Why I'm thinking long and hard about new S6 versus new RS4

[tailpipe]

I've heard quite a few cynical remarks about the available horsepower in the new S6 versus its weight, especially compared to the RS4. But here's the thing I just realised: RS4 engine is a 4.2 litre V-8 at its highest state of tune. The S6 has a V-10 quite possibly at its lowest state of tune. But hang on a second, isn't 400+ hbp is a lot of horses in any car? - who cares! You should easily be able to chip the S6 to coax 480-500 bhp out of it. I reckon new Rs6 will simply be a highly tuned version of the S6, with about 550 bhp, when it appears in 18 months time, so why not do it now by beefing-up an S6? What do you think?

[RXBG]

can't simply chip a NA engine and get that kind of gain. you'd have to put in an exhaust with downpipes, chip, intake, and do some internal engine work and raise the RPM max to get 550 hp out of it. my guess is that the RS6 will be a HO NA version of the S6 motor (a la S4---> RS4) +/- 5.5 liter engine displacement increase. i really do not believe it will be turboed.

[Qisha]

i really do not believe it will be turboed.

It will be!

[Klint]

Everything is going mental - Twin Turbo V10 in the next RS6, do you know how easy that would be to bring it into the gallactic horsepower territory? :MTM:

[Benman]

Originally posted by RXBG
can't simply chip a NA engine and get that kind of gain.

Yes and no.

Tailpipe makes a good point. Afterall, this is the exact same motor from the Gallardo (which makes 500hp). I doubt that Audi went to a lot of trouble to reengineer the motor just so it will make less power. Probably just set a lot of electronic "limiters" for the majority of the power loss and torque curve. Like the article on the S8, same motor but tuned differently for different cars.

That said, a chip will make some of that back, but not all of it. I don't know tailpipe. What do you think...

Ben

[freerider]

Originally posted by Benman
Like the article on the S8, same motor but tuned differently for different cars.

Ben

Actually, the S8 engine is quite different from the one in the Gallardo. Not just some changes in the ECU. There are also quite some changes made to the mechanics (FSI for example). I don't know how different the engine in the S6 is from the one in the S8 of Gallardo, but I"m quite sure it's closer to the one in the S8. Getting the hp number up will cost you some money.

If the next RS6 will have turbo's, it will be one hell of a dangerous car. As said before, minor changes will make the car have enormous amount of power. (without too much trouble into the 600-700 hp range). I love supersedans, but that's just too much for most people to handle. Quattro or not. If that's the case, I wouldn't think about the fuel prices, I'd rather worry about the prices of tyres (and insurance).

Anyway, I'm just waiting what the future brings. Everybody knows what car furfulls which function (S6 luxury fast sedan, RS4 more of a racer). The choice is for the buyer.

Greetz Johan

[Benman]

Originally posted by freerider
Actually, the S8 engine is quite different from the one in the Gallardo. Not just some changes in the ECU. There are also quite some changes made to the mechanics (FSI for example).

Not to mention the different Bore and Stroke as well. Didn't mean to sound like it was just an ECU deal, but my point was the block and main components are all the same, but it has been tuned for different needs. And yes, the S6 V10 is much closer to the S8 V10 than it is to the Gallardo. But I think tailpipe still has a point that an ECU upgrade will get a lot more than the usual NA chip provides since this motor was intentionally "held back".

Ben

[RXBG]

benman, i think you have a valid insight, but, on a different level of discussion, i just don't think that a turbocharged V10 is likely. i hate to say it but it is just too much. what mercedes is doing with the new S65 is almost an insult to the senses. where is the dynamic finesse in that car?

a gallardo engine witrh FSI (my opinion of what the RS6 will have, along with a lighter body) would make abolut 550 hp. just right, imo. others may disagree.

this is the takeoff for another point of contention for me. unless the R8 has 4 seats i don't see how it could have a V10 that makes 500 hp or more. the recently update gallardo only makes 520. and the replacement has to be at least 2 years off. the murcielago is due to be replaced before the gallardo is.

[Benman]

Originally posted by RXBG
on a different level of discussion, i just don't think that a turbocharged V10 is likely. i hate to say it but it is just too much.

I think you're right. I hate to say it as well, but I don't see it happening either. As tailpipe pointed out, the motor of the RS 6 will more than likely just be a very highly tuned version of the NA S6/8 motor. TT V10 seems too over the top.

A real shame though... I love my TT motor...

Ben

[tailpipe]

Wow, this thread has been busy while I've been sleeping!

Benman,

I agree very much with what you say. The Gallardo V-10 is an astonishing engine - vastly under-rated IMHO and certainly the equal of BMW's mighty 5.0 litre V-10 with one added bonus: it's more reliable. The addition of an FSI head simply makes a good starting point even better. As you say, remapping the ECU should reclaim a worthwhile incremental % of the power artificially lost.

That said I ALSO agree with RXBG: it will probably be difficult to push an S6 beyond 480 bhp without major tweaks at considerable cost. The question is how much power can you easily reclaim? I think that even taking it up to 460 bhp would be a worthwhile effort.

BTW, and I think Hans (Iceman) will back me up here, Audi will NOT be putting twin turbos in the RS6. I know this will disappoint quite a few current RS6 owners. But they've tested such a set up, reliably getting 600+ bhp out of it....

O:MTM:

...but the extra weight penalty mitigates the performance gain making a tuned-up version of the NA base V-10 unit a better option.

The other point to make is that you probably don't want much more than 550 bhp in any A6 model. The chassis can't handle it, neither can most drivers! So Audi is probably trying to work out the best way to deliver 550 bhp efficiently.

Also slightly off-topic. Now that Formula One has abandoned V-10s, the pressure to put them in road cars has eased off. I've even heard of Audi testing a new diesel V-12 in the A6, (obviously a motor related to the new engine in the R10 racer). We're talking about tidal waves of power and torque, but also about impressively frugal performance. Again 600 bhp.

This raises an interesting question. What engine would you prefer in the RS6:

1. V-10 NA with 550+ bhp
2. V-10 TT with 550+ bhp
3. V-12 Diesel with 550 + bhp

[Qisha]

Audi will NOT be putting twin turbos in the RS6

You are right, Audi will not set-up the new RS6 with a V10 Bi-Turbo BUT the quattro GmbH will.

This raises an interesting question. What engine would you prefer in the RS6:

a 4.2 TDI V8 with ~300HP

...hey wait a minute, this one is coming.

[Erik]

V10TT

[mr]

V10 TDI TT would be great -> highly tuned motor out of the Touareg.
I'd love to see a high - performance sedan with such a kind of a diesel engine.

I just see the loads of torque being a big problem for the transmission and all the drive shafts.
well ... maybe with some parts from Bugatti ...

we'll see

just my 2cnt

rgds
mr

[Benman]

Originally posted by tailpipe


That said I ALSO agree with RXBG: it will probably be difficult to push an S6 beyond 480 bhp without major tweaks at considerable cost.


The other point to make is that you probably don't want much more than 550 bhp in any A6 model. The chassis can't handle it, neither can most drivers! So Audi is probably trying to work out the best way to deliver 550 bhp efficiently.



This raises an interesting question. What engine would you prefer in the RS6:

1. V-10 NA with 550+ bhp
2. V-10 TT with 550+ bhp
3. V-12 Diesel with 550 + bhp

I agree with that as well... but like you say, if you can get back the 460-480hp, then it's worth it!

Why can't the A6 handle 550+hp? If it can't, why test a V12 diesel then? Torque is harsher on a chassis than hp, no?

Just like Mitsu did with the Lancer, more welds, supports= stiffer chassis (didn't ur RS 6 have additional welds as well?). Add strategic welds and braces on A6= it can handle more power.

Which would I prefer?
V10TT

Which do I think it will get?
V10NA

Ben

[minimad]

V10 TT,
if Audi take snails away from RS6, it's like Porsche remove 911 TT from the line up to me. All power and handling issue are only the matter of costs.

[CarbonFibre]

Originally posted by tailpipe
This raises an interesting question. What engine would you prefer in the RS6:

1. V-10 NA with 550+ bhp
2. V-10 TT with 550+ bhp
3. V-12 Diesel with 550 + bhp

I'll say anyone in North America won't pick the diesel because a good engine like that probably won't be able to run on the diesel we have here.

[Finnus]

I'm with Benman - prefer V10 TT, expect V10 NA.

The question is how much power can you easily reclaim? I think that even taking it up to 460 bhp would be a worthwhile effort.

Tailpipe,

Back to your original question ... why would you take a chance with the S6 unless you were certain you could produce the desired 480-500hp result? Would you be satisfied with the 400 hp (or 440 or whatever) if you couldn't? In the US, mods void the warranty. How is it treated in the UK?

I guess it comes down to how much of a risk taker you are.

If $$ were no object and performance the only issue, I would get the RS4, then switch to the new RS6 when it comes. Just my $.02 ...

Finnus

[Benman]

Originally posted by Finnus
Tailpipe,

Back to your original question ... why would you take a chance with the S6 unless you were certain you could produce the desired 480-500hp result?
Finnus

I think I'm with Finnus. Especially after you got done driving and being so impressed with the RS 4. Just get that, no?

Ben