Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but:
FF- front-front
MR - mid-rear
FR - front-rear
am I right?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but:
FF- front-front
MR - mid-rear
FR - front-rear
am I right?
Yes.
Not in my experience. The only time it oversteers is after momentary understeer. The front suddenly grips and the rear slingshots itself round.Originally Posted by Leadfoot
Not in my experience. Your theory is correct for FWD but in practice it just isn't that simple. Regaining control of either a 200SX, RWD skyline or AWD skyline is far easier than regaining control of say a Mondeo or a Vectra. The thing to note is the method by which the rear end is lost. RXBG hit the nail on the head, you have to go stupid to lose the rear with FWD but when it does happen the car's basically gone. I've done a lot of airfield experimentation with this. The problem isn't helped by the fact that most FWD cars have sod all torque or power to pull you out. You might have more luck with a touring car or something.Originally Posted by Leadfoot
I'll take your word for that. I've only had a few laps in a 355 on a track day gift package and I wasn't about to start practicing with the rear end. Back in the '90s people would actually have given a shit if a 355 was written off.Originally Posted by Leadfoot
Only in certain types of fwd cars. You have to remember that most cars including fwd ones are by design meant to push the nose (understeer) when you go to fast. But the kind that have a playful tail are the kind you see on trackdays, mostly Honda Type Rs of one sort or another but you could include the new Mini, the Focus ST and RS, the Golf GTI MkV and the TT 2.0TFSi among a few.
Sorry but it is that simple. I have driven the Fiesta Rallycar on quite a few occasions and the style of driving is almost identical to either the Subaru (AWD) or any RWD car you care to name. The tail is used in the exact same way to control the car and once it's sideways you use the throttle to bring the nose wide and regain control, it's that simple.
The same technique is used on the track when the tail steps out (by design), the only difference is that most fwd cars are not designed to throw the tail, only the nose and most people aren't knowledgeable to know what to do when the occasion arises, most hit the brake which is what not to do, when that is done the tail keeps going, but the same is true for rwd as well.
The simple truth is that with both awd and fwd you can control the car with a much greater slip angle than you can with a rwd car, regardless of make or model.
Trust me, I know this from experience. The pendulum effect is extremely difficult to control and it's really only present in mid and rear engined cars. But in their defence you do have to drive them differently and their ability in the dry and wet are very similar, more so the mid-engined car.
Search and you will find the truth.
You're talking about a rally car and you're talking about more sporty FWD cars that can give more progressive oversteer. The average FWD cars will not handle like that and simply don't have the power to pull the car straight and in the wet will not have the traction to do so either. When the front end boat anchors itself, it will just pitch the rear end around almost instantaneously. I've driven a fair few so I'm speaking from experience here. At times the rear end may not even be touching the road during an FWD oversteer, and if it is, probably only with one wheel and that's part of the problem - no/little rear end grip to stop the rear from swinging.
Given the choice between catching RWD oversteer and FWD oversteer, I'm going with RWD everytime.
Yes I know I am talking about rally cars and fwd cars which by design have a more playful rear end and your average Mondeo wouldn't be as easy to recover but the same is true for any rwd with little power, in the occasion when it's tail goes it isn't power which has caused it and there is not the power to control it either. So what you get is a tank slapper when the rear finally regains grip which it will and that steering lock which you have turned into the slip with throw you off the road.
Really we are picking holes here, this is a Car forums about hi-powered motors, the type which us guys are interested in, so playful fwd cars are the ones I at least am talking about.
Search and you will find the truth.
There aren't really any truly powerful FF road cars. Why? Traction. I'd like to experiment with some of the more powerful FF cars as I'm not convinced that they'd be any easier to correct. Cars like the 306 GTi6also ended up in a hedge more often than not.
I guess it depends on the oversteer mechanism. If the FF car is somehow set up for gradual oversteer, which is difficult, then your theory holds true. However, traditional FFs understeer strongly at first and then snap oversteer when the front bites. The latter is much harder to correct.
Last edited by Z07; September 30th, 2008 at 12:39.
I agree there isn't too many powerful FWD cars and it's traction that's the problem. But I disagree that they are any more difficult to make oversteer gracefully than anything else. The reality is that most people are average at best and understeer is the easiest telltale sign that ultimate grip is being approached. The reason that most FWD and AWD car understeer is that most people brake when shit happens, that's fine when it's the nose that has let go but it's a disaster when it's the tail which have let go.
The snap you are describing is the equivalent to a tank slapper with a rwd car, the outcome is just as problematic for the average driver and just as dangerous.
Search and you will find the truth.