Porsche vs. Audi

[tvrfan]

I have often read that porsche want to restructure audi and vw. Porsche says that because audi stole vw sales and takes their customers. I have also heard rumors that porsche will shrink audis modelseries. no more R8 and TT. i think the same will happen with the power output of the Audi engines. Porsche will audi "prescribe" how much power engines can have maximum. Porsche dont want that audi would take Potentially porsche owners or buyers away or the future audis would have mor power in their models than their own models. If that really would happen, audi would have no chance more on premiummarket against bmw and mercedes. porsche could trigger audi out from the VAG and that would make audi independently. But i probably dont know much about that.

What do you think about the future of porsche and audi?

[Audiphile]

I really do not worry about these rumors, and that is all they are. The TT will not be killed unless Audi replaces it with a similar model in that category. As for the R8 it could be a limited run model over the next several years in which it would be normal to cease production eventually. Remember you will be getting an R8 with a V10TT and Targa very soon. Porsche is and foremost out to make money. Audi is highly profitable and growing. Audi is much larger than Porsche and it benefits Porsche to maintain and grow Audi. As for competing against each other, that is more myth than anything. Audi drivers and Porsche owners are quite different. Porsche might spin Audi from VAG thus positioning Audi better in the marketplace as an independent. I for one would like to see that. Porsche would still own Audi, but Audi would not be part of VAG.

[tvrfan]

i dont know that sounds to optimistic. ^^

[JavierNuvolari]

I really do not worry about these rumors, and that is all they are. The TT will not be killed unless Audi replaces it with a similar model in that category. As for the R8 it could be a limited run model over the next several years in which it would be normal to cease production eventually. Remember you will be getting an R8 with a V10TT and Targa very soon. Porsche is and foremost out to make money. Audi is highly profitable and growing. Audi is much larger than Porsche and it benefits Porsche to maintain and grow Audi. As for competing against each other, that is more myth than anything. Audi drivers and Porsche owners are quite different. Porsche might spin Audi from VAG thus positioning Audi better in the marketplace as an independent. I for one would like to see that. Porsche would still own Audi, but Audi would not be part of VAG.

I like your point of view, after all it's business as usual. Porsche should keep Audi because it's profitable, but I still believe that there's a strong posiblity for Porsche to criple Audi and make them manufacture products that do not overlap with their line up. I say that because what will happen when Porsche starts manufacturing cars like the Panamera(soon), perhaps after that they will start thinking about making a A6 like kind of car that will compete with BMW's 5 series and Merc's E class....I dunno, future will tell.

[chewym]

Actually Porsche probably won't do too much, I hope. A very big part of Porsche's profit recently was from VW shares that it owns.

Hurting Audi would cut their money. But it doesn't appear that Porsche wants to share the little technology that it has.

[RXBG]

I like your point of view, after all it's business as usual. Porsche should keep Audi because it's profitable, but I still believe that there's a strong posiblity for Porsche to criple Audi and make them manufacture products that do not overlap with their line up. I say that because what will happen when Porsche starts manufacturing cars like the Panamera(soon), perhaps after that they will start thinking about making a A6 like kind of car that will compete with BMW's 5 series and Merc's E class....I dunno, future will tell.

porsche must cripple audi. the family bought the vw group for a reason, and it was not money, but control. porsche has had enough money to buy vw for many, many years. do you wonder why it didn"t until now? let's face it, a huge battle is taking place in saxony and germany, in general. imagine the US a third its size and a huge portion of its domestic product being cars. and now imagine the ford family trying to buy out GM. enough said. as such, audi is done for. the TT will soldier on in a more pussy-assed form as a pretty, stylish little coupe this side of a regular cayman in performance. and that will be it. imagine the R8 being truncated at a NA V10 and maybe a 4.2 TDI and, in the last year of production a light weight R version..... porsche will make it disappear like a ghost in 6 years time, when R and D shift over to the 911 (the 998) leaving the R8 to the same destiny as the good dear old NSX, an aged and underpowered car that remained in production till well past its prime. the next R8's evolution and redesign will never get off the concept stage because porsche will simply let its mystique fade like britney spears........into nothingness and oblivion....

Actually Porsche probably won't do too much, I hope. A very big part of Porsche's profit recently was from VW shares that it owns.

Hurting Audi would cut their money. But it doesn't appear that Porsche wants to share the little technology that it has.

good point, but buying vw was to save money in the long run by eliminating the need to fund their own R and D and instead taking it from VW. the good stuff in the skunkworks audi program will go to porsche when its needed. better yet, funding will be cut from audi to put it into porsche's- and god knows they know better than anyone else that their quality and design need a major overhaul given their god awful designs. as such, i predict that audi will indeed become a luxury marque to compete with mercedes and porsche will go after bmw. there will be an R8 successor, but it'll likely be A9 and a GT like the grand turismo, pretty but without the balls. the next 911, the 998, will be the next "R8"- it'll be mid-engine- you heard it here first (whoever thinks porsche will go on with the rear engine fiasco until the year 2032 because it is tradition is smoking good weed).

the R4 is out.

sorry guys. the state of saxony is trying to put up a good battle, but it will ultimately fail. de nysschen and co. will be getting new 10 year plans shortly. stay tuned. i hate to be the one to say it because it pisses me off. but the truth, as jesus once said, will set you free. get your R8 while its hot. it may be worth a crapload of money some day. just don't crash it.

the future for audi is, indeed, grim. whoever thinks it is actually bright had better take a course in formal logic from their local college.

[tazsura]

The next 911 is the 997 mkII that should be out in the summer. The totally new 911 (codenamed 991 not 998) out in circa 2011 will still be rear-engined. After this, who knows...

Taran :asian:

[chewym]

A plan: A VW/Audi investor group buy up shares in some possible way? Who did Porsche buy all of these shares from??? And where did they get all the money from (no one has answered this quesiton yet)

Also, I don't think the R8 hurts 911, Porsche sells so many 911s (because of heritage/prestige) that the R8 doesn't affect it. I can see the RS6 competing with the Panamera, but I think Prosche will be at fault with the ugly Panamera that comes out. (based on spy shots so far, it might turn out ok)

[ZeroCool]

i was told that one reason is also - that Toyota was/were able to buy the complete VW AG ... and so they would be also the leader in Europe...

[Rage]

Also emission regulations. Porsche need VW to offset their higher emissions average.

[OfftheHeZie]

This is interesting. If Porsche is really up to what some of you are suggesting... damn them. I'll take my C4 Battleship over there and lay waste to Stuttgart.

~Mason

[Audiphile]

porsche must cripple audi. the family bought the vw group for a reason, and it was not money, but control. porsche has had enough money to buy vw for many, many years. do you wonder why it didn"t until now? let's face it, a huge battle is taking place in saxony and germany, in general. imagine the US a third its size and a huge portion of its domestic product being cars. and now imagine the ford family trying to buy out GM. enough said. as such, audi is done for. the TT will soldier on in a more pussy-assed form as a pretty, stylish little coupe this side of a regular cayman in performance. and that will be it. imagine the R8 being truncated at a NA V10 and maybe a 4.2 TDI and, in the last year of production a light weight R version..... porsche will make it disappear like a ghost in 6 years time, when R and D shift over to the 911 (the 998) leaving the R8 to the same destiny as the good dear old NSX, an aged and underpowered car that remained in production till well past its prime. the next R8's evolution and redesign will never get off the concept stage because porsche will simply let its mystique fade like britney spears........into nothingness and oblivion....

good point, but buying vw was to save money in the long run by eliminating the need to fund their own R and D and instead taking it from VW. the good stuff in the skunkworks audi program will go to porsche when its needed. better yet, funding will be cut from audi to put it into porsche's- and god knows they know better than anyone else that their quality and design need a major overhaul given their god awful designs. as such, i predict that audi will indeed become a luxury marque to compete with mercedes and porsche will go after bmw. there will be an R8 successor, but it'll likely be A9 and a GT like the grand turismo, pretty but without the balls. the next 911, the 998, will be the next "R8"- it'll be mid-engine- you heard it here first (whoever thinks porsche will go on with the rear engine fiasco until the year 2032 because it is tradition is smoking good weed).

the R4 is out.

sorry guys. the state of saxony is trying to put up a good battle, but it will ultimately fail. de nysschen and co. will be getting new 10 year plans shortly. stay tuned. i hate to be the one to say it because it pisses me off. but the truth, as jesus once said, will set you free. get your R8 while its hot. it may be worth a crapload of money some day. just don't crash it.

the future for audi is, indeed, grim. whoever thinks it is actually bright had better take a course in formal logic from their local college.

I understand where you are coming from, but how does Porsche benefit from crippling Audi actually? It would hurt Porsche more than help and actually diminish Porsche if it restricts Audi. But good questions have been posed regarding what type of relationship we will see. There is somewhat of an overlap between Lambo and Porsche, but honestly the market place is big enough for both. Porsche needs to be careful though not to ruin brands for its own egomanic reasons because it could have a negative effect against its goodwill. . Not everyone wants a Porsche in their garage! Ruining Audi and Lambo would create a lot of bad blood towards Porsche from many sectors of consumers and enthusiasts who would simply switch to other brands. I know if Porsche damages Audi, I would never consider buying their products. Audi and Porsche are very different and do not overlap. Porsche is pissed at Audi for Audi blocking their version of the Q5. You are right that Porsche is treading on Audi's turf more than the other way. This is where my concern comes from. Also, the Germans would not take kindly to Porsche ruining Audi. This would be a monumental nightmare for Porsche if they did this. The German government would likely begin to step in at this point. Bavarian officials would attack Porsche if it touches Audi. You have to realize the legacy that Audi holds in Germany and especially in Bavaria and Lower Saxony where Zwickau is located. Audi is considered a German treasure by many Germans. So, it is not as simple as you think. Porsche would cut its own legs off.

Plus, and I say it again, Porsche benefits strongly from Audi (Audi is the more intelligent of the two companies) and if anything I see Porsche spinning Audi off from VAG to allow it more independence directly under the Porsche umbrella.

What I have heard is that Porsche has been very unhappy with Audi performance in the North American market. The word is that Porsche was the main driver for shifting its top US man Schwarzenbauer into the Audi boardroom and asking Audi CEO to remove Ralf Weyler (a protege of Bernard Pishetsrider - so you know Piech had some influence here). Furthermore, Johann de Nysschen may see his last days as well. Stadtler and Wiedleking are not happy with the slow progress in the US. One can argue that replacing Weyler with Schwarzenbauer by Audi due to Porsche influence is a positive sign as this benefits Audi and does not hurt them. Porsche wants Audi to grow in the US. So, this contradicts the above premise. It is too early to tell. If Porsche is smart, they will leave Audi to run itself as it has.

[chewym]

Porsche hasn't helped Audi in the US market. Porsche has a nice V8 that Audi could use (if possible???)

It will take money and risk for Audi to conquer the US market. Massive ad campaign (the latest one still doesn't match regular advertisign from the "competition") Money spent on quicker product sales, US specific combinations (like the new S4 engine put into the regular A4) Cheap leases would help with sales as well. Basically Audi in US faces the same exchange problem as BMW and Mercedes while selling a lot less cars.

If Porsche wants Audi to do as well in the US as it does in other markets sales wise, they will have to put in some funds (surely they have some as they have made a fortune with VW/Audi stock doubling recently) Basically Audi/VW have never given Audi USA such in the past. Porsche shouldn't expect anyting new without an effort.

Porsche ran more Cayenne GTS ads (for a limited edition model) than Audi has of its new A5/R8 (cornerstone of new Audi brand turn around plan) commercials. Both ran them during the superbowl. I wouldn't be suprised with less new A4 ads than for the GTS as well.

I guess Porsche can look down on VW/Audi in the US market, as they can sell more Caymans/Boxsters than Audi can sell TTs (while charging more for less), sell just as many Cayennes as Touaregs (while chargind more for pretty much the same thing). It all comes down to the badge.

[RXBG]

if someone were to tell me that porsche will not impede audi's r and d and foray into aggressive car models i would be willing to accept porsche. but i don't think anyone can. from all indicators the R4 is dead. and i'd love to see porsche not meddle with audi's finished TT-R specs. but i doubt it'll emerge unscathed. it'll likely emerge mildy underpowered and neck and neck with the cayman S at best.

[JavierNuvolari]

if someone were to tell me that porsche will not impede audi's r and d and foray into aggressive car models i would be willing to accept porsche. but i don't think anyone can. from all indicators the R4 is dead. and i'd love to see porsche not meddle with audi's finished TT-R specs. but i doubt it'll emerge unscathed. it'll likely emerge mildy underpowered and neck and neck with the cayman S at best.

Harsh words, and I don't like reading them but I somehow know you are so damn right.

Time will tell if we were right when we said that Porsche will only screw Audi in a less than unpleasent manner, in the meantime we can only especulate about the future and what Porsche will do. There are some rather optimistics post about the real reason for Porsche to purchase VW AG., the Toyota one(ZeroCool) was by far the best and I have to reckon that if so then we should not be we worried about Audi's future in the short term.

Cheers all

[Leadfoot]

What does this mean?

The omnipresent Jalopniks have tipped us off to some interesting spy photos which were taken by BridgeToGantry.com, a site dedicated to all things about the Nürburgring Nordschleife.

Wearing Ludwigsburg license plates, which indicates an official Porsche AG car, BTG spotted this Porsche Cayman doing some hot laps. What was interesting was not it's appearance but rather its sound. BTG photographer gives an account of hearing the distinct sound of a turbo engine as this Cayman flew past.

BTG states they have seen a similar Cayman prototype making the same noise a year ago, but it's back. A turbo charged Cayman making somewhere in the neighborhood of 340hp would be a serious threat and outperform its older sibling, the 911. Known for being lean and well balanced, a Cayman Turbo would absolutely cannibalize 911 sales and Porsche knows it. According to BTG, privateer teams last year who were using the Cayman were suddenly upgraded to, “money-can't-buy factory-backed RSR 911s.”

Are we to believe that Porsche are looking to introduce a turbo Cayman to compete with the Z4M, SLK amg and future TT/RS. If so where does this leave the 997?

[The RS6]

Porsche seeking more power and influence at Audi

Three Porsche heads will join Audi’s supervisory board at its annual meeting on May 7. Porsche’s CEO Wendelin Wiedeking, CFO Holger Härter and the grandson of Porsche’s founder Ferdinand Piëch will all sit in to discuss further cooperation between the two.

Wiedeking has previously said that Porsche will share electronic architectures, platforms and vehicle distribution with the Volkswagen Group.

“In the future, we will share parts the customer doesn’t perceive, as we successfully did with the Cayenne,” Wiedeking said.

According to Automotive News, Porsche is looking to Audi for a version of the new Q5 to compete with the BMW X3 and the Mercedes-Benz GLK. The two are also working closely to develop the next-generation Audi TT and the Porsche Boxster.

Volkswagen currently builds the bodies for the Porsche Cayenne SUVs alongside its Touareg and Audi’s Q7 at its Slovakia plant in Bratislava.

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/04/28...uence-at-audi/

[Audiphile]

Porsche seeking more power and influence at Audi

Three Porsche heads will join Audi’s supervisory board at its annual meeting on May 7. Porsche’s CEO Wendelin Wiedeking, CFO Holger Härter and the grandson of Porsche’s founder Ferdinand Piëch will all sit in to discuss further cooperation between the two.

Wiedeking has previously said that Porsche will share electronic architectures, platforms and vehicle distribution with the Volkswagen Group.

“In the future, we will share parts the customer doesn’t perceive, as we successfully did with the Cayenne,” Wiedeking said.

According to Automotive News, Porsche is looking to Audi for a version of the new Q5 to compete with the BMW X3 and the Mercedes-Benz GLK. The two are also working closely to develop the next-generation Audi TT and the Porsche Boxster.

Volkswagen currently builds the bodies for the Porsche Cayenne SUVs alongside its Touareg and Audi’s Q7 at its Slovakia plant in Bratislava.

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/04/28...uence-at-audi/

Well then, the TT is not dead, but moving positively forward. The R4 was more of a rumor than anything else. An R4 would have hurt the TT more than any Porsche. It makes no business sense for Porsche to impede Audi. Yes, obviously more cooperation which in the long run benefits both.