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Thread: OMG, another 6MT conversion thread.

  1. #37
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveKen View Post
    I assume that you are going to use a new replacement when you re-install it? Check to see that the accompanying stud is inserted far enough. If too much of it is sticking out, then it could be hindering the amount of bite you have on the inner hex. I've also seen replacement nuts that look like long shafts so that the hex is outside of the manifold. I might have some lying around here somewhere....
    Hah. You assume correctly sir. I've ordered the newer longer manifold fasteners that fit the manifold recesses as per the suggestion of @GreggPDX earlier in the thread. They should arrive tomorrow.
    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  2. #38
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    While waiting for other bits'n'bobs I got to disassembling the front of the motor in prep for a full timing belt change - cleaned her up a bit too...




    And, also the valve covers in prep for changing all gaskets and seals - and also the tensioner pads.
    Look what I found though...






    Notice anything? Yeah, the 'L' and 'R' painted references (AFIK it is not factory procedure to label them in this fashion). And clean! There is barely any varnishing on the hardware (I recently had the valve covers off the Allroad with similar mileage (100k-ish) and the difference between that and this is night-vs-day). These heads have been either reconditioned or replaced entirely - and I'd guess, sometime in the last 20-25k miles.

    The valve covers are original though...



    The valve covers show the varnishing you'd expect from a car with 100-ish thousand miles under its belt - and that's after a degreasing and washing down.

    I wonder what happened?

    The previous owner kept a very good record of maintenance - although he was the second owner and acquired the car at around 85k miles. Records from the previous owner clearly have a few gaps because there is nothing to suggest this level of work (and expense). But it does explain the utterly ruined manifold bolts.

    I don't think I'll be changing the tensioner pads. The tensioners look like they were replaced at the same time - and the pads still look new. That makes things easier. I will still do the half moons, caps and cam seals since I'm in here though.

    It kinda suggests a snapped belt (or broken belt roller) that, in turn, led to catastrophic valve damage - necessitating head replacement. That can't have a been a cheap repair.


    Couple of questions to the grouo:

    I noticed no sign of RTV sealant on the gasket or head surface. On the 2.7T's it is considered a good procedure to use RTV sealant at the lower corners of the cover and in the valleys between the tensioner actuator and the end-cam-cap. Is this not the case for the RS6 4.2? (there was no sign of leaking anywhere - not at the half moons, the cam seals, the tensioner gasket, or the valve cover gasket).

    Also, what are the correct bolts for the crank pulley? (mine had a mix of 6mm m8 hex that were all stripped and triple square m8's of different lengths) (it took me over an hour to get the hex bolts out - all stripped and no room for EZ outs. bah.
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    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  3. #39
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    BTW: @SteveKen - thanks for sharing the photo's of the mods you've had to make to the trans mount and axle heat shield. I'd not seen reference to those before, and it's good to know what's coming. Very helpful.
    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  4. #40
    Registered User hahnmgh63's Avatar
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    Same as the 2.7t as far as the sealant goes. Factory manual shows just a small button of sealant in all of the corners you mentioned where the gasket makes a sharp angle (cam tensioner). My Crankshaft pulley is held on by the triple-square.
    Although at 71k, my valve covers looked cleaner than those in your picture (after cleaning). I think a lot of it has to do with the oil being used and the frequency of change. I use Redline 5w-40 and change it about every 5~7k.
    2003 White RS6 2013 Midnight Blue S5
    2013 Daytona RS5 2x944 Turbo's 1974 911 w/'91 3.6ltr motor
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  5. #41
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    I'm not saying your motor hasn't been apart recently but I had the same sharpie L & R on the two BCYs I have in my possession. Change the tensioner pads! You truly don't know the history, especially with the shoddy work/mismatch hardware. Added peace of mind you won't have to tear it apart again so soon. Just ask Jolio.

    Use a bit of RTV on the cam seals.


    BCY #1 ~101k miles




    BCY #2 ~59k miles


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    03 RS6 Avus/Ebony #905593 resurrected 6MT, 04 Avalanche Z71, 87 T-Bird Turbo Coupe (351W T5), 04 Aprilia RSVR Factory

  6. #42
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethridg View Post
    I'm not saying your motor hasn't been apart recently but I had the same sharpie L & R on the two BCYs I have in my possession. Change the tensioner pads! You truly don't know the history, especially with the shoddy work/mismatch hardware. Added peace of mind you won't have to tear it apart again so soon. Just ask Jolio.
    Oh, now that's interesting. Maybe that is factory procedure to label them that way. Actually, now that I think about it - it's not that surprising, given that these limited edition motors were all assembled by Cosworth, by hand, in the UK. Sloppy Brits (kidding).

    I'm still of the firm belief that the heads on mine have been apart and reco'd (or replaced). The varnishing is not consistent between the valve covers and the head hardware. My heads look closest to your 59k miles version (yet mine have 106k miles on them). Still, point taken about not knowing the history - I'll change the tensioner pads. Thank's for the nudge @bethridg.
    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  7. #43
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    Well, crap. Note to all messing with chain tensioners - don't compress the pistons too much, or it could get stuck - real stuck.

    Removed the chain tensioners to replace the pads. One done fine - but the other, not so much. As I was pressing hard to get the pad on, the piston went so far down into the chamber that it got stuck. No worries, just pull it out. Except it wont come it - nothing get's it out. In my attempt to retract, I broke one of the guide posts (cast aluminium - it didn't take much to break it). Sucks! Anyone been here before? Or am I the only chump?



    So, a replacement is ordered (a used one from Wolf Auto - I don't feel good about trusting one of the the cheap AMZN/eBay ones - thoughts?), but I can't proceed under the valve covers until it arrives.
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    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  8. #44
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    In the meantime, these arrived (starter blanket, and the newer longer manifold fasteners for the recesses) - so I can get back to the part of the procedure.

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    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  9. #45
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    Paging @SteveKen

    I'm testing the mesh of the starter, but doing so by pulling out the pinion manually. I don't want to test crank and turn it over as I've got the crankshaft locked and the cams are out while I wait for the replacement tensioner - but I do want to button all this up and get the gearbox on. Can you eyeball this and give your blessing:



    The pinion teeth find their place at about half way in. As best as I can tell (by examining the scouring on the stock ring-gear, that's about where things were with the stock-starter/auto).


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    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  10. #46
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    I think what you have in the picture looks good.

    I've never had any issue with starter engagement, even though there is some wiggle room. Axially it's fixed and the guide says it shouldn't protrude past the back of the ring gear on the flywheel. half to 2/3rds into the flywheel is optimal, so this is built into the adapter.

    Radially, there is some wiggle room.

    How do you currently have it attached now without the transmission in place? I keep a bolt that matches the thread in lower starter hole of the block (M14 x 1 I think) to get the bottom completely centered and try to eyeball the top based on where I think it's centered as it pivots on the lower hole. Then with that lower bolt tightened, I actually run the starter using a makeshift harness to crank over the engine to check engagement. I've never had to adjust one, though with everything just visually centered. If you just have it attached with an M12 and a nut then you can't install the adapter & transmission unless you remove it and you have to readjust it again.

    The starter can stay locked into position for mating the transmission if the temporary bolt on the lower is flush or protrudes a mm or so. Then when the trans and adapter are in place you can remove the lower bolt after the top is tightened and then use the lower 120mm bolt and nut to sandwich everything together.
    2012 Q7 TDI S-Line - 2010 GTI - 2007 A3 3.2 S-Line - 2003 RS6
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  11. #47
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    Ok, good.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveKen View Post
    How do you currently have it attached now without the transmission in place? I keep a bolt that matches the thread in lower starter hole of the block (M14 x 1 I think) to get the bottom completely centered and try to eyeball the top based on where I think it's centered as it pivots on the lower hole.
    I'm doing exactly that. For the bottom bolt, I'm using a long wheel-lug bolt with a cone shoulder - which ensures a centered fit and does not protrude. For the top, I eyeballed-it as as I could with an eye-line through the ring-gear to the pinion teeth - and that got me the result you see above.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveKen View Post
    Then with that lower bolt tightened, I actually run the starter using a makeshift harness to crank over the engine to check engagement.
    I can't do that with my cams out. So, I'm just going to go with how things are based on nothing looking our of order.

    Thanks Steve.
    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  12. #48
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    Great project and great work too. Love this kind of work.... cleaning and updating

  13. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by redwoodkiwi View Post

    I can't do that with my cams out. So, I'm just going to go with how things are based on nothing looking our of order.

    You could actually crank the engine over if all the cams, timing belt and plugs are removed. All the valves will remain closed so there's no risk for interference.

    It's probably not worth it unless you wanted to do a cold compression or leakdown test. I've fond that leakdown testing isn't reliable all the time when the cams are installed since the adjusters could never let all 5 valves completely close when I want them to. Anyway, I digress.
    2012 Q7 TDI S-Line - 2010 GTI - 2007 A3 3.2 S-Line - 2003 RS6
    2001 Honda S2000 - 1977 Honda CBR 750-F2 - 1965 GMC 1500 WideSide

  14. #50
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    Not a lot of progress during past couple of weeks - the focus shifted to the C5 A6 6MT race-spec Lemons car in prep for last weekends '24 Hours of Lemons Arse-Freeze Apalooza' endurance race at Sonoma Raceway. Torrential rain on the first day made for a stressful race - but we did well overall.

    This is us:



    Anyway, with that now behind me I hope to find a little time in-between navigating the usual holiday madness typical of this time of year. Today I did get the tensioners in (including the replacement one) with new pads, all new seals under the valve covers, a full timing belt front-end job - and got Steve's adapter plate onto the gearbox.



    A fine pice of work it is too.
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    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  15. #51
    Registered User hahnmgh63's Avatar
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    I would think that the Quattro would shine during the rain. I know on my 944T trackcar the rain scares me on the track, and I live in the NW so I should be more use to it than most.
    2003 White RS6 2013 Midnight Blue S5
    2013 Daytona RS5 2x944 Turbo's 1974 911 w/'91 3.6ltr motor
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  16. #52
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    Yes, being Quattro we did very well in the rain. The stress was in avoiding the carnage occurring all around with other cars spinning out and leaving the track in very slick conditions. The field comprised 136 cars - so very busy, especially in the corners. The second day, while still wet, was less treacherous and things settled down. It was actually the first race we completed without something catastrophic happening and taking us out for an extended period (like disintegrating CV axles or shearing tie-rods, etc). There were at least four 944's in the race - but we easily got around them in the rain.
    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

  17. #53
    Registered User hahnmgh63's Avatar
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    Were the 944's Turbos or normally aspirated cars? I'd have to look up the rules but I was thinking the 944T's weren't allowed for some reason?
    2003 White RS6 2013 Midnight Blue S5
    2013 Daytona RS5 2x944 Turbo's 1974 911 w/'91 3.6ltr motor
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  18. #54
    Registered User redwoodkiwi's Avatar
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    Not entirely sure whether NA or T - but, at least one of them of them had an LS1 transplant (and very hard to keep up with). Regarding rules for 24 Hours of Lemons: there are few of them, and most are to do with safety not performance. The fundamental rules: You have to prove you acquired your car for no more than $500.00 (if the judges suspect you spent more, then you will get penalty laps and you will be shamed). You can spend as much as you like on anything from the hubs out (brakes, wheels+tires) and on safety (full roll-cage, fire suppression, harnesses, kill switch, fuel cell, race seat, etc - are mandatory) - but anything you spend on improving performance that doesn't look like it came in under the $500 acquisition cost will earn penalties. A lot of teams cheat their cars to the max and don't really care about the penalties (most of the BMW e30's and spec-Miata's fall into this category) - they are just in it for the low-cost wheel-to-wheel experience - others, like us, respect the Lemons spirit and stay within the rules (for that, the judges like and respect us, and go easy on us during black-flag situations, etc). Essentially '24 hours of Lemons' is for cars that shouldn't really be racing, and for teams that don't take things too seriously. We race a fat-executive luxury sedan that has no business racing - and it's incredibly good fun! .
    Audi RS4 B7, Audi RS6 C5, Audi Allroad 2.7T C5, Audi S4 Cab 4.2L 6MT B6, Audi A6 6MT 2.7T C5, '77 Mercedes 450SEL

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