Nissan GT-R Ring time-7.29min...

[7:53 RS6]

So, you claim that you and your friends are better drivers then Horst?

OK...

Since you have that much Ring experience(I do not and I just had a chance to speak twice with Horst since one of my best friends works for Motorpresse) do you know what 7.29min actually means?

BTW, Horst is pretty agressive when he is ALONE in the car on the Ring... With you or me as a passegner he simply can not be that agressive...

To answer your question if my friend that drive the 550hp CSL on the ring is better than HvS....YES. HE IS.

He is a former ETCC champion, he is a several STCC champion.
He is slightly, slightly outlaping Hans Joacim Stuck in Schubert Motorsport BMW Z4 M racecar on the ring, also outlap Stuck junior and Claudia Hurtgren...eh they all do drive the Shubert Z4m race car on the ring. He is doing 24H this year as well in the Shubert team. HvS is also driving VLN in a Honda at times, he is a Motor presse guy, HVS is NOT a proffessionall driver, my friend is.

Yes I would know very well what 7.29 mean, I can very much see the GTR at that pace around. You seems to forget that HvS is just a car mag editor, he drive lonar cars, wich he would moast likely be happy to deliver back after the supertest in one pice to the owner that gave him the car in the first place.

Do you think the susuki guys care less if they put the GTR in the Armcro when pressing on for the superb marketing world wide low ring lap time, well I think NOT, its their car isnt it.

And last, even a hobbydriver as my selv logg higher Vmax than HvS in the CSL at foxhole, whats so special about that, HvS had a go in a CSL aug 2003 on the ring,

I driven mine for 4 years on the ring, its been parked there. I bet If HvS had his loaner CSL from BMW marketing guys over 4 years driving it on the ring he would go faster thru Foxhole as well, he would most fore sure even lap that stock CSL under 7.50min on the lap as well after 4 years, see my point??
HvS is for abvious reasons not a refrence for the fastest laps on the ring in his loaner cars. BMW chassi engineers are outlaping him by plenty of seconds, one dont nead to be a rocketsientict to figure out why. They did lap sub 8min in the E60 M5, HvS is way slower. Its not HvS car is it, my bet is that reason hold him back, what would you say.

Still I would say HvS laps is the best reference as he is doing the same real world test in all cars on the ring, but he is for many reasons not the fastest driver, and its not importent in the end anyway, what he do is superb anyway.
HvS is not a proffessional racedriver, the guy driving the CSL in the film is!

[7:53 RS6]

Never been to the ring (looking to go this summer, fingers crossed) but with all I have read it sounds like the kind of course which one can't just jump into a car and make it go quick out of the box and this is regardless of how well one knows the track. I reckon unlike other normal circuits the ring requires you to become comfortable with the cars limits before you can really commit, which is totally different to a track like Hockenheim where there is run-off areas in all the right places so even over stepping the mark causes no problems. That is why the R8 might be performing really well there but less so on the ring, the car is plenty capable but the driver might not be as willing to commit the same as in something else.

Well Said. Thats the reason why HvS can not differ the 997 GT3 vs 997 GT3 RS on the ring. He is laping bothe cars in the same time. But on kliner hockenheim HvS can bring out the better of the 997 GT3 RS vs the 997 GT3.

Sure the 997 GT3 RS is a superior track car than 997 GT3 but due to HvS came in on same lap time on ring most peopel belive both cars are the same. They are far from the same but it take some from the driver to bring it out on the ring, and HvS is not that man. On safe kliner hockenheim he is the man and will differ the RS vs GT3 by a lot. The wider RS, the stiffer shell RS, etc, etc the small diffrencec is more easy to take advantange of on that small track, rather than scary ring.

[Benman]

Never been to the ring (looking to go this summer, fingers crossed)...

Leadie, not even once?!? Shame on you! Seriously, you must go. But I warn you, once you have experienced the "Northern Loop", all other tracks will be ruined forever. Yep, it really is that good.


All this talk about Gote and his friends not being good drivers... tell you what, go for a drive with him or one of his friends and then get back to me. Those fellas can drive.

Ben

[Leadfoot]

Leadie, not even once?!? Shame on you! Seriously, you must go. But I warn you, once you have experienced the "Northern Loop", all other tracks will be ruined forever. Yep, it really is that good.


All this talk about Gote and his friends not being good drivers... tell you what, go for a drive with him or one of his friends and then get back to me. Those fellas can drive.

Ben

Well technically I have driven on it lots of times (GT4 ) but though you know every corner that is coming up you don't get the camber, bumpiness, etc to really know what to expect. The line through the corners and braking distances aren't a problem, that's basic stuff that anyone with a decent amount of experience will get right, it the other stuff like I already mentioned and the dips and crest plus the changing surfaces that will be tricky to get to grips with.

Though I reckon if you are remotely handy behind the wheel you should get to within 15% of what it's truly capable of. Meaning if the car could lap the ring in 8 mins a decent pilot with only a handful of laps (15laps) should be able to lap the same car in 9:12. That might not sound that great but I reckon 7:53 RS6 would agree that this would still be some achievement. I would be pretty confident that I could get the RS4 round the ring in something like that time.

NOW WHO'S UP FOR LOANING ME THEIR CAR THIS SUMMER.

[KresoF1]

To answer your question if my friend that drive the 550hp CSL on the ring is better than HvS....YES. HE IS.

He is a former ETCC champion, he is a several STCC champion.
He is slightly, slightly outlaping Hans Joacim Stuck in Schubert Motorsport BMW Z4 M racecar on the ring, also outlap Stuck junior and Claudia Hurtgren...eh they all do drive the Shubert Z4m race car on the ring. He is doing 24H this year as well in the Shubert team. HvS is also driving VLN in a Honda at times, he is a Motor presse guy, HVS is NOT a proffessionall driver, my friend is.

Yes I would know very well what 7.29 mean, I can very much see the GTR at that pace around. You seems to forget that HvS is just a car mag editor, he drive lonar cars, wich he would moast likely be happy to deliver back after the supertest in one pice to the owner that gave him the car in the first place.

Do you think the susuki guys care less if they put the GTR in the Armcro when pressing on for the superb marketing world wide low ring lap time, well I think NOT, its their car isnt it.

And last, even a hobbydriver as my selv logg higher Vmax than HvS in the CSL at foxhole, whats so special about that, HvS had a go in a CSL aug 2003 on the ring,

I driven mine for 4 years on the ring, its been parked there. I bet If HvS had his loaner CSL from BMW marketing guys over 4 years driving it on the ring he would go faster thru Foxhole as well, he would most fore sure even lap that stock CSL under 7.50min on the lap as well after 4 years, see my point??
HvS is for abvious reasons not a refrence for the fastest laps on the ring in his loaner cars. BMW chassi engineers are outlaping him by plenty of seconds, one dont nead to be a rocketsientict to figure out why. They did lap sub 8min in the E60 M5, HvS is way slower. Its not HvS car is it, my bet is that reason hold him back, what would you say.

Still I would say HvS laps is the best reference as he is doing the same real world test in all cars on the ring, but he is for many reasons not the fastest driver, and its not importent in the end anyway, what he do is superb anyway.
HvS is not a proffessional racedriver, the guy driving the CSL in the film is!

I agree with about 85% of your post!

Just there is one thing Horst achieved pretty fast time(7.33min) with 997 GT2. Do not forget that Rohrl time is 7.32min for 997 GT2. So, in some cars Horst in pretty fast... You are right-Horst only do about three laps on the Ring. First one is usually the fastest one... Why only three laps? Well... First he picked a time when Ring is pretty empty. Second, belive it or not(I drove only once on the Ring in also loaner car) since you are Ring expert many sportscars experience brakes problems after just two laps on the Ring!

BTW, all cars that Sport Auto testes are not loaners cars.They are offical press cars directly from manufactures(and these cars are usually better then costumer cars)... Horst do not loan the car from personal owner but, Audi(for example) gives the magazine their R8 for some period of time(usually three weeks)...

Regarding R8 time... Best achivement from Stippler is 7.55min for R8 without Navi, B&O, CD Changer, heated seats etc. BUT, with Ceramics, Bucket seats and Corsas... Stippler drove R8 that nobody wants to buy if you understand me... Brilliant Red that Horst drove was almost a copy of that car but, with Navi and CD Changer. This red one was about 16kg heavier then Stippler test mule... One other interesting thing is that both Stippler test mule and Horst test R8 was not equiped with Magnetic Ride... Even instructor R8s on Audi Driving experience are NOT equiped with Magnetic Ride... Interesting...

Regarding 7.29min... Well, Horst did 7.50min with grey GT-R test mule on the partially damp Ring(he did ONLY one lap... Karussel corner was completely damp)... I saw test data and sector time actually looked very good... Just few remarks-Doettinger Hoehe top speed was not that good and if Ring was dry Horst time would be in 7.45min-7.43min area...

[Leadfoot]

There's no point in knocking Horst as a driver and to be honest 7:53 RS6 isn't doing that. I personally don't think the actual example he gave was the right one to used based on my thinking, the GT3RS vs GT3 are closely matched in terms of outright performance and all the advantage that the RS model has is in stiffer suspension and chassis. The ring a believe is extremely bumpy and usually cars which are stiffer and work well on a smooth track don't fair as well round here, that might explain why the GT3RS is quicker on tracks like Hockenheim and Bedford but not the ring.

This still throws up the R8 issue, why does it not at least match the CSL, it's performance shadows the BMW, it's quicker on normal tracks and yet it's also more forgiving on difficult surfaces which really has me a bit confused, I know the CSL's time is right, 7:53 RS6 has all but matched it so either the R8 doesn't like the ring or the ones tested were under the weather, both opinions which don't sit well with me personally.

From the info I have the R8 during testing lapped in the 7:50 mark and was reaching a lot more than 256Km/h peak recorded by SportAuto.

[KresoF1]

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..2.*

[tazsura]

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=18019

Don't know if this is new info regarding the 'Ring time...

Taz

[AndyBG]

I'm very ''suprised'' to see this...

Here's one more link, same story...

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/05...ng-record.html

[Z07]

So it's a Euro-Spec GTR. I'm European* so that's not a problem.


*I'm British really but we get Euro-Spec cars.

[AndyBG]

Is there any official difference between Euro and ''rest of the world'' version?

[KresoF1]

Is there any official difference between Euro and ''rest of the world'' version?

EU specs GT-R do not exist yet. Sale in good old Europe starts in late April 2009. First costumer EU specs GT-R will be hopefully delivered in May 2009!

According to official GT-R price list for Germany there is still NO Data about CO2 emissions and fuel consumption. Same story about final weight of GT-R for EU market. All this things will be presented in early 2009...

Other interesting fact is that optional HDD Navi system for GT-R will NOT be available for first EU cars! If you want GT-R with Navi you will have to wait-now, here this-October 2009!

Just this few fact are telling us something, GT-R is far from ready for EU market...


BTW, all current GT-Rs in UK are JDM(Japan Domestic Market) grey import cars. Even R.Meaden from EVO said that he will withhold his final judgement about GT-R until he drives EU specs car somewhere in 2009...

[KresoF1]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/200...n-gt-r-review/

[7:53 RS6]

I agree with about 85% of your post!

Just there is one thing Horst achieved pretty fast time(7.33min) with 997 GT2. Do not forget that Rohrl time is 7.32min for 997 GT2. So, in some cars Horst in pretty fast... You are right-Horst only do about three laps on the Ring. First one is usually the fastest one... Why only three laps? Well... First he picked a time when Ring is pretty empty. Second, belive it or not(I drove only once on the Ring in also loaner car) since you are Ring expert many sportscars experience brakes problems after just two laps on the Ring!

BTW, all cars that Sport Auto testes are not loaners cars.They are offical press cars directly from manufactures(and these cars are usually better then costumer cars)... Horst do not loan the car from personal owner but, Audi(for example) gives the magazine their R8 for some period of time(usually three weeks)...

Regarding R8 time... Best achivement from Stippler is 7.55min for R8 without Navi, B&O, CD Changer, heated seats etc. BUT, with Ceramics, Bucket seats and Corsas... Stippler drove R8 that nobody wants to buy if you understand me... Brilliant Red that Horst drove was almost a copy of that car but, with Navi and CD Changer. This red one was about 16kg heavier then Stippler test mule... One other interesting thing is that both Stippler test mule and Horst test R8 was not equiped with Magnetic Ride... Even instructor R8s on Audi Driving experience are NOT equiped with Magnetic Ride... Interesting...

Regarding 7.29min... Well, Horst did 7.50min with grey GT-R test mule on the partially damp Ring(he did ONLY one lap... Karussel corner was completely damp)... I saw test data and sector time actually looked very good... Just few remarks-Doettinger Hoehe top speed was not that good and if Ring was dry Horst time would be in 7.45min-7.43min area...

Oh i did not know HvS yet to drive GTR on the ring, but i seen the japs in the wet karussel in the GTR.
Loaner car was my meaning from supplyer of course, still he would not be happy if in Armcro.
Even in some cars HvS is not far behind Walter R, point is Horst is not the fastest guy on the ring, the pro drivers are up a level in speed. If HvS was the fastest he would not be a carmag editor would he?. But even hobbydrivers are fast, i know that. So therfor one nead to take Sport Auto for what is, a very god real world preformance test. Its no kamikaze all out maximum ring reference, many are faster than him, even that not so intressting. Whats intressting and i bet you agree is HvS drive all cars, but still age are not making him faster by the years he grow older, The foxhole is a scary place even in your 30s and it gets more scary at 60, risk reward issues are changing with age:-)

And braking issues would not be a problem in a sportscar of today on the ring in a few laps especaly not on a free track as coling is god then all time as well you dont use the brakes that much if you are going very fast on the ring. Thats the whole point those that go very fast on the ring in a free lap keeps the momentum of the car and not braking that much. Those that go slow cut the enegry braking all over the place and nead to reaccelerate all time, this behavior will make brakes suffer as they are feeding brakes with heat all time around then. If to study a datalogg on the ring its clear the fast guys hardly use the brakes at all where the slow guys brake everywhere just in case(genarally speaking)
Well Stippler told me personaly he do 7.50min in R8, I take his word for it rather than anything else.

Still what this was about was GTR, and i have no problems seeing it at 7.29 by the susuki guy laping it. To me its not that importent if it got 500 or 550hp, still impressive. Heck even the stock Porsche 964 RS was said to have 260hp, it was closer to 290hp on many dynos?

[7:53 RS6]

There's no point in knocking Horst as a driver and to be honest 7:53 RS6 isn't doing that. I personally don't think the actual example he gave was the right one to used based on my thinking, the GT3RS vs GT3 are closely matched in terms of outright performance and all the advantage that the RS model has is in stiffer suspension and chassis. The ring a believe is extremely bumpy and usually cars which are stiffer and work well on a smooth track don't fair as well round here, that might explain why the GT3RS is quicker on tracks like Hockenheim and Bedford but not the ring.

This still throws up the R8 issue, why does it not at least match the CSL, it's performance shadows the BMW, it's quicker on normal tracks and yet it's also more forgiving on difficult surfaces which really has me a bit confused, I know the CSL's time is right, 7:53 RS6 has all but matched it so either the R8 doesn't like the ring or the ones tested were under the weather, both opinions which don't sit well with me personally.

From the info I have the R8 during testing lapped in the 7:50 mark and was reaching a lot more than 256Km/h peak recorded by SportAuto.

HvS is not differing the 997 GT3 from the 997 GT3 RS on the ring. On Hockenheim he is, by almost a second per lap(0.7sec if memory dont fail) Wich ads up after 20 laps. Now Walter Rhörl is differing the 997 GT3 vs the 997 GT3 RS just as it should even on the ring, by quite a few seconds. Yes its scary to go fast on the ring and HvS did not do it in the 997 GT3 RS vs 997 GT3, but WR do it.
Basicly 98% of the buyers of a 997 GT3 RS will not differ them on track vs a 997 GT3, its in the pit lane the RS will deliver. But then again there are a few % that will take advantage of the better RS on track, but they are not many. Even fewer on the ring.
Hard to make a great car even greater.
Wich get me in to the new CSL, hmm looking forward to that day anyway, I might get dissapointed, I might not. BMW might start winning F1 this year, they might not?

[Leadfoot]

HvS is not differing the 997 GT3 from the 997 GT3 RS on the ring. On Hockenheim he is, by almost a second per lap(0.7sec if memory dont fail) Wich ads up after 20 laps. Now Walter Rhörl is differing the 997 GT3 vs the 997 GT3 RS just as it should even on the ring, by quite a few seconds. Yes its scary to go fast on the ring and HvS did not do it in the 997 GT3 RS vs 997 GT3, but WR do it.
Basicly 98% of the buyers of a 997 GT3 RS will not differ them on track vs a 997 GT3, its in the pit lane the RS will deliver. But then again there are a few % that will take advantage of the better RS on track, but they are not many. Even fewer on the ring.
Hard to make a great car even greater.
Wich get me in to the new CSL, hmm looking forward to that day anyway, I might get dissapointed, I might not. BMW might start winning F1 this year, they might not?

I might not have explained myself well on this comparison (GT3RS vs GT3), my point was that when you stiffen a car that work much better on a normal track the chances are on a track like the ring this advantage will disappear, but only to the non-familiar like Horst and others but not someone like Walter Rhörl who after all developed the car in the first place. A stiff car is usually twitchy and that generally isn't great bed partners with a bumpy track, it makes braking and mid corner bumpy a little tricky. Haven't driven the RS version but I doubt I would prefer it on the ring when I think how stiff the GT3 is already.

Now to the new CSL (if it appears), I believe BMW will improve on it's time but reckon the improvements will come more so from it's extra performance than any real improvement in cornering or braking. The benefits on DKG compared to SMG will be small, especially on the track though others might have a different opinion on this to mine.

[Z07]

Is there any official difference between Euro and ''rest of the world'' version?

Yes. The US and Euro GTRs have revised suspension settings and revised engine and transmission mountings. The US GTRs are also slightly slower in a straight line due to the fact that poo qualifies as fuel over there.

[Z07]

According to official GT-R price list for Germany there is still NO Data about CO2 emissions and fuel consumption.

This is why imports are exempt from raised road taxes in the UK... and pre-2001 cars. No CO2 data.