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Thread: whats really happening in the USA ?

  1. #37
    Registered User MikeL01's Avatar
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    Its my opinion that the situation in the States may be a bit over-hyped by the press and politicians. In my partof the Country, Civil and Heavy Highway construction is booming and and our employees have had as much overtime as they wanted throughout this peroid. Most have worked 50+ hours per week. The stores in the area are crowded too. Maybe we have just faired better. Turboluvr...Its cool to have another "Hard Charger" on the Boards. Semper Fi,
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    Last edited by MikeL01; June 13th, 2009 at 14:35.
    All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best- Occam's Razor

  2. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHall1 View Post
    Nobody should make 100 Million a year. A bank CEO or NBA star. Period.
    I'd like to comment on this. As it pertains to CEOs, the bulk of that kind of compensation is from the exercise of stock options, which have appreciated over time. Salary and bonus (cash compensation) comprise a relatively small portion of overall compensation in this instance. So, the CEO only "makes" money if the stock appreciates, which means the shareholders make money, too. Furthermore, what you don't know is what the exercise price was and when the options were granted. So, these shares could have been granted years ago at exercise prices that are higher than market price at the time (e.g. 10 years ago, the incentive stock options were granted at a price of $115, but the stock price at the time was $100...today the stock price is $200, thus the CEO makes only $85, though $200 is reported). And, on top of that, the CEO pays cap gains taxes on that of 15% (surely to go up). So, the CEO who "makes" a lot of money, has made a lot for his shareholders, too.

    However, as it pertains to sports stars and entertainment celebrities, I am aghast that they get paid so much. That said, that's the free market at work. So, fundamentally, I don't have any issues with it. If you don't like it, don't patronize them. Stop going to games. Stop watching Oprah. Stop drinking P-Diddy's (or whatever name that moron is going by now) Vodka. Or wearing Paris Hilton perfume. Or wearing Kimora's clothing line.

    CW

  3. #39
    Moderator Benman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeL01 View Post
    Its my opinion that the situation in the States may be a bit over-hyped by the press and politicians. In my partof the Country, Civil and Heavy Highway construction is booming...
    Those "businesses" mentioned are all tax dollar based, so not apples to apples comparison. Government spending is NOT prosperity. It is part of the problem.

    Ben
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  4. #40
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    Yes and no,

    If you say a portion is options and incentive based. That is the crux of the problem. Do you think the numbers reported the last 3 years were legit? AAA Securities? Alt-A loans? Well, those revenues reported from those areas were the #1 reason that we ran up the markets. Now, were these guys making that 100 million on above board dealings?

    There is another of my problems. All the poor saps that have 401ks and have invested with brokers and just gave their money to "someone else" Got the hose job.

    I didnt. My naked shorts did just fine.....

    And yes, I do not go to any professional sports games. Ever. Oh wait, if a doc gives me his tickets for a game and I go free....does that count? Then once in 46 years I have been to a NBA game. I like to go out in the real world and make my own fun. Mtn Biking, road biking, hiking, traveling in our motorhome.

    Quote Originally Posted by CornersWell View Post
    I'd like to comment on this. As it pertains to CEOs, the bulk of that kind of compensation is from the exercise of stock options, which have appreciated over time. Salary and bonus (cash compensation) comprise a relatively small portion of overall compensation in this instance. So, the CEO only "makes" money if the stock appreciates, which means the shareholders make money, too. Furthermore, what you don't know is what the exercise price was and when the options were granted. So, these shares could have been granted years ago at exercise prices that are higher than market price at the time (e.g. 10 years ago, the incentive stock options were granted at a price of $115, but the stock price at the time was $100...today the stock price is $200, thus the CEO makes only $85, though $200 is reported). And, on top of that, the CEO pays cap gains taxes on that of 15% (surely to go up). So, the CEO who "makes" a lot of money, has made a lot for his shareholders, too.

    However, as it pertains to sports stars and entertainment celebrities, I am aghast that they get paid so much. That said, that's the free market at work. So, fundamentally, I don't have any issues with it. If you don't like it, don't patronize them. Stop going to games. Stop watching Oprah. Stop drinking P-Diddy's (or whatever name that moron is going by now) Vodka. Or wearing Paris Hilton perfume. Or wearing Kimora's clothing line.

    CW

  5. #41
    Registered User MikeL01's Avatar
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    Ben,>>
    25% of our projects are Government funded with very small margins and now have a multitude "stimulus" strings attached that makes them very unattractive. The majority of current and up-coming projects are private sector expansion. I am optimistic that things are starting to look up here in fly-over country.>>
    All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best- Occam's Razor

  6. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeL01 View Post
    . The majority of current and up-coming projects are private sector expansion. I am optimistic that things are starting to look up here in fly-over country.>>[/FONT][/COLOR]
    Well that is good to hear.

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  7. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by CornersWell View Post
    Stop watching Oprah. Stop drinking P-Diddy's (or whatever name that moron is going by now) Vodka. Or wearing Paris Hilton perfume. Or wearing Kimora's clothing line.

    CW
    It’s amazing 2 c the kind of ppl that have been built up as role models these days. Australia is just as guilty 4 promoting ppl that r not worth the time of day.

    Guys,I know that an Australian has absolutely no business talking about America’s economy but I have been doing business in the US 4 over 10 years & based on what I have seen & talking 2 colleagues & friends in the US,the situation over there is VERY bad.Far worse than what is being reported by the biased media. Now it could just b the West Coast (where I have worked) is severely affected (highly doubtful) but based on what I am seeing.....It doesn’t look good.

    Yes,recessions r a natural & essential part of all economies but this current down turn cannot b compared 2 previous downturns.

    To make matters worse,this is still rising http://costofwar.com/ & there is no end in sight.If u didn’t have this 2 deal w/ as well I wouldn’t b so concerned but things r not going 2 simply blow over in time.I hope things get better in the US because when America sneezes the Australian economy catches cold too...But I am not very optimistic about the future of both of our economies.

    Maybe I am being overly dramatic or maybe it takes someone from outside with a neutral view 2 see things more clearly?

  8. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHall1 View Post
    Yes and no,

    If you say a portion is options and incentive based. That is the crux of the problem. Do you think the numbers reported the last 3 years were legit? AAA Securities? Alt-A loans? Well, those revenues reported from those areas were the #1 reason that we ran up the markets. Now, were these guys making that 100 million on above board dealings?

    There is another of my problems. All the poor saps that have 401ks and have invested with brokers and just gave their money to "someone else" Got the hose job.

    I didnt. My naked shorts did just fine.....

    And yes, I do not go to any professional sports games. Ever. Oh wait, if a doc gives me his tickets for a game and I go free....does that count? Then once in 46 years I have been to a NBA game. I like to go out in the real world and make my own fun. Mtn Biking, road biking, hiking, traveling in our motorhome.
    ISO compensation is not the crux of the problem. ISO compensation was used more heavily in response to government taxation of executive compensation. If you remember, years ago, the Federal Government wanted to put a surcharge on compensation over $1MM. The market end-ran it with ISOs. However, the dual purpose is to align executive interest with that of shareholders. So, when shh make $, the executives make money. And, vice versa. That said, you're correct in that accounting issues crept into the mix, as executives sought to pump up and get their bonuses. So, who's fault is that? And, all executive compensation has a current cash portion and a longer-term equity portion, for the most part, now. This is specifically designed to reduce the problem of short-term money-grabbing. Does it work? Not perfectly, but the managing executives do have limitations on and windows when they can sell.

    However, and here's the flaw in your logic (if there is one), they're not omniscient. They don't know when the market will crater or take off like a rocket. While they may have a better sense than the average investor on the street, no one can time the market perfectly. So, they have a considerable amount of their net worth tied up in the shares of the company the work for and are generally under-diversified. They will sell when 1) they can and 2) they think things are turning down. They can buy anytime. So, it's always useful to watch the insider activity.

    As far as what was reported over the last three years, GAAP was generally fine, even though management could "manipulate" and "smooth" earnings to some extent, UNTIL SarbOx turned up in response to Enron, Worldcom and other fiascos. Now, with mark-to-market FASB 157, the swings are more pronounced. And, in the context of what's gone down due to 157 mark-downs, it's also true that when things improve (note, I didn't say if), there will be lots of 157 mark-ups.

    And, specifically, you seem to focus on one industry, although perhaps you were making a general observation and comment. The market is not perfectly efficient. The market will never be. It's true that the regulatory gaps in the home loan origination and securitization markets were taken advantage of. But, while it may take two to tango, in this instance I think it took 20. It took borrowers who knew they were borrowing too much, it took loan originators to lend too much, it took banks to over-participate, it took Ibanks to make it happen, and it took government to create a political atmosphere that encouraged irresponsible lending and failed to rein it in. Lots of culpable parties. And, each one took what they could. So, it's kind of unfair to try to pin it on just a couple of players. That said, I certainly wish they had been more strict with lending. Everyone involved, that is.

    And, it's true that most investors have taken a bath. For now. If you're paying attention, for the year, we're back in the black. So, we're scratching our way back. It won't be quick, though, and there are some real issues that I don't think we've addressed, yet. It will be unfortunate for those who bought high and sold low for whatever reasons, because they won't participate in a recovery whenever it might happen. Structurally, though, I have issues with the way brokers are compensated. I think they ALL suck. And, I'm in VC and PE work. Even these guys are crooks on some level.

    Naked shorts are great, if you have the risk tolerance for them. I'm happy for you that you've done well with them. Many simply can't afford the losses if they turn bad on them. Moreover, again, it's a timing issue. Since you can't time the market perfectly, you have to have the war chest to cover any losses if and when you get out. Your war chest may run out before you're proven right and the market goes down. I struggled with Google. I KNEW their share price was just off the charts and unjustified. However, to short them was to go against the market. And, going against other investor's perceptions.

    Anyway, I wasn't actually addressing the comment about patronizing sporting events to you, in particular. Just in general.

    CW

  9. #45
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    Very detailed response. Thanks

    To clarify. The numbers reported by the banks during the high times were correct. The problems grew from bad lending and all the folks fueling that fire. Again your correct. GAAP is and was being followed for the most part and yes mark to market has put a damper on the party now that all these loans are in default.

    To clarify my naked short remark. My primary use of this practice is on the option side. Typically in a vertical postion that is hedged. Either up or down by selling/borrowing the Put or Call. It must be watched very close even with the hedge cover. These are mostly 1-4 day postions on stocks with movement and in a range.

    Example. (DVN) Go have a look at that bad boy.

    Quote Originally Posted by CornersWell View Post
    ISO compensation is not the crux of the problem. ISO compensation was used more heavily in response to government taxation of executive compensation. If you remember, years ago, the Federal Government wanted to put a surcharge on compensation over $1MM. The market end-ran it with ISOs. However, the dual purpose is to align executive interest with that of shareholders. So, when shh make $, the executives make money. And, vice versa. That said, you're correct in that accounting issues crept into the mix, as executives sought to pump up and get their bonuses. So, who's fault is that? And, all executive compensation has a current cash portion and a longer-term equity portion, for the most part, now. This is specifically designed to reduce the problem of short-term money-grabbing. Does it work? Not perfectly, but the managing executives do have limitations on and windows when they can sell.

    However, and here's the flaw in your logic (if there is one), they're not omniscient. They don't know when the market will crater or take off like a rocket. While they may have a better sense than the average investor on the street, no one can time the market perfectly. So, they have a considerable amount of their net worth tied up in the shares of the company the work for and are generally under-diversified. They will sell when 1) they can and 2) they think things are turning down. They can buy anytime. So, it's always useful to watch the insider activity.

    As far as what was reported over the last three years, GAAP was generally fine, even though management could "manipulate" and "smooth" earnings to some extent, UNTIL SarbOx turned up in response to Enron, Worldcom and other fiascos. Now, with mark-to-market FASB 157, the swings are more pronounced. And, in the context of what's gone down due to 157 mark-downs, it's also true that when things improve (note, I didn't say if), there will be lots of 157 mark-ups.

    And, specifically, you seem to focus on one industry, although perhaps you were making a general observation and comment. The market is not perfectly efficient. The market will never be. It's true that the regulatory gaps in the home loan origination and securitization markets were taken advantage of. But, while it may take two to tango, in this instance I think it took 20. It took borrowers who knew they were borrowing too much, it took loan originators to lend too much, it took banks to over-participate, it took Ibanks to make it happen, and it took government to create a political atmosphere that encouraged irresponsible lending and failed to rein it in. Lots of culpable parties. And, each one took what they could. So, it's kind of unfair to try to pin it on just a couple of players. That said, I certainly wish they had been more strict with lending. Everyone involved, that is.

    And, it's true that most investors have taken a bath. For now. If you're paying attention, for the year, we're back in the black. So, we're scratching our way back. It won't be quick, though, and there are some real issues that I don't think we've addressed, yet. It will be unfortunate for those who bought high and sold low for whatever reasons, because they won't participate in a recovery whenever it might happen. Structurally, though, I have issues with the way brokers are compensated. I think they ALL suck. And, I'm in VC and PE work. Even these guys are crooks on some level.

    Naked shorts are great, if you have the risk tolerance for them. I'm happy for you that you've done well with them. Many simply can't afford the losses if they turn bad on them. Moreover, again, it's a timing issue. Since you can't time the market perfectly, you have to have the war chest to cover any losses if and when you get out. Your war chest may run out before you're proven right and the market goes down. I struggled with Google. I KNEW their share price was just off the charts and unjustified. However, to short them was to go against the market. And, going against other investor's perceptions.

    Anyway, I wasn't actually addressing the comment about patronizing sporting events to you, in particular. Just in general.

    CW

  10. #46
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    Extended Stay Hotels file Chapter 11.

    Commercial real estate anyone? Bonds? Anyone?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124507864459215309.html

  11. #47
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    Dont ever try to bring down a democratic mayor of a state capitol

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/1...ashed-another/

    Maybe we need more "czar's" instead.

    This one is better. Dont you think there is some left over poop on that hand?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_214715.html

    http://moelane.com/2009/06/17/let-us...pin-situation/
    Last edited by DHall1; June 19th, 2009 at 08:01.

  12. #48
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    I love this guy's quote:

    "That aside, why are we surprised? Isn’t this the Chicago way? The way of every political group that has gained power making the arguments Obama did last fall? Did anyone ever think that those who think putting a remarkably dishonest guy in charge of Treasury would not be likely to keep IG’s on a short and quite politicl leash?"


    Ben
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  13. #49
    Registered User Trebor's Avatar
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    Is complex, however

    Reward for poor performance – Unaceptable
    Poor performance hitting the masses, undeservidly – Unacceptable
    Living beyond your means – Unstainable
    Paying back the the bailout capital – inevitable
    Hiding from the truth - Reality

  14. #50
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    Ben,

    You like eh?

    While were on the subject or to change alittle.

    Why is it ok for Fannie and Freddie CEOs to make millions and millions and millions of dollars to support insolvent business models while we the people continue to pay into the failed business models?

    I think were at 500 Billion and counting.

    But now the admin is calling for pay caps?

    :cool2:

    Quote Originally Posted by Benman View Post
    I love this guy's quote:

    "That aside, why are we surprised? Isn’t this the Chicago way? The way of every political group that has gained power making the arguments Obama did last fall? Did anyone ever think that those who think putting a remarkably dishonest guy in charge of Treasury would not be likely to keep IG’s on a short and quite politicl leash?"

    Ben

  15. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHall1 View Post
    Why is it ok for Fannie and Freddie CEOs to make millions and millions and millions of dollars to support insolvent business models while we the people continue to pay into the failed business models?
    Frank Raines (ex-Clinton pal) is the former Fannie CEO and was charged with accounting fraud. He settled with DoJ for his stock in Fannie, IIRC. Or, at least a significant portion of his stock. Funny thing is the stock is worthless!

    Anyway, how can it happen? Easily, unfortunately. There's great difficulty in evaluating a CEO's performance. Their plans, programs and strategies play out over years and decades. It's hard to judge whether they're successful until the chickens have come home to roost, so to speak. So, Raines could pass the buck to his predecessor and not face the music of his own poor decisions. The only reason Raines was charged with anything was because it was an immediate money grab and the direct relationship between what he did and why he did it (higher earnings = higher bonus). If it hadn't have been for this, he'd almost certainly been untouchable under the Business Judgment Rule (BJR).

    I think, also, the way we compensate plays a role. More equity, more risk in the failure of the business. OTOH, there's more upside if there's success. So, guys like Raines were clearly given too much cash. However, give more equity, and the compensation guys (and Congress, too, apparently) will freak out that they're making too much compensation. There's no happy middle ground.

    What is SO infuriating, though, is 1) why the press has moved on and let these executives essentially get a pass and 2) that there is a glass floor and CEOs (and other senior executives) seem to continue to have opportunity after opportunity even after they've clearly been proven to have made bad decisions along the way. Think of "Chainsaw" Al Dunlap. Or Gil Amelio. Or Bob Nardelli. They ALL ran multiple companies into the ground. Once they fail, they should be ashamed. And, their careers should be pretty much over as a hired executive. But, they're not.

    As Warren Buffett has said, "I only want to invest in companies that idiots can manage, because one day an idiot will be running it."

    CW

  16. #52
    Registered User Trebor's Avatar
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    Best One yet

    Quote - As Warren Buffett has said, "I only want to invest in companies that idiots can manage, because one day an idiot will be running it."

    Fantastic insight & oh so true

  17. #53
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    Red Roof Inns have defaulted on 361 million of debt. They are leveraged a total of 1.2 Billion.

    Anybody want to buy some bonds for pennies on the dollar?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124578596153843175.html

    I think the best move is plywood. There going to need lots of plywood to board up all these businesses.


    Quote Originally Posted by DHall1 View Post
    Extended Stay Hotels file Chapter 11.

    Commercial real estate anyone? Bonds? Anyone?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124507864459215309.html

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    Exit stage left....

    Everyone,

    Dont worry, it will be all right. We will make up the lost tax revenue by taxing your sorry asses even more.

    http://www.clubforgrowth.org/2005/08...ii_dont_th.php

    If you cant learn from history....you never will learn anything.

    I still own property in Oregon. Why? many of the same reasons above.

    0 sales tax vs 9% in AZ
    20 dollar car tags on the RS6 vs 800 in AZ
    80 dollar motorhome tags vs $5000/yr in AZ

    The list goes on. You get the idea.

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