Autocar: RS4 beats the M3..scans anyone?

[KK265]

Whoa, whoa! Hold it there, huge surprise, the RS4 weighs 5kg LESS than the new M3!!! Wow!!! Not so much a victory for the RS4, which seemed a bit portly before now, but a disappointment for the M3. BMWs have always been on the lighter side...until now, I guess...

WOW, the new M3 is simply a letdown, in my mind. As an DEDICATED Audi fan, I still expected the new M3 to trump the RS4. Instead, the M3 is struggling to match the RS4, winning some comparison tests, losing others, and overall, not meeting its expectations. Is BMW really just "leaving room" for the new CSL? I don't think so; the new CSL simply doesn't have a big enough buyer base to sacrifice the new, base M3 for its sake. It's the hardcore, RACER M3 that most people do not want over the regular, more street-able M3. Quite frankly, looking from a non-biased perspective, I believe that BMW has committed a crucial misstep with this new M3. They will have to live with it for years...

Am I missing anything? I'm interested in everyone's viewpoints on this issue.

Does anyone know how many M3 CSLs totally sold?

[Leadfoot]

Whoa, whoa! Hold it there, huge surprise, the RS4 weighs 5kg LESS than the new M3!!! Wow!!! Not so much a victory for the RS4, which seemed a bit portly before now, but a disappointment for the M3. BMWs have always been on the lighter side...until now, I guess...

WOW, the new M3 is simply a letdown, in my mind. As an DEDICATED Audi fan, I still expected the new M3 to trump the RS4. Instead, the M3 is struggling to match the RS4, winning some comparison tests, losing others, and overall, not meeting its expectations. Is BMW really just "leaving room" for the new CSL? I don't think so; the new CSL simply doesn't have a big enough buyer base to sacrifice the new, base M3 for its sake. It's the hardcore, RACER M3 that most people do not want over the regular, more street-able M3. Quite frankly, looking from a non-biased perspective, I believe that BMW has committed a crucial misstep with this new M3. They will have to live with it for years...

Am I missing anything? I'm interested in everyone's viewpoints on this issue.

Here is my take on the new M3 and lets see if anyone agrees with me.

In the past I always found the M3 a little to extreme for me personally, sure plenty like it but it was never what you would have called a great family car, regardless of the full compliment of seats available and the decent boot space. It ride was always on the firm side of comfortable, it's engine always had to be worked very hard to get the best of the performance available, it was the kind of car that you had to put in work to get results.

Now there is a market for that kind of thing, but in my opinion it's the market just above where the M3 lies, the sub-supercar market with the 997, the Vantage, the kind of car which buyer who can afford these usually have another mode of transport as well.

I think BMW has now understood that the M3 has to be a little bit more civilised especially now they have an engine that doesn't need to be worked the same to get results, sure it you work it harder then the results are bigger again but unlike before this engine has torque available from much lower down and as a result gear changes aren't a necessity. It ride is now much better for transporting rear passengers, it's more of a family car that more people could buy in to.

What we have here is a car that I who has ordered a S5 would buy or in other words, a car with a much larger audience. I think the magazines might not like it the same but the buying public will love it.

But BMW are still nowhere near as good as Audi for understanding what makes the perfect family coupe, just watch this space........RS5 is a coming.

[Leadfoot]

Does anyone know how many M3 CSLs totally sold?

Not sure but in the UK they had to discount some of the last available stock by up to 23%. The car wasn't a success in any way, regardless of what it achieved around the ring. As rks838 said, the standard car was too close to the CSL's performance especially on the road where most of the time both spent their time.

[Rock]

I just read the article and they had nothing but great things to say about the Audi. They even say it is lighter.

They loved its looks, its steering and road feel. They thought the interior was in a completely different class than the M3.

It sounded like the RS4 is more like the old M3 and the new M3 is more like the Audi of old.

[Audihead]

IMHO, I believe this new M3 to be a "still born". BMW had all the time in the world to make this a great car. BMW has been working on this replacement since the E46 was finished and ready for the public. Now that the new M3 is here, and it can basically only tie a 2 year old car, I find that truly pathetic. If I were BMW I would be embarassed. Also, when the true M3 fighter, the RS5 comes out, it's lights out for BMW in this game.

[skratch]

its sad what some mags throw on there cover to sell.

[Leadfoot]

its sad what some mags throw on there cover to sell.

skratch,

It's not sad to show the replacement for the best selling sports coupe in the UK on the cover of their magazine explaining that it's closest rival beat it. You like everyone here and we aren't BMW fans were interested to here what road testers thought of it compared to it's rivals. It's reports between exotic cars like these that sell mags, most might only be able to afford a Opal Corsa, Ford Modeno or stateside a Ford Pick-up but they are all interested in dreaming and reading about the stuff they can't afford.

The sad thing is the poor showing that the new M3 produced, you yourself stated that it would be way quicker than the RS4 because of it best transmission system sapping less of the engine's power but Autocar even felt that the RS4 was the better responding car and C&D test results showed both posted equal times to the quarter mile on a drag strip no less, place both cars on a less grippy surface and it would be an easy victory for the RS4.

But it's not the speed that is the problem here, it's all the other stuff that BMW have lost between the old E46 and this new one, like steering feel, body control etc. Things that were clearly important to it's core buyers, when you read some of the comments on BMW fans website you can clearly see some despair as to what has when wrong.

The only silver cloud on the horizon is this report from one of the German mags commenting that someone in BMW stated that the car will lap the ring in around 8 minutes. If this doesn't happen where will that leave them and the M3, especially with some many new rivals waiting in the wings to sell sales and it's clown which looks to be slipping.

[chilli]

maybe... no, for sure, i'm not in contact as a lot of you guys are with the market, but maybe BMW indeed made this car a little more luxurieus, more "normal" because, just as the M5 they will make it in estate and berline? just for not losing to much of the market, 'cause audi has them all, avant, berline, coupe ( with the RS 5 coming) and the convertible. i do have the b5 rs4, and believe in the fact of the exclusivity(?) of it because of the avant type, of course it is a car a love, and god nows i drive it every day. so just maybe BMW thought of be more polite, and lose of its "hard core" stuff. (btw, never drove a m3, so don't shoot me) best to all of you

[skratch]

I agree with your point leadfoot,but there front cover is overrated.Its like the Rs4 absoulutely killed the M3,wich is not the case at all.

take a read at what some more respected mags say about it.

''It is a lion of a car, with the capacity to maraud and maul, to rip the heart out of its rivals, yet also purr like a giant kitty. The choice is entirely up to the driver. And that is the real marvel of the new M3. It is so strong and so sharp, yet also tame and regal and refined. It seems like a contradiction, even in a world where Porsche and Ferrari and even Audi do supercars without real vices, but BMW has done a brilliant job on a car that is still the pinnacle for the brand.''

"Worry no more, M-buffs who obsess over new models of your favoured cars growing ever larger and more luxurious to the detriment of sharpness and communicative handling. A first impression from this global press preview is that beyond being the most powerful, the 2008 M3 is the best-balanced, most rewarding, most track-happy M3 since the 1986 original".

heres a nice review from evo mag
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74094

I will hold judgmant untill Itest drive one,some mags are saying its soft,some are saying its the perfect track car.

There was a guy that test drove one and said he would trade his E46 CSL for one so who knows how the car feels.

There are no official tracks time yet so you can't compair the cars just yet.

[Leadfoot]

skratch,

Not to start an argument because I know you are a keen BMW fan, but their front cover says this 'RS4 beats new M3 ... in the closest twin test ever'. The reason they made the print so much bigger is the fact in their mind the M3 should have destroyed the Audi like it has always done in the past in their eyes, only this time round the Audi won and to them that was amazing and worth top billing on the cover.

And rightly so.

Like I have saying already, the M3 is now more my kind of car from the sounds of it and in being so I reckon the hard core M3 owners will be least impressed with what they see.

[AudiSuperDriver]

a few months ago when i said that the new M3 will be kicked off by the RS4 almost a half of members from this forum laugh at me because they've thought that this will be impossible regarding that the M3 had 3 years in front of the RS4 of developing better, faster and lighter car, but....RS4 BEAT M3 as i said...hmmm...is there anybody right now who believes that any bmw from m power could beat the rival from audi rs?...i thought so...RS5 and RS6 here i come

[IulianUM]

Talking with Audi engineers in a Track experience with R8 last week , they said that the Rs5 will surprise a lot of people (remember they are testing the cars) . The engine is not determined yet , seems to be two "finalists" but ...

As for the M3 it sure is a good car , probably a little better than the Rs4 (diferent driving technique). But Audi have showed the world what they can do , and we hope will do

I thought that the new M3 would be much better so ...

[Arslanoff]

Talking with Audi engineers in a Track experience with R8 last week

Did they tell you about R-tronic on upcoming S/RS models? If yes, I would believe you 100%

[Leadfoot]

Talking with Audi engineers in a Track experience with R8 last week , they said that the Rs5 will surprise a lot of people (remember they are testing the cars) . The engine is not determined yet , seems to be two "finalists" but ...

As for the M3 it sure is a good car , probably a little better than the Rs4 (diferent driving technique). But Audi have showed the world what they can do , and we hope will do

I thought that the new M3 would be much better so ...

Well one of the finalists is a v8 Bi-turbo, as for the other I reckon they are still looking at possibly keeping the N/A idea alive.

As for the victory that the RS4 had in Autocar and the win by the M3 in EVO, after reading both of them and checking the cars, they were different M3 that each tested so maybe Autocar's one wasn't performing at it's best on the day.

Will wait to see a UK roadtest between both of them before casting any other comments about the new M3.

[IulianUM]

Arslanoff , yes that´s what they told me . But , time will tell . I like the idea but ...

[artur777]

Guys,

Please take into consideration that BMW has changed marketing policy for M3 lineup.

They have M3 and M3 CSL in the range.
They have lowered M3 and raised M3 CSL to make a visible difference for two models in the market for potential buyers.

M3 becomes more luxury car than just sporty - so the market will be much wider and more profitable than for just sporty M3 E46. And you know that company's overall profit is the main thing in business.

Those, would like more sporty and racy car, - wait for M3 CSL.
It will outrun RS4 - no doubts at all. It will compete heavily with and outrun RS5 - I think so (but not sure). I have driven all Audi S and RS cars - BMW's are better in driving. Only R8 is very smart.

That's why don't compare incomparable!

I think that Audi RS4 is a good car but without DSG it's not interesting for a lot of buyers. In my country, RS4 sales could be 3-4 times higher if it were with DSG. A lot of people will buy M3 with DCT or C63 AMG instead of Audi RS4.

The problem is that if you do an engineering miracle it wouldn't be profitable for the company (f.i., Carrera GT). And if you do the car which is ok for potential buyers - it will be very profitbale (VW Golf).

BMW chooses the right way - with new M3 it satisfies the biggest group of potential buyers with their wish to have not only sporty, but luxury car. And BMW will be very profitable - their shares will continue rising.

Hope, that Audi will do in the same way with future models.
But to say the truth, RS4 and S5 without automatics / DSG are market loosers... I don't know about buyers in other countries but in my country it is for 100% sure. I has been to my Audi dealer two days ago and noticed there some RS4 and S5 cars with no buyers for them - just waiting for smb. to buy them.

Vice-a-versa - Audi R8 and RS6 seems to be the truth according to this ideology - they will be very popular in the market and will be profitable. In my country, already a lot of pre-orders for R8 and RS6 were made. And a lot of M5 and M6 cars are at BMW dealers not sold, because everybody waits for R8 and RS6.

So, I hope you het my main idea about business and engineering miracles.
They are very different from each other and profit (which is the main thing) lies in between. I know what I am talking about.

Good luck!

[Iceman]

Whoa, whoa! Hold it there, huge surprise, the RS4 weighs 5kg LESS than the new M3!!! Wow!!! Not so much a victory for the RS4, which seemed a bit portly before now, but a disappointment for the M3. BMWs have always been on the lighter side...until now, I guess...

And we are also talking about a 4 door sedan against a 2 door Coupe', more doors mean more weight, and the M3 have even a carbon fiber roof.

Hans.

[Speedou]

There is difference how BMW and Audi count the weight. M3 is lighter, when both have fluids in.