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Thread: R8 Ring time achived by Sport auto is...

  1. #37
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    Leadfoot,

    but why don't we take into consideration HP when talking about acceleration? What is the role of torque? Where is the truth lies?

  2. #38
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    Yes, Stephan Reil and Dirk Isgen....

    You do not have a clue who these to guys are, don't you?

    BUT, you know more about R8 suspension then these two, specially about Magnetic Ride...

    For ME you lost all your credibility...

  3. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by KresoF1 View Post
    Yes, Stephan Reil and Dirk Isgen....

    You do not have a clue who these to guys are, don't you?

    BUT, you know more about R8 suspension then these two, specially about Magnetic Ride...

    For ME you lost all your credibility...
    Of course i know, Stephan Reil Technikchef der Audi-Tochter Quattro GmbH and Dirk Isgen, Der Audi R8 projektleiter.
    But why not according to Stephan Reil.
    I thought "Magnetic Ride" was the better suspension.

    Hans.

  4. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by KresoF1 View Post
    Yes, Stephan Reil and Dirk Isgen....

    You do not have a clue who these to guys are, don't you?

    BUT, you know more about R8 suspension then these two, specially about Magnetic Ride...

    For ME you lost all your credibility...
    Forgetting about the who's who.

    The merits of standard suspension over MagneticRide don't hold water. Normal springs and dampers are tuned to be a compromise between comfort and control, too much comfort and the handling is shot, too much control and the ride is destroyed. With MagneticRide there isn't the same compromise, with the press of a button you have either comfort or control but the real difference is that even in comfort mode the control from the dampers is still better than with standard suspension. In sport mode the control is total and after sampling both systems back to back in a TT I would always chose the MagneticRide every single time.

    Hans reckons an improvement of between 10~15 seconds, personally I doubt that for if this was indeed the case there wouldn't have been a standard suspension option at all. I know that in the TT there is a marked difference in lap times, but this is with a car which has a compromised design what with it being 60/40% nose heavy, I doubt the same could be true with the weight balance reversed but I wouldn't doubt there could be a 3~5 second improvement.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  5. #41
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    I believe there is politics being played out with the R8 and the Gallardo. This is the reason why it wasn't launched with a V10 to start with and why the V10 when it comes will be less power than Gallardo by as much as 50hp when the Gallardo Mk2 arrives.

    I have no doubt that the R8 would be the quicker car if both had the same amount of power, there is over 5years difference in technology between them, but when Lambo get the R8 toys the Gallardo will regain it's superiority.

    I can't understand why there can be as much as 12~14s between what Audi achieved on the ring with the R8 during testing and what Sport Auto achieved in it supertest.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  6. #42
    Registered User Arslanoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    12~14s between what Audi achieved on the ring with the R8 during testing and what Sport Auto achieved in it supertest.
    Bad driver?

  7. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    Forgetting about the who's who.

    The merits of standard suspension over MagneticRide don't hold water. Normal springs and dampers are tuned to be a compromise between comfort and control, too much comfort and the handling is shot, too much control and the ride is destroyed. With MagneticRide there isn't the same compromise, with the press of a button you have either comfort or control but the real difference is that even in comfort mode the control from the dampers is still better than with standard suspension. In sport mode the control is total and after sampling both systems back to back in a TT I would always chose the MagneticRide every single time.

    Hans reckons an improvement of between 10~15 seconds, personally I doubt that for if this was indeed the case there wouldn't have been a standard suspension option at all. I know that in the TT there is a marked difference in lap times, but this is with a car which has a compromised design what with it being 60/40% nose heavy, I doubt the same could be true with the weight balance reversed but I wouldn't doubt there could be a 3~5 second improvement.
    Leadie,

    Magnetic Ride is just Audi's marketing hype...

    Regarding TT(I asume that you order one) and R8 suspension options here is a chart:
    TT R8
    Standard suspension No such option on R8
    Magnetic Ride Magnetic Ride
    Sport Suspension Sport Suspension(standard on R8)


    So, let's take TT... The fastest TT is the one with Sport Suspension, NOT the one with Magnetic Ride. Simple truth.

    Magnetic Ride on R8 is a compromise, it is softer then standard Sport suspension in normal mode and little bit stiffer in Sport mode. BUT, since it is stiffer only benefites would be in perfectly flat track! Not on the Nordschleife that is far from flat or smooth.

    My very good friend works for Motor Presse(company that own both Sport Auto and AMS) and he said to me that Audi delivered two R8s-one with Magnetic Ride, standard brakes and seats, second one with Sport suspension(standard one!), Ceramic brakes, Bucket seats and Corsa tires. Both cars were manuals...
    First weight-car with Magnetic Ride was 35kg heavier. Second-that same car was also little bit slower in acceleration. Third-in Hockenheim car with Magnetic Ride was 1s slower then the the one with Sport suspension. Of course since tires were different they changed them as well. Difference between Pirelli Zero the Hero's and Corsa's are on R8 only 0.2s in Hockenheim! BUT, differene between Magnetic Ride and Sport suspension(standard one) is 1s...

  8. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    I believe there is politics being played out with the R8 and the Gallardo. This is the reason why it wasn't launched with a V10 to start with and why the V10 when it comes will be less power than Gallardo by as much as 50hp when the Gallardo Mk2 arrives.

    I have no doubt that the R8 would be the quicker car if both had the same amount of power, there is over 5years difference in technology between them, but when Lambo get the R8 toys the Gallardo will regain it's superiority.

    I can't understand why there can be as much as 12~14s between what Audi achieved on the ring with the R8 during testing and what Sport Auto achieved in it supertest.
    Regarding politics... Audi owns Lamborghini...

    Difference between Audi R8 factory Ring time and Sport Auto time is 9s... 7.55min is the time that Tom Kristenssen achieved with the same R8(manual, Sport suspension, Ceramics, Buckets and Corsas). BUT, T.Kristenssen had more then 30 laps on the Ring to achieve that results. On the other hand Horst von Saurma usually have only three laps...

    Are you forgetting Audi unofficial RS4(SS+,Ceramics, Corsas) Ring time? 7.59min...

    So, what about that??

  9. #45
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    So you are basically saying that not only Audi are wrong in offering MagneticRide suspension but Ferrari are too with the 599 and in their case they don't even give their customers an option.

    I haven't tried to R8 so my comments or solely based on the TT and yes it was standard suspension vs MagneticRide and not the sport suspension that is also offered. I have being lucky enough to sample both standard and SS+ on the RS4 (I know different car and suspension set-up) and didn't really find any improvement from the latter, in case if anything the standard suited the roads I drove much better.

    I still can't understand how a suspension which can adapted to the road surface and conditions in a millisecond can be classed as the compromise, from what I understand of normal coils and dampers are you have to work inside a set of parameters based about what is suitable for every road surface. The scope is too wide to offer a set-up that can be as accurate.

    Now if you said to me that the SS+ on the R8 was design for the ring then I might agree that it would offer the best set-up and achieve the best result.

    Is this the case?
    Search and you will find the truth.

  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by KresoF1 View Post
    My very good friend works for Motor Presse(company that own both Sport Auto and AMS).
    Well this explains why you are fighting they side so passionately and if this was me I reckon I too would be doing the same, but to argue that EVO don't conduct their tests as well as Sport Auto is a little unfair. I recently met one of the Stigs (yes there is more than one) and he personally rates EVO as the most unbiased magazines in the industry, if a car is a dog they say as much and with the same token, as the car is good they praise it. They reviews and opinions of Audi cars are more in tune with German magazines than any of the other UK rags.

    If one magazine showed a result totally at odds with every other than I would be the first to stand up and say it was wrong but in EVO's test of the R8 that isn't the case, other mags found similar results, regardless if they are stateside or not.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  11. #47
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    Leadie,
    I spoke today with my friend from Motorpresse and here is an update...

    Something was clearly wrong with Sport Auto R8 test car since other(ice silver) example achived better metrics when measured by sister AMS mag...

    Example No.1 in Sport Auto test R8(brilliant red) achieved only 132km/h in Auswecihtest 110m and silver R8 example at AMS achieved on ISO-Wedelgasse(very similar test to Ausweichtest 110m) 149,4km/h!! Difference is very big indeed since silver car was with Magnetic Ride and normal Pirelli Hero tires...

    Example No.2 On the Ring RS4 achieved top speed on Doettinger Hoehe(top speed check point on the Ring) of 262km/h, R8 achieved only 254km/h!! I made some calculation on sector times and if R8 top speed were the same 262km/h final lap time would be around 8.00-7.59min.... Much close to what we all expected!

    Apparently this red R8 did not delivered all 420hp... But, blame is on Audi only, not on Sport Auto stuff.

  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by KresoF1 View Post
    Leadie,
    I spoke today with my friend from Motorpresse and here is an update...

    Something was clearly wrong with Sport Auto R8 test car since other(ice silver) example achived better metrics when measured by sister AMS mag...

    Example No.1 in Sport Auto test R8(brilliant red) achieved only 132km/h in Auswecihtest 110m and silver R8 example at AMS achieved on ISO-Wedelgasse(very similar test to Ausweichtest 110m) 149,4km/h!! Difference is very big indeed since silver car was with Magnetic Ride and normal Pirelli Hero tires...

    Example No.2 On the Ring RS4 achieved top speed on Doettinger Hoehe(top speed check point on the Ring) of 262km/h, R8 achieved only 254km/h!! I made some calculation on sector times and if R8 top speed were the same 262km/h final lap time would be around 8.00-7.59min.... Much close to what we all expected!

    Apparently this red R8 did not delivered all 420hp... But, blame is on Audi only, not on Sport Auto stuff.
    Thanks for the info, it does explain a lot and you are more of a man than most for even sharing this info which in a way vindicates EVO and some of the other magazine's results.

    Did he say if Sport Auto was going to re-run the test to see if the time improves or are there leave the result as it stands.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  13. #49
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    Leadie,
    According to my info we could see an update in autumn issues(September or October)...
    Also very interesting thing is that Pirelli Corsa's did not work as good as expected. R8 is far better with normal new Pirelli P Zero The Hero's but, this is normal since Hero's were developed mostly on R8s...
    We will see...

    BUT, I still have a small doubt over EVO Bedford time.

  14. #50
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    Very, very interesting! Keep us updated please!

  15. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    Power to weight matters in acceleration when you are talking about torque and not horsepower. If an M6 can do 0~200km/h in 13.4s with only 383ft/lbs of torque, I reckon the RS6 will be able to match of possibly better this with an estimated 550ft/lbs of torque.

    I am not hyping to RS6, I am only relaying what I have been told about the car. It is meant to be an animal and it's handling is like-wise meant to be very impressive for such a large car.
    Leadie, these comments are in no way aimed at you personally, but are really much more general - we all hope the RS6 will be great, but all the expectations on the RS6 popping up on this forum are simply not realistic given what we know about the car as well as its intended role and physical limitations. We have seen this hype movie before - first with the RS4, then the S6 and finally with the R8. Of course Ingolstadt will try to hype its current and forthcoming offerings, but there is no reason to take their word for it too literally...

    Torque plays a role in acceleration only if gearing is strange/very long, the powerband is very narrow or the driver (or the auto) is too lazy/sub-optimal - otherwise bhp is what counts in straightline acceleration with optimal gearchanges. Acceleration (i.e. against clock) and in-gear acceleration (i.e. real world) are two very different things as we all know. The fact remains: in 0-200, the RS6 will not beat the M6, which has seven tightly packed gears, relatively low weight and a highly potent engine with only 7% transmission loss - but it does not have to really and distance will not be too big and it will for now be the fastest road going Audi. This is realistic and should be good enough.

    Btw, KresoF1's: I really appreciate and enjoy your in-depth analysis and there may well some truth to it - but is not trying to explain away/downplay the R8's very good - albeit not spectacular - NBR time essentially clutching a straw? Maybe the test car was flawed somehow, who knows - but as we all now, standards allow for a 5% tolerance from the quoted power for one thing and maybe the standard suspension and Corsas are better suited for HH and than NBR or EVO's Bedford. The same test car delivered big time in HH, which of course is a less flowing and lower average/peak speed track - is that not enough? Another test car, another day and the NBR time in HvS's hands might dip to 8 min dead from 8.04 - so what? It will not hit 7.46 in any circumstance...

  16. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuattroFun View Post
    Leadie, these comments are in no way aimed at you personally, but are really much more general - we all hope the RS6 will be great, but all the expectations on the RS6 popping up on this forum are simply not realistic given what we know about the car as well as its intended role and physical limitations. We have seen this hype movie before - first with the RS4, then the S6 and finally with the R8. Of course Ingolstadt will try to hype its current and forthcoming offerings, but there is no reason to take their word for it too literally...
    I know it wasn't a personally dig at me, it was more a wake-up call to say that reality doesn't live up to expectations. I disagree that the RS4, S6 and R8 haven't done this though, RS4 was a revelation when it hit the streets and even with it's 6yrs old chassis design and poor weight balance it will still keep even the soon to be launched M3v8 on it's toes. The S6 has also beat the mighty M5 to overall honours in more than one or two reviews and even matched the M5 to within half a second around a twisty track, all this with more weight and less power. As for the R8, well how many times have we not hear things like 'a new dawn in supercar standards' being used to describe it.

    The only area where they haven't performed is our own expectations, no where else.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuattroFun View Post
    Torque plays a role in acceleration only if gearing is strange/very long, the powerband is very narrow or the driver (or the auto) is too lazy/sub-optimal - otherwise bhp is what counts in straightline acceleration with optimal gearchanges. Acceleration (i.e. against clock) and in-gear acceleration (i.e. real world) are two very different things as we all know. The fact remains: in 0-200, the RS6 will not beat the M6, which has seven tightly packed gears, relatively low weight and a highly potent engine with only 7% transmission loss - but it does not have to really and distance will not be too big and it will for now be the fastest road going Audi. This is realistic and should be good enough.
    Sorry but torque plays a much bigger role than HP in acceleration, just look no further than the 130i and the S3, both has the same HP but the S3 walks the 130i because of it's broad torque band and all this with an inefficient awd system. The RS6 will have an equally broad torque band but more than twice as much and more than twice as much power as well, we are also assuming that it's a 6sp auto but to date no one knows this for sure, it might be a 7sp auto.

    I don't disagree that it might not beat the M6 up to 200km/h but I reckon it will be pretty close and as for the M6 only having a 7% tranny lose, come on that impossible, the only way this could happen is the BMW quoted figures were less than was really the case. The same was found when EVO tested the 599 and found it's power was much greater than quoted. But in any case it's not the M6 which is the RS6's real rival, that's the M5 and I do believe it will out gun it, out handling it and better it overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuattroFun View Post
    Btw, KresoF1's: I really appreciate and enjoy your in-depth analysis and there may well some truth to it - but is not trying to explain away/downplay the R8's very good - albeit not spectacular - NBR time essentially clutching a straw? Maybe the test car was flawed somehow, who knows - but as we all now, standards allow for a 5% tolerance from the quoted power for one thing and maybe the standard suspension and Corsas are better suited for HH and than NBR or EVO's Bedford. The same test car delivered big time in HH, which of course is a less flowing and lower average/peak speed track - is that not enough? Another test car, another day and the NBR time in HvS's hands might dip to 8 min dead from 8.04 - so what? It will not hit 7.46 in any circumstance...
    I don't know about other manufacturers but all Porsche have to equal or better their quoted output, I doubt Audi follow such a practice but who knows. I expected the R8 to beat the 8.00 barrier if only by a tenth or two but the time in Sport Auto did seem to be at odds with other reviews and like everyone here I hope it's re-run proves this to be true. But in no way could the R8 ever approach the Z06 or GT3RS times around the ring, it is after all just a everyday sportscar for the road, not a trackday special which has been civilised for road use which in the GT3RS case has been done extremely well.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  17. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by KresoF1 View Post
    Example No.1 in Sport Auto test R8(brilliant red) achieved only 132km/h in Auswecihtest 110m and silver R8 example at AMS achieved on ISO-Wedelgasse(very similar test to Ausweichtest 110m) 149,4km/h!! Difference is very big indeed since silver car was with Magnetic Ride and normal Pirelli Hero tires...
    I must also say that 17km/h is nearly 11mph difference which is huge. Is this all down to the fact of down on power or is it a combination of the power, the tyres and the MagneticRide suspension.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  18. #54
    Moderator RXBG's Avatar
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    i'd say to reserve and wait till we see what the RS6 final published figures are before we conclude it won't be faster to 200 than the M6. and further, to await a comparison test. i would be personally very disappointed if the RS6 wasn't faster than the M6/M5 in every way. the car will be very expensive. and i assume that means it'll be packing a hell of a punch. my gut hopes and believes it will be faster.
    Past- A4, TT, S4

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