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Thread: Intercooler blues

  1. #1
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    Intercooler blues

    Morning from Colorado. Everyone staying health I hope?

    Hey doing my version of a Muggy refresh and had some Intercoolers welded Up by Apikol and did't know the right questions to ask. Well the guys at the shop are wanting to push my car off the lift which at this point I might me in favor of. First of all can't get them in the space without moving the fender out or having the fender actually touching the IC. Second all the ducting is now longer usable as it doesn't fit and the back ducting would have to be abandoned which I don't love either. May have to return these to Apikol. So my question to all the DIY guys out there is are there any pointers you can offer and secondly has anyone used the Wagner kit that comes with fresh ducting to match the new intercooler. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks all

    DKP

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    Was Apikol able to give you any support?

    As far as I can remember, the Wagner kits seem to be the most complete aftermarket ones out there. The fact that they supply new ducting is a good indication that they thought beyond just making larger/better intercoolers.

    I had mine made with bell cores and the stock end tanks and tabs have to be welded on the cores for the stock ducts to be mounted.

    I've also worked with some SRM units that I thought were poor quality and didn't match some of the earlier ones advertised/pictured by them, where some fins were inconsistent or missing, the end tanks looked like they were cast in 2 pieces with a parting line and the mounting holes in them were tapped with M7 threads.

    Good luck.
    2010 GTI - 2004 Silver S4 Avant 6MT w/ 2.7T conversion
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    Thanks SteveKen

    Didn't want to Bash anyone but guys at my shop called Apikol and they were absolutely no help. Seemed very uninterested in offering and tips or pointers. May just return those to Apikol and do the Wagner kit. Were the Bell cores you used the same size as stock or larger. Wish someone just made the stock size core to make it less of a struggle.

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    Been very happy with my Wagners...PO installed less than a year before I bought it from him. Nice fit, seem to be solidly constructed, and the carbon ducts that they supply fit well too.





    Stinks about Apikol, thought they knew their RS6 stuff, but maybe not!

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    Thanks for the pictures and fitment affirmation. The guys at my shop are confident they repaired mine. Minor leakage but was replacing them as the engine was out. So decided to put it back together and when I do my next timing belt service I’ll replace them at that time. Did the PO ditch the rear shrouds with the Wagner’s or modify them. I did find a pair of NOS IC in Germany that I’m pondering as well. Just add them to my pile O parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKP View Post
    Thanks SteveKen

    Didn't want to Bash anyone but guys at my shop called Apikol and they were absolutely no help. Seemed very uninterested in offering and tips or pointers. May just return those to Apikol and do the Wagner kit. Were the Bell cores you used the same size as stock or larger. Wish someone just made the stock size core to make it less of a struggle.
    I used Bell P/N A300090100 which are pretty much flush in thickness with the end tanks.

    You can actually go the next thicker size and 'stretch' the welds.
    2010 GTI - 2004 Silver S4 Avant 6MT w/ 2.7T conversion
    2012 Q7 TDI S-Line - 2007 A3 3.2 S-Line
    1977 Honda CBR 750-F2 Super Sport -> cafe racer project on the mothballs

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKP View Post
    Thanks for the pictures and fitment affirmation. The guys at my shop are confident they repaired mine. Minor leakage but was replacing them as the engine was out. So decided to put it back together and when I do my next timing belt service I’ll replace them at that time. Did the PO ditch the rear shrouds with the Wagner’s or modify them. I did find a pair of NOS IC in Germany that I’m pondering as well. Just add them to my pile O parts.
    Unfortunately any rear shrouds that may have been there are gone...not sure if it makes a difference that mine has the hot climate package with the radiators behind the IC's.

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    Yea after seeing my car apart my guess is with the new thicker IC the rear shroud would have to get cut down pretty severely. But your auxiliary radiators are still in the car correct. Boy i tell you the parts hunting with these cars is becoming a full time job. Now I can’t find any EGT sensors. Wanted to replace everything I could while the engine is out. My EGT’s are throwing codes periodically. Anyone have any tips on EGT sensor supplier.

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    I had issues with my EGTs a few years ago. Rather than pay the price for new OE ones, I replaced the PCBs with ones from http://www.sidmotorsport.pl/. I believe someone here on the forum recommended them. I don't think they advertise them on their site, you have to email sidaudis4@gmail.com. Andre's communication was prompt, and I think the total turnaround time was around one month.

    You just have to de-solder the old boards (I want to say there are 5 solder points?) and then install the new ones. No too difficult.

    Three years later mine are still working fine.
    RS6 #1, 01E, 2.5" straight pipes, AMD Stage 1 6MT tune, 460awhp/530awtq on AMD's Mustang dyno. TOTALLED.. RS6 #2, Ebony Black Pearl on black/silver combination with carbon, up and running with 6 gears and AMD tune.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKP View Post
    Yea after seeing my car apart my guess is with the new thicker IC the rear shroud would have to get cut down pretty severely. But your auxiliary radiators are still in the car correct. Boy i tell you the parts hunting with these cars is becoming a full time job. Now I can’t find any EGT sensors. Wanted to replace everything I could while the engine is out. My EGT’s are throwing codes periodically. Anyone have any tips on EGT sensor supplier.
    Yeah, my secondary rads are still in there...haven't had EGT issues (on this car) ... yet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muggy View Post
    Yeah, my secondary rads are still in there...haven't had EGT issues (on this car) ... yet...
    I didn't know I was having issues until we pulled codes. My shop said they won't ever trip a check engine light but will automatically dial back the turbos if your really putting the car through the paces. Like track work or high speeds for long periods of time. I found one of the sensors in the states. Will keep looking for another,

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKP View Post
    Yea after seeing my car apart my guess is with the new thicker IC the rear shroud would have to get cut down pretty severely. But your auxiliary radiators are still in the car correct. Boy i tell you the parts hunting with these cars is becoming a full time job. Now I can’t find any EGT sensors. Wanted to replace everything I could while the engine is out. My EGT’s are throwing codes periodically. Anyone have any tips on EGT sensor supplier.
    If I ask the guys at the shop to wait another month for parts I think my car might mysteriously fall off the lift. That being said I will explore the option for the future. Thanks for the tip

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    With a stock car & a non-stock tune you should be fine with just deleting them, if your calibrator knows what he's doing.
    Even though I usually recommend getting them fixed or replaced anyway.

    With a complete stocker - you have no options, but to get them fixed.
    Stock calibration always runs the engine super lean to the point of regularly tripping EGT sensor enrichment thresholds.

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    Nubcake you have to forgive me I build houses for a living and sometimes the RS6 lingo goes over my head. What has to be calibrated. Are you saying tricking the computer into thinking everything is OK? My car is bone stock.

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    I think nubcake's point is that the stock tune runs on the lean side, and with this, the EGT's can get up there under a long load pull that make the sensors tell the computer to add extra fuel. In this case, you need the sensors in tact so they work as they should to save the motor from running too lean in these situations. If you are not familiar with fueling, there is a fine balance of too little or too much fuel in which can be different in every running situation (starting, idle, cruise, hard pull, decelerations). Too much, and the car will run cooler, but will be sluggish and have less power...then there is a sweet spot in the middle with strong power and proper running....too little and the car will run lean and can get very hot which can cause damage.

    With a custom tune from an amazing tuner here on the boards, , extra fuel can be added in the right situations so it doesn't run as lean as the stock tune. If you don't run too lean, then the EGT's will stay lower, thus making the sensors unnecessary as they'll never reach the thresholds to add that extra fuel. A custom tune isn't tricking the sensors, it's making the car run richer when needed so the EGT's aren't getting too hot to trip the sensors.

    As far as I know, and others may correct me, the EGT sensors are more of a failsafe in an emergency situation (lean running on hard pulls for instance) and not used to control normal operations like a MAF, coolant temp, crank position, or O2 sensor does with constant input to the ECU. The car is happy to run without input from the EGT sensors if they are tuned out properly so the ECU isn't thinking that they are disconnected or not working correctly (achievable with a custom tune).

    Hope this is helpful.

    Again, I could be wrong with this assumption, but maybe the codes that you see are just saying that the EGT sensors were activated (but are not broken), showing that you did have a lean situation from time to time as nubcake says is common with the stock tune under hard pulls. My old car was a 2.7t A6, and the sensors were faulty...this put the car into limp mode that cut boost way back and added fuel...it was very obvious...the car ran fine, just no real power. I put some diodes in there to trick the ECU into thinking they were fine (I know, ghetto fix, but helped to identify the issue) and the car had full boost and power. Limp mode put it at about 5-6 psi on the boost instead of 16-20.

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    So much learning. Thanks Muggy. Very enlightening. My car has never been in limp mode so maybe it's as you say they are working and only reporting that they were activated. I'll run it by the shop and see what the scan read out said. I wonder if the scan would say faulty or activated? I did find one of the sensors so will replace that one for sure and continue my search for the other. So who is this Obi Wan Tuner you speak of and how does one going about this process. We have 4 RS6's in the Vail valley and my shop works on all of them I believe so he has been fairly well educated but that might be out of his comfort zone.

    Thanks again for the insights.

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    Muggy's mostly correct.

    Although, if there's a code for EGT sensors - they're going (gone) bad.
    Triggering high temp thresholds is considered "normal operation", so no codes will be stored for that.

    The tuner he's talking about is yours truly.

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    Thanks for the clarification Nubcake. So I've found one of the sensors new and I'm not to keen on it but I found the other one used. Not thrilled about used. As my shop guys said you already have a used one. Says its been tested so who know how long a used one would last. 2 weeks or two years.

    So whats the procedure for getting you to recode my ECU and what are the estimated costs. I'm fine with my stock car power etc so nothing special on the tune. I hear lots of chit chat about the TCU tune. Any advantages to that with a stock car?

    Thanks

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