B9 Audi A4

[youry]

and they forget to mention about the new 4.0 L V8 TFSI engine which we know is goignto be released in the new A8

[tailpipe]

Yes, Tyrfan, but I'm trying to read behind the marketing hype published by the magazines to understand what is really going on. What car companies tell journalists is primarily dictated by the need to sell cars rather than tell the truth!!!!

Though I know people in the industry, both within Audi and key suppliers of Audi, even internal Audi employees don't know everything. It's how company secrets are kept secret. But educated guesswork and debate can uncover what is really going on. That's why this forum is so interesting.

In the article you quoted, it says that A8 will use the MLP architecture not the MLP platform. This seems to suggest that MLP is not a single chassis but a series of parts - like Lego that can be used together. You have a basic 3-box structure: engine compartment, cabin structure, and rear end. Different variations allow for a variety of models to be produced very inexpensively because the key component 'hard points' are all located in the same place. For example, look at the Lamborghini Estoque and compare it to the Porsche Panamera. The proportions are almost identical. What these designs also show is that while the platform can be extended in length, it can also be extended in width.

If this is correct, and of course, it is only a hypothesis, then it is right to assume that the bias between FWD and RWD and AWd can be tuned depending on the model.

[AndyBG]

Audis high positioned managers of lots of countries don't know NOTHING but stupid press releases, about Audis future plans...

[Cargo8]

Audi has stated that they will never make a RWD car because it is plainly unsafe (it is in a quote somewhere); then again, M Division said they'd never make SUVs...

[tailpipe]

Martin Winterkorn (now head of entire VW Group) when he was boss of Audi wanted to move A4, A6 and A8 over to rear-wheel drive back in 2004, but plan was vetoed by Bernd Pischestreider (ex-head of entire VW Group).

The alternative was to develop radically dynamic FWD solution, i.e. gearbox in front of engine to that entire motor could be behind front axle. This is what was promised with MLP. Unfortunately, while it moved the engine back, it did not do so by enough to significantly enhance weight distribution and handling balance. In other words, MLP was a HUGE disappointment. Reason for half-hearted effort was engineering cost.

This is why A4 is still no dynamic match for 3-Series or C-Class without Quattro. Even with Quattro there is a weight penalty that introduces other compromises such as economy. I know die-hard Audi fans will refute this comment, but it is the consensus view of the motoring press. Last year, BMW still outsold Audi globally so customers seem to share the same view.

The failure of MLP to deliver a radical solution has damaged Audi's credibility. A4 is thus still viewed as a more expensive VW not a true competitor to 3-Series and C-Class.

The question is what will Audi do next? RWD or better FWD balance with revised MLP? I am looking forward to hearing the answer.

[roadrunner]

...

This is why A4 is still no dynamic match for 3-Series or C-Class without Quattro. Even with Quattro there is a weight penalty that introduces other compromises such as economy. I know die-hard Audi fans will refute this comment, but it is the consensus view of the motoring press. Last year, BMW still outsold Audi globally so customers seem to share the same view.

The failure of MLP to deliver a radical solution has damaged Audi's credibility. A4 is thus still viewed as a more expensive VW not a true competitor to 3-Series and C-Class.

tailpipe, i really value your opinion & infos, BUT now we start to turn in a circle.

Yes, BMW sold more than Audi in 2008, but the gap narrowed (especially if you take Mini out of the equasion). This would be an indicator of increasing appeal of Audi to the customers, not otherwise. and all this whitout RWD

And A4 being a more expensive Passat, cammon - you know better than that. This might have been true for the Passat predesessor, which used the same longitutonal plattform of the A4, but not nowadays. Audi achieved a big leap with the B7 A4 (i know, that it was baasically a FL, but a major one).

And how can you compare the B8 A4 to the Passat is beyond my understanding (leaving size aside, which is not a performance criteria for me). The look & feel, finish and image are way appart. Not talking about the handling.

[AndyBG]

This is why A4 is still no dynamic match for 3-Series or C-Class

It is dynamic match for those two, but only in ''small power'' units, (2.0 TDI 143 and 1.8 T)

A4 is thus still viewed as a more expensive VW not a true competitor to 3-Series and C-Class.

Can't agree on this one with you, B8 A4 is HUGE leap forward for Audi, and many people, never considering Audi, gonne for B8 A4.

[tvrfan]

B8 A4 has a great handling. ive driven the 2.0 TDI 170hp front. and it has a nice cornering. audi would never build a RWD car. audi has created MLP. audi isnt so dump to devoplment such a expensive car platform and cancel it for RWD layout. this wont happen. ALSO if audi would go RWD layout then the Quattro will be not be the same as before. because the torsen diff. wont fit in RWD layout. so the quattro on RWD platform wont be as good as before. SO audi wont throw there heritage away. customers will go away then. that wont never happen. audi knows that and will be not so stupid.

[tailpipe]

Guys,

There's a big difference between what you and I believe and what the market believes. Ultimately, it is the consensus behaviour of buyers that defines an objective perception of Audi's performance relative to competitors. We are all Audi fans, which is why we enjoy this forum of discussion. But whatever we believe, subjectively or objectively, market facts speak for themselves.

According to most motoring journalists, both the 3-Series and C-Class handle better than the B8 A4. That's what buyers read. And if people want the best handling car, they may choose a BMW or Mercedes above an Audi. But what sales of these cars tells us is that customers value other qualities above RWD handling. Build, reliability, technology, interior design, exterior styling and so on are all important.

Audi's rapid growth and increased market share shows that the sum of an Audi's parts is greater than a BMW's. While Audi has been doing great things, BMW is stagnating. Meanwhile, Mercedes-Benz is beginning to recover its reputation for quality so remains a threat.

Yes, B8 A4 is a huge leap forward, but other brands, like Lexus, are also moving ahead. Personally, I don't think B8 A4 is an expensive Passat - but there are plenty of people who do. That's the point.

So what this discussion is ultimately about is: WHAT MUST AUDI DO TO CHANGE PERCEPTION OF ITS CARS SO THAT IT IS SEEN AS A SUPERIOR BRAND TO BMW AND MERCEDES-BENZ?

Adopting rear wheel drive must be considered as an option, but if it is rejected, the decision must be very well explained to customers, because Audi's competitors are all telling their customers that FWD is inferior.

For the record, I think the A4 is a very, very good car (I also think the Passat is excellent too!) - but B8 MLP was not the technological leap forward I hoped it would be. I think moving the engine back further would have had such a significant effect on handling that Audi would have won the FWD versus RWD debate without adopting RWD. Was MLP was a decision driven by the need maximize volumes and minimize costs OR the desire to create a better driver's car? HMMM.... INTERESTING QUESTION.

Will Audi ever adopt rear-wheel drive? Well, never say never. Let's see, shall we.

[AndyBG]

You have point. And, as I earlier said, I don't have nothing against that if Audi goes RWD way, with ''quattro'' as option of course.

[tvrfan]

You have point. And, as I earlier said, I don't have nothing against that if Audi goes RWD way, with ''quattro'' as option of course.

when audi goes RWD then for A4, A6, A8, A7. otherwise it wouldnt make sense. but look if audi would do that. quattro will be no the same with fwd layout. as i said with RWD layout the torsen diff wont fit with RWD layout. so audi must design the quattro completly new. and maybe the quattro will be not so good as before. audi cant do that and they know it. because few customers will go away. also look if audi has RWD platform. does make quattro sense then? not for me. look at E92 M3 with RWD. it puts the power down very well. also with downsizing the future engines wont probably be so powerful as yet. and also the weight will go down. so with RWD layout Audi doesnt need quattro for next RS4, RS6, RS4 (the list goes on). so quattro will be dead. do you know what i mean? i think audi has just quattro for RS models or S models because FWD wont handle the power and the handling would be incredible. that means with RWD audis the quattro doesnt make sense than before

[AndyBG]

Well, does that lead us to a question, do we need ''quattro'' at all...?

[AndyBG]

So, after horse power wars, are entering the ''downsizing wars''...?

http://www.leftlanenews.com/audi-s4-...-cylinder.html