12 TDI on the R10 could well be a forerunner for a similar engine in these cars and if it triumphs on the track, who knows, we could even see this engine in the road-going R8.

Behind Audi's racing program, I detect a desire to create cars that blend performance with economy. Audi is clearly leaping ahead of the competition through technology in this area. Audi's leadership through Martin Winterkorn is incredible, to the point where Audi all but makes makes the Volkswagen brand pointless. (If you want a cheap Audi, buy a SEAT or a Skoda, not a Golf!!!)

Of course, it isn't just diesel technology that is driving research. SAAB's new bio-ethanol car, which uses a fuel that is only 15% petrol, delivers 20% improved performance over standard fuels. Meanwhile, Mercedes is experimenting with a hybrid petrol/ diesel technology: the Diesotto engine, which also uses an interesting cocktail of fuels to achieve greater economy.

While everyone is looking to hydrogen for future power, the internal combustion engine seems to have plenty of life left in it. Personally, I think hydrogen-powered cars will be very exciting - when they arrive. In the meantime, I shall be very happy to drive an Audi that delivers 600 bhp and 30 mpg. What about you?

[roadrunner]

Wow - as of now, i am the only one going for the V8 TDI.

The heart would go for the V10 TT with 600 hp

But og course the TDI is the best of both - performance + fuel economy.

Why the V8 TDI instead of the V12 TDI. As Tailpipe wrote in al lighrt car and I guess, a V8 will always be lighter than a V12, this weight advantage should make up for the 50 hp less with a 30% better mpg.

Greets
Seb.

[Benman]

Originally posted by roadrunner
Wow - as of now, i am the only one going for the V8 TDI.

Not any more.

IF the V8 TDI got 45mpg ("in a lighter car") and made 550hp, that would be my choice. Since we all know Audi ain't gonna produce a "light" Audi, my bet is a TTV10 or TTV12.

Ben

[SoCal]

Another vote for V8 TDI -- because lighter car would be worth it and performance plus fuel economy worth loss of top end horse power.

That said, since it's not going to happen, second choice would be TT V10. What a rocket.

[007]

I'm sorry but if Audi put a V12 or a V8 diesel in the new RS6, I sure as hell wouldn't buy one! I'm petrol headed, not diesel!!

007

[tailpipe]

Twin turbo V8 diesel would be at least 100 kgs lighter than other options.

[007]

Originally posted by tailpipe
Twin turbo V8 diesel would be at least 100 kgs lighter than other options.

I don't care! Its going to sound like a tractor and no matter how many horse power you are going to put in it, it will still be slower than a V10 Twin Turbo! Diesels are always sluggish and all the power comes right on the red line and you have to change gear!

Please, please, please Audi, DON'T PUT A DIESEL IN THE RS6!!!

007

[Iceman]

The V12 TT TDI engine weight 275 kg.

Hans.

[tailpipe]

The diesel-powered R10 racing car just won the 12 hour race at Sebring in the USA. All the more an impressive victory because the car started the race from the pit lane. Alan McNish, lead driver of the Audi squad, said the car perfromed like a proper racing car with impressive acceleration and plenty of torque. It certainly wasn't sluggish and didn't sound like a tractor. i am looking forward to finding out how much fuel it used compared to the other runners.

[Benman]

Originally posted by tailpipe
It certainly wasn't sluggish and didn't sound like a tractor.

Amen to that! The car sounded amazing! "That's not your mother's diesel son".

Ben

[007]

O please! Its still a diesel! Do you have any idea how much diesel costs in the UK! About £1 ($2) a litre!!

I hate diesels with avengence! If Audi give you the option, so you can choose between a V10 Twin Turbo petrol and a V12 Diesel, then I would be more than happy. That way all the dull, boring, ageing people who are conserned with the environment can buy the diesel, and all the young, exciting people who don't wear tweed and smoke a pipe and don't give a **** about the environment can buy the V10 Twin Turbo Lamborghini engine version!

I HATE DIESELS SO MUCH! And I'm sorry but they do sound like tractors when you start them up in the cold! My parents had an A8 4.0TDI V8, and it felt underpowered when you revved it high. So much they now have a Jaguar XJR, which I really don't like either.

Please, please, please vote for the petrol!

007

[Benman]

Originally posted by 007

I hate diesels with avengence! If Audi give you the option, so you can choose between a V10 Twin Turbo petrol and a V12 Diesel, then I would be more than happy. That way all the dull, boring, ageing people who are conserned with the environment can buy the diesel, and all the young, exciting people who don't wear tweed and smoke a pipe and don't give a **** about the environment can buy the V10 Twin Turbo Lamborghini engine version!

Now, I'm not exactly "Mr. Environmental" either, but what's wrong with having your cake and eating it too? if they make the car sound good, it goes like stink, and gets great fuel economy to boot (which, BTW, is more than just good fuel economy, it also translates into less fuel stops, which are a pain in the arse...), then why not? I'd go that route if given the option. Also, bio diesel is sweet. In time could be cheaper than petrol.

Oh, and BTW, $2.00 a gallon for diesel? Ha, we wish diesel was that cheap. (right now close to $3.00).

Ben

[phatfocus]

Please, 550 bhp from a V8 diesel, doesnt sound very likely. Diesels can be very quick but its all about the torque. Besides, whatever they do the engine wont rev very high so wont necesarrily be much fun for enthusiastic driving either.

Diesel engines are pretty much always heavier than thier petrol equivalents.

Besides even if you can get a diesel V8 that fits into the car and is light enough and produces that much power it would probably not be feasable, diesels produce lots of dirty particulates too rember, despite being considered more friendnly than petrol, certainly wouldnt be more economical either.

As said not to metion the cost of diesel in some places. Yes you can get massive horsepower from diesel, but we are talking correspondinly huge capacities and lots of black smoke, like agricultural and industrial engines.

Myself I would say the obvious V10 or my personal choice a lightweight Twin turbo V8 with 520+bhp in a lightweight (where possible) car. Although i find this more unlikely now that BMW have a V10.

[007]

Originally posted by phatfocus
Please, 550 bhp from a V8 diesel, doesnt sound very likely. Diesels can be very quick but its all about the torque. Besides, whatever they do the engine wont rev very high so wont necesarrily be much fun for enthusiastic driving either.

Diesel engines are pretty much always heavier than thier petrol equivalents.

Besides even if you can get a diesel V8 that fits into the car and is light enough and produces that much power it would probably not be feasable, diesels produce lots of dirty particulates too rember, despite being considered more friendnly than petrol, certainly wouldnt be more economical either.

As said not to metion the cost of diesel in some places. Yes you can get massive horsepower from diesel, but we are talking correspondinly huge capacities and lots of black smoke, like agricultural and industrial engines.

Myself I would say the obvious V10 or my personal choice a lightweight Twin turbo V8 with 520+bhp in a lightweight (where possible) car. Although i find this more unlikely now that BMW have a V10.

A very valid point!

More Petrol Votes!!!!

007

[roadrunner]

Originally posted by 007
...More Petrol Votes!!!!

007

If Audi is seriously considering putting a TDI engine in the next RS6, i think that would be only as a second engine choice. I am with you, that diesel and petrol engines have different caracteristics.

Nevertheless, nowerdays with fuel prices going up and people using their RS Audi as an every day car not wanting to stop at a pump every 2nd or 3rd day - I think there would be a market for a TDI RS6 - not as the only option, but as a second choise.

What Audi already achieved with the victory at 12h Sebring - to show a wider audience that diesel engines have evolved much further than being an engine for a tractor or truck - it can win a 12h endurance race.

I wish Audi good luck for Le Mans - winning this with a Diesel race car is another leauge.

Greets
Seb.

[tailpipe]

Roadrunner,

I think you are right. There's no way Audi would offer a V-12 TDI as the only option for an RS6. it would alienate too many buyers. So, it would have to be a second option. That said, if such a car is brought to market, Audi might give it a completely different name, e.g. RSD6. in doing so they'd create an entirely new niche.

Interestingly, there is a bunch of Ex-BMW M5 owners who instead of buying the latest M5 have bought the 535d. This diesel model ultimately lacks the pace of the M5's V-10, but don't let that fool you. It is an incredible car with hard edge of performance to it. A real wolf in sheep's clothing.

I hoped this thread would encourage a healthy debate and it seems to have done just that. When revolutions start, people like 007 always say: I hate this, I'll never buy it. Then a few enlightened early adopters try it, like it, and tell their friends. Then slowly but surely the rest of us come round to it and we all wonder what the fuss was about.

It is going to be interesting to see where diesel technology takes us. Whatever, Audi needs to get a move on. As I said at the beginning of this thread, hydrogen powered cars are closer than any of us realise. Because hydrogen power uses fundamentally different components in terms of oxygen and hydrogen mixing systems, battery technolgy and electric motors, we will need to completely redefine what constitutes a performance car. Initailly such vehicles, like the first computers, will be large and ungainly. Very quickly, the weight will come off.

We should see hydrogen power in Formula One within 5 years. personally I can't wait.

[goku0815]

Diesel-Engines ARE the Future, no matter how often you try to say that you like ordinary petrol!
In Germany (Benman said he is paying 3 $ per Gallon!!!!!!!) we pay 5,50 $ per gallon!!!
Think of that and now you see why many german people want audi and all the other manufacturers to build more powerfull diesel engine cars!
BTW Opel is in development of a new diesel engine that revs just like a normal petrol engine but still has the fuel economy!
(petrol costs 6,50 $ per gallon!!)

[007]

They aren't the future! If they are then we are going backwards in technology!

007