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Thread: Muggy's RS6 Refresh 2020

  1. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muggy View Post
    I also get the clattering sound at 1000-1300 rpms on both up and down throttle...I've been told that this is "normal", but still quite annoying on a modern motor.
    That's your cam chain tensioners (de-)activating.
    It's actually the chain rattling.

  2. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nubcake View Post
    That's your cam chain tensioners (de-)activating.
    It's actually the chain rattling.
    Thanks nubcake...that's what I thought...hopefully new chains and tensioner shoes will help at least a little bit by taking up a slight bit more slack...

    Still hoping that I can diagnose the hydraulic follower racket as well, I'm pulling the cams as soon as I have a couple of hours, hopefully this weekend.

  3. #21
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    So, I was able to get some time to work this weekend...found a surprise here and there, plus confirmed a suspicion on my head clatter.

    First up, I've been resisting wiping anything off until I could actually work on the part/area to diagnose any leaks or issues...Audi motors seem to weep a little everywhere, and I plan on replacing all seals, o-rings, etc,...but still good to know the problem areas to focus on. First surprise find was to come across a frozen cam belt hydraulic tensioner...it was an aftermarket part that looked pretty new, so could have been on the most recent timing belt job, which I was told was about 8k ago (3 years) by P.O. The tensioner was frozen solid and is a NTN part...unfortunately this seems to be the brand of choice in most timing kits out there...



    Next up was the usual weeps...and a little antifreeze crust...all of these seals will be replaced along with the water pump and thermostat...









    And a final cleanup after documenting the mess....



    And now more important than the usual cleanup for one of these jobs...I've had an intermittent cold start hard tap when very chilly out and sitting for a couple of days along with what I feel is a slightly noisier than it should be valve train. I understand about the cam phasing and chain rattle, but this has been a telltale lifter noise, at least from my experience in the past with other vehicles. In any case, after removing the cams to do the chains and tensioner pads, it was obviously the ideal time to check the hydraulic followers. I haven't been able to find much out there on how to check these, so I just did a basic compression/squish test in my fingers. What I found was that I have 2 on one cylinder (forget the cylinder #, but closest to the driver) that would compress much easier and to full compression with just a squeeze. Now I understand that there are different levels of failure which could be a very slow leakdown to total collapse, and that the car hasn't run in a few months for the rebuild, but when only 2 out of 40 do this, I'd say that it's a pretty conclusive examination, especially since this has been a noisier area of the head when running.

    Good follower uncompressed:



    Good follower compressed:



    Bad follower uncompressed:



    Bad follower compressed...notice bottoming out to mechanical limits:



    Side by side uncompressed:



    Side by side compressed:



    I did peek into the rocker arm with a mirror and didn't see any debris, scummy oil, etc....very clean, but may need to pull the rocker arm bars out to confirm that they are absolutely clean. Not sure which side is fed with oil pressure, but doubt it's a coincidence that 2 on one rocker arm failed at the end (or beginning) of the rail. Does anyone know if there is any pressure regulation to the rocker arm rail? Hard to photograph the inside of the rocker arm, but very clean oil and no debris visible...





    Now the dilemma...do I replace just 2 (or all 3) followers for just this cylinder on the intake side, or go for all of them...at $27-$29 each...you get my point...

  4. #22
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    I don't believe lifter failure is a regular thing with these cars, although what you are describing sounds pretty mild. I have occasionally had a mild "tic" for a few minutes on start-up after letting the car sit for more than a week or so. I would probably only replace any lifters that seem suspicious since again, I don't think they fail that often. If your thought is correct that it has something to do with being at the end of the pressure line, then that would also support just replacing those.

    Are you going to replace the front main seal? I did this when mine was apart, and it's an adventure! Mainly because the crank bolt has a ridiculous torque setting. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it's essentially "really damn tight, then go another turn!" I had to wait until the engine was bolted back in because there is no way I could have applied the necessary torque with the motor on a stand. I also fabricated a custom locking bar for the pulley because I did not trust using the lock pin. It really is a crazy amount of torque! Oh, and I also used the project as an excuse to buy a really beefy impact gun, since you'll want one of those to help get the old bolt out. I'm happy to share the details of my lock-bar setup, if you want.

  5. #23
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    Appreciate your thoughts....Got the front crank bolt out, but I agree, probably an engine in re-torque! Honestly the rear flex plate bolts were worse...especially since there are 10 of them...my neck muscle was seizing up and twitching by the time I was done since I had to hold the front and back of the breaker bar so it didn't swing the motor too much on the hoist...now I know what the HULK felt like when he started to twitch out!

    I hate the thought of replacing 40 followers, especially at $27ish per piece! That said, it's an engine out project to do it again. I had a pretty significant lifter tap on some cold starts and just an annoying tick in general, so I may just do them all...we'll see how deep the pocket is now that I'm collecting parts in batches of $500-$800 per package. Thought it was bad enough to need 14 new turbo studs and bolts at $30ish per stud/nut...

  6. #24
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    Alright...what do you do when you can't sleep thinking about the path of oil through your motor? ~ You get up and go out to the garage at 4:30 in the morning and take some stuff apart!

    So what I've found is the followers that seem to have failed are at the end of the rocker bar as far away from the oil inlet as possible...you can see in the pic, the large oil journal in the far end of the bar I would assume is the feed, and then in the very end of the bar one rocker away in the opposite direction is a smaller hole for the outlet. There are obviously small holes in the bar for each rocker that feed each follower, but mine in question are basically at the end of the bar that most likely don't really get any flow through, but kind of the end of the run that just gets pressurized. I could be totally speculating here, but I can see how the oil just sits at that end and just gets put under pressure each time you start up, where the rockers in the middle of the run get oil circulation as well, not just pressure. The oil did weep out of the holes under my rocker in question, and I wasn't about to fire up the compressor this early in the morning to blast a shot of air, but I suspect that it is not clogged with anything, just maybe a slight failure in design. I could see a better flow through the rocker bar if it had an outlet at each end for oil to flow completely through in a circuit, not just pressurizing one end and flowing through the other. All that said, I'm sure that some oil does flow though the rocker bar at all points as it lubricates the rocker arms, but not at the volume of the opposite end from the inlet to the outlet...sorry for the winded explanation, but I couldn't find anything else out there on this, so figured that at some point, someone may find this helpful in the future...

    Pics showing my ramblings this morning...notice the location of the oil feed in comparison to where my failed followers are at the opposite end (last 2 followers in the run)...



    And the outlet for the flow at the opposite end of the bar from my point of issue...



    And now my biggest dilemma of the day...replace just the followers at the end of the run (all 3 on last rocker), do the same on the opposite side of the motor too, or replace them all...
    Last edited by Muggy; September 29th, 2020 at 11:46. Reason: Morning ramblings...

  7. #25
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    I'm voting for "replace only the failed ones".

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nubcake View Post
    I'm voting for "replace only the failed ones".
    And thanks GreggPDX for the same vote...sounds like I'll probably just do the 3 intakes on that rocker....woohoo...$90 instead of $1200...I can work with that!

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    Piles of parts coming...damn, this car has a ton of o-rings, seals, and one time use bolts....


  10. #28
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    This might be out there already, but would you want to create a list for everything you replaced in this procedure? Part numbers, what failed, what was preventative, this would be great information for all of us. Possibly as a wrap up post when you complete this.. Then when I start the same thing come help me...


    Quote Originally Posted by Muggy View Post
    Piles of parts coming...damn, this car has a ton of o-rings, seals, and one time use bolts....

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  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevcp View Post
    This might be out there already, but would you want to create a list for everything you replaced in this procedure? Part numbers, what failed, what was preventative, this would be great information for all of us. Possibly as a wrap up post when you complete this.. Then when I start the same thing come help me...
    Thanks for the suggestion...I need to go through all of the parts bags today to make a list and cross check all of my o-rings, gaskets, crush washers, etc. to be sure that I have everything that I need...nothing worse than getting to a spot where missing a simple o-ring or the like can hold up a project. As we all know, there is never one source for every part that you'll need. I did find one issue while sorting through parts...the Iwis timing chains that I bought from ECS are the wrong part...it is listed properly on the box and cross checks with all other sites, but the sticker put on there (most likely by ECS) is covering the Iwis manufacturer's number. Again, cross checking from multiple sites since I could see through the label, it looks like they miss-labeled the wrong part with their sticker mistakenly showing as the correct number. Fortunately, these are easy to get, so I got another pair of off Europa with some other needed parts that should be here today and can return the others to ECS hassle free.

    As far as working with yours...I'd be more than happy to help with it! I have a pretty solid tool collection from years of working on stuff at home and being fortunate to inherit a solid tool set from my dad when he retired...He owned a Shell gas/service station with 3 bays for 36 years...I started working for him when I was 12 and all the way through college. He had 2 brothers that worked for him as his primary ASE certified mechanics for just about all of this time...definitely all 3 were mentors to get me to my knowledge level today. I'm always happy to share my knowledge, time, and tools with anyone that is willing to put in the effort themselves as well. Both of my boys 24 & 26 now, are now very capable mechanics as we always worked on projects together and I'm very proud of them! I have another young man that is the son of one of my managers at work, I've know him his whole life and is now 17 and wanting to work on his own car that he bought himself...I had him doing the brakes, exhaust, tune up, oil change, etc. to get it through inspection and road worthy and now helping him work through a rough idle issue. He just got his license yesterday and so excited to be able to drive a car that he purchased with his own savings and is able to work on with a little guidance...unfortunately his father is a decent mechanic, but estranged from his family as the kids have made the choice to have nothing to do with him. I'm happy that even though he's a shy kid that he now feels comfortable reaching out to me for help...

    I'm taking my project slow and steady as I don't generally have chunks of time right now and just wanting to be sure that I do everything correctly...this project would be far easier the second time around for sure. Also, you're more than welcome to take a short road trip up my way to Annapolis to check out the project as it sits...for me, I like to visualize what may be causing an issue but like to have it in my hands before just ordering a pile of parts that I may not need. As we know, parts for these cars are not cheap and you really need to be careful on what you can source aftermarket or if OEM is the best choice, no matter what the cost difference is. This would be a prime time to see mine as dis-assembled as it will get this time around if you want to see it as it sits.

    One other mini-fail that I found on parts...It's hard to get an answer on the cam tensioner shoes on which ones to buy as there is no OEM replacement without buying the entire adjuster. I ordered 2 sets from RKX...parts shipped fast and looked perfect, but when I went to snap them on to the adjuster, it turns out that they are slightly rounded in the molding where there should be a sharp shoulder to snap it on to the base...I couldn't get it to lock on solidly and then noticed this issue. I ordered another set off of e-bay after scouring for photos of the underside and a close up of this area and found some that looked correct...they were perfect and snapped on solidly as they should. Fortunately these are cheap parts, but you get my point on what you really need to watch out for. While searching, I saw on 1A Auto's site in a review that they suggest "gluing" these on since their molding leaves it loose when you install it...sorry, but I'm not gluing anything on which wasn't done so as originally installed!

    Here's a link to the "good ones" from Osias....https://www.ebay.com/itm/2PC-Camshaf...72.m2749.l2649

    Hopefully moving forward this weekend with putting parts back on as I'm running out of space with everything that I've removed! I'll definitely plan on re-capping this info in the end as you suggest to hopefully help make this process a little easier for someone else in the future.

  12. #30
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    I do not think you can easily know which follower is bad, by just squeezing them together.
    Because if the valves are open on 1 cylinder, then there is pressure there, so then the oil is squeezed out of these followers if the engine is switched off and stands for a while.


    In the same way, you can now with a pair of pliers or in a vice you can compress those that are hard so the oil seeps out and then it becomes as soft as these you think are bad.

    When I disassembled my engine, I pushed everyone together to get out of the old oil and then every follower became soft.
    But if there is debris in the hole, it will not be filled with new oil, so try to check this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS8 View Post
    I do not think you can easily know which follower is bad, by just squeezing them together.
    Because if the valves are open on 1 cylinder, then there is pressure there, so then the oil is squeezed out of these followers if the engine is switched off and stands for a while.


    In the same way, you can now with a pair of pliers or in a vice you can compress those that are hard so the oil seeps out and then it becomes as soft as these you think are bad.

    When I disassembled my engine, I pushed everyone together to get out of the old oil and then every follower became soft.
    But if there is debris in the hole, it will not be filled with new oil, so try to check this.
    I appreciate these thoughts and have been contemplating the same situation...the only thing that leaves me suspicious on this area is one of the 3 on the intake was still firm, but I totally agree that this could have been under load when shut down (valves open on the intake) and could have done a slow leak down which is not unusual. I do get a pretty good knock on rare occasions on a very cold start for about 20-30 seconds in this area, so hoping for the best when replacing all 3 on this cylinder....not too bad for $100 to try it out, but $1200 to do all 40 is nuts!

    Hoping to have some time to work on it this afternoon and I'll focus on checking into these further as you suggest!

  14. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevcp View Post
    This might be out there already, but would you want to create a list for everything you replaced in this procedure? Part numbers, what failed, what was preventative, this would be great information for all of us. Possibly as a wrap up post when you complete this.. Then when I start the same thing come help me...
    If Muggy wants to put a list together, I'll add it to the maintenance section on my website. Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by lswing View Post
    If Muggy wants to put a list together, I'll add it to the maintenance section on my website. Cheers
    Sounds good! Gives me even more motivation to compile the list...

    I did pull my oil cooler off to change out the "bufkin" pipe...found the original plastic one in perfect condition, but figured I'd change it out for the aluminum version. Unfortunately, Mr. Bufkin is no longer selling these, so I opted for a nice looking copy....no fly...waaay too tight of a fit... ordered another OEM plastic one with new gaskets to replace what was in there.

    Got side tracked yesterday, so I didn't have much of a chance to work on the car except for pulling the oil cooler off as above. Found a house for my son on Saturday night (just listed same day), we toured at 11:00 on Sunday, offer in by 5:00, was the top contract out of 4 that came in within 24 hours, seller accepted ours!

  16. #34
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    I just caught on to this thread and will be following closely, very informational. As an RS6 owner, and if you plan on keeping the car, we will all go through this or already have. Please do a part inventory at the end if you have a chance, it will definitely help some of us i am sure and keep the pictures and progress coming! Stay safe and i hope your business will come out of this Covid craziness in one piece.

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    Thanks rah...I'll definitely put together a list of part numbers that I've collected so far and keep the progress coming! I'm glad that you are finding this helpful...that's my goal along with getting input here and there as needed myself. I knew that the parts would add up both in quantity and $$$...especially with all of the o-rings, crush washers, and one time use bolts that Audi likes to use! I've had to cross check things here and there, but for the most part, I've been able to find everything without too many issues, just not all from one vendor...that is unless I just ordered everything from JimEllis...but that would probably at least double the budget so far.

    Another "while I'm in there" part that I picked up was a new power steering pump....I've been having a whine for a while and then a nasty growl on occasion. I did try and flush out the fluid with the proper Pentosin CHF11s, which didn't really help (wasn't low, no leaks). In any case, with the motor on a stand, all of the lines disconnected, and the fluid drained, seems like the perfect time to swap the pump. I found a brand new (not reman and no core charge!) ZF pump on Europa's site for $399 (up to $419 now a day later)...I'll probably also upgrade to the Pentosin CHF202, which looks like the "newer" synthetic fluid that is backwards compatible with the 11s in case of any residue that I can't get out.

    Hoping to get some time to really get a bit of real progress on the car...with Covid, my business model has been turned upside down, but at least I still have my primary 18 staff members fully employed with no layoffs or salary cuts. Being in the food service industry...we've been very lucky overall...the catering side is of course next to nothing, but slowly picking up with 4 weddings this past weekend (but all smaller of course)....and our gourmet-to-go business is booming while still operating curbside for pickups. We do higher end carry out and have done so for the last 30 years...I have a fantastic customer base that has been very supportive. That said, the new way of doing business is posting daily rotating and seasonal menus and taking 30-40-50 orders via email every day that we fill first come-first served...this keeps me tied to my desk 6 days a week for hours every morning. In the past, we took some pre-orders, but most was just walk-in ordering of what we made fresh each day, so I had a LOT more flexibility in my schedule. Oh well, as I said, I have a great group of long term employees that obviously rely on their paychecks (and customers that say they'd starve if we closed!), so I'm not complaining!

    Now back to RS6 stuff! One tidbit that I found out which I could never find a straight answer on...the turbo hot side housings...I didn't know if they were the same casting or different as they look identical and are stamped with the same number. What I can see is the casting looks to be the same, BUT, the waste gate actuating lever is different. Not sure if these are swappable or not, but I would say no without a lot of effort.

  18. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muggy View Post
    Thanks rah...I'll definitely put together a list of part numbers that I've collected so far and keep the progress coming! I'm glad that you are finding this helpful...that's my goal along with getting input here and there as needed myself. I knew that the parts would add up both in quantity and $$$...especially with all of the o-rings, crush washers, and one time use bolts that Audi likes to use! I've had to cross check things here and there, but for the most part, I've been able to find everything without too many issues, just not all from one vendor...that is unless I just ordered everything from JimEllis...but that would probably at least double the budget so far.

    Another "while I'm in there" part that I picked up was a new power steering pump....I've been having a whine for a while and then a nasty growl on occasion. I did try and flush out the fluid with the proper Pentosin CHF11s, which didn't really help (wasn't low, no leaks). In any case, with the motor on a stand, all of the lines disconnected, and the fluid drained, seems like the perfect time to swap the pump. I found a brand new (not reman and no core charge!) ZF pump on Europa's site for $399 (up to $419 now a day later)...I'll probably also upgrade to the Pentosin CHF202, which looks like the "newer" synthetic fluid that is backwards compatible with the 11s in case of any residue that I can't get out.

    Hoping to get some time to really get a bit of real progress on the car...with Covid, my business model has been turned upside down, but at least I still have my primary 18 staff members fully employed with no layoffs or salary cuts. Being in the food service industry...we've been very lucky overall...the catering side is of course next to nothing, but slowly picking up with 4 weddings this past weekend (but all smaller of course)....and our gourmet-to-go business is booming while still operating curbside for pickups. We do higher end carry out and have done so for the last 30 years...I have a fantastic customer base that has been very supportive. That said, the new way of doing business is posting daily rotating and seasonal menus and taking 30-40-50 orders via email every day that we fill first come-first served...this keeps me tied to my desk 6 days a week for hours every morning. In the past, we took some pre-orders, but most was just walk-in ordering of what we made fresh each day, so I had a LOT more flexibility in my schedule. Oh well, as I said, I have a great group of long term employees that obviously rely on their paychecks (and customers that say they'd starve if we closed!), so I'm not complaining!

    Now back to RS6 stuff! One tidbit that I found out which I could never find a straight answer on...the turbo hot side housings...I didn't know if they were the same casting or different as they look identical and are stamped with the same number. What I can see is the casting looks to be the same, BUT, the waste gate actuating lever is different. Not sure if these are swappable or not, but I would say no without a lot of effort.
    I cannot give you an answer on the hot side of the turbos, i have not dealt with that at all but i would assume that they are from the same casting, but i guess assuming with the RS6 is a bad habit!

    As far as off subject and life of a restaurant, i imagine that a strong customer base and community base helps tremendously! I am not in that business but my brother is, being the general manager of a restaurant wine bar, higher end and really has been relying on its customers to make it through this time. It is still hard since they are and very good wine bar and getting bottles to go has not been an option. They are set for re-opening in the near future but nothing yet, their space is smaller at both locations and have been relying on carry out.

    I am glad you are able to keep your people going and yourself. Good luck with your business and will be watching the RS6 refresh development as it unfolds!

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