September 11: French secret service knew everything and told the CIA early 2001

[Mr Balsen]

The french newspaper "Le monde" is revealing today that the french secret services knew everything about the plan of Ben Laden and told the CIA early 2001:

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/16042007/29...projets-d.html

Frederic

[3abdo]

i actually stoped beleiving anything they say about september 11, i just know that whoever thaught of this attack is sick, and he only killed civilians that im prety sure had nothing to do with what he wanted...

[PeterJohn]

Why not hit the nuclear power plants, instead of some obscure office building.

http://www.oilempire.us/

This site is the best place if you want to know the theory of the "real" 9/11 truth movement. Not that stupid "no planes" theory that the media keeps promoting.

[Leadfoot]

I don't believe in some of things about the 911 attack but I do think there is more than we are being told by the American government, especially the ties that President Bush has with the Ben Laden family.

[Benman]

I don't believe in some of things about the 911 attack but I do think there is more than we are being told by the American government, especially the ties that President Bush has with the Ben Laden family.

Bingo... the "official" story is so far from the truth it's disgusting.

As Ron Paul was brave enough to state at the recent Republican debate (forgive my entrance into politics please as this is relative to the topic at hand) "They don't hate us because of our "freedoms", they hate us because we have soldiers stationed on their Holy Lands, because we've been over there bombing them for the past ten years... I'm mean, how would we like it if China had military presence in the Gulf of Mexico!"

You gotta applaude the guy for having mad courage!

Ben

[RXBG]

practically everyone knew that bin laden (and others) had and continues to have intentions on the US. and if/when they got to the US they'd move on to other countries, if they didn't do so earlier. it was simply a question of believing in and acting upon the threats more closely. look at israel, no country has a more intense and proactive and effective policy on this and see how many bombs kill people there. it was only a matter of time before something happened here. and even then, anyone who thinks that israeli-style preparation would have prevented something of 9/11 magnitude in an attack-naive US is smoking crack. any administration at any time could have been nailed with the blame of 9/11. any other kind of thinking is pure BULLSH*T. and don't believe anyone who tells you that bombs can't start going off in anytown USA just like they are in tel-aviv. nothing is stopping that from happening except the terrorists themselves.

and sorry, i don't believe the rhetoric about the US being hated because it has soldiers on others lands. the US is hated because it is viewed as imperialistic- not militarily, but economically. and it IS hated because of its freedoms. because those freedoms threaten certain beliefs and philosophies and certain kinds of pride.

what you should really be asking is- why islamic terrorists? and for those who bitch about the adjective, it IS important so don't complain about it being there.

[Benman]

...and sorry, i don't believe the rhetoric about the US being hated because it has soldiers on others lands. the US is hated because it is viewed as imperialistic- not militarily, but economically. and it IS hated because of its freedoms. because those freedoms threaten certain beliefs and philosophies and certain kinds of pride.

Sorry RXBG, couldn't disagree with you more. If that was the case, why isn't Osama bombing Sweden, Switzerland or Japan? Perhaps because they do not have 1000+ military bases in over 150 different countries. Food for thought. We as a people need to wake up from our "We are so Good and They are so Evil" rhetoric and smell the coffee. America is every bit the Imperialistic military power that ROme was. In fact, America has become the Imperialist might that ancient Rome only dreamed of...

Ben

[RXBG]

which came first? the bases or our economic influence? and what was the purpose of the bases? to conquer (rome) or to protect our interests or because the US is essentially "hired" by those from who it buys oil to protect their interests? and were the bases they built and personnel stationed against the will of the country they were in (rome)? the natural history of imperalism is not the same each time. rome does not equate to the US in its etiology. most US bases in europe are a part of NATO agreement. US bases in the middle east are what i'd call mercenary in nature. do you really think that there is such a thing as a saudi army? the only significant army in the middle east is iran's. wonder why?

if we remove our bases and our soldiers from every inch of non-american soil in the world then they (sic- islamic terrosirists) will not recent the US anymore or see the US as a threat? yeah. right.

lets not confuse the cause for the effect, ben.

anyone who states these facts cannot be accused of embracing the idea that "we are so good and they are so evil". the US has good reasons for being hated. many of them. we are the most superficial, ignorant, self-centered, and hypocritical country on the planet. but these things are a byproduct of a system that breeds them as a side effect of its economic power and potential. and this is scary. THIS IS scary to those on the other side. ten of our cruise missiles equal the entire annual defense budget of france, did you know that? the truth is that EVERY country on this planet and every religion and political ideology can be seen as good and evil depending on what your personal interests are.

"America is every bit the Imperialistic military power that Rome was" thats nice, cliched, quick thinking table talk, but is completely inaccurate.

rome acquired through outright violent conquest. the last time the US did that it had 13 states. WWI, WWII, vietnam, korea, iraq. all had their reasons, to protect our interests, not to acquire land.

no ben. this is an ideological war of resentment against the US that can be manipulated by anyone who wants to use it for their cause. and i resent that that honest kind of self-criticism doesn't exist unless it is in the guise of political statements designed th criticize our nation for the wrong reasons.

[Leadfoot]

This is getting into another of those arguments which can't be won, so I will change the direction of the argument by saying the US haven't won a battle on their own since their War Of Independence.

Feel the love flowing my way now.

[Benman]

which came first? the bases or our economic influence?

Ah, the chicken or the egg... Yes, I freely admit, this country's great army would in fact not exist without this country'e great economy and wealth.

and what was the purpose of the bases? to conquer (rome) or to protect our interests or because the US is essentially "hired" by those from who it buys oil to protect their interests? and were the bases they built and personnel stationed against the will of the country they were in (rome)?

The purpose? To enhance US interests in strategic places of importance. The US is not "benevolent, never will be. Against there will? You'd be suprised what people will agree to when promised billions of US tax payer's $$$. And if that doesn't work, you'd also be suprised what people will agree to at the point of a gun.

the natural history of imperalism is not the same each time.

Of course it isn't at I admit this, but all imperialist empires share many similarities, so does the US.


QUOTE=RXBG;96220]
if we remove our bases and our soldiers from every inch of non-american soil in the world then they (sic- islamic terrosirists) will not recent the US anymore or see the US as a threat? [/QUOTE]

I couldn't fathom an answer to that as it has never been atempted. Perhaps we should ask who it is working out for Sweden, or Switzerland for that matter. And you never did answer the question of why Japan, Switzerland, and Sweden are not getting bombed for their "freedoms" and flurishing economies...

the truth is that EVERY country on this planet and every religion and political ideology can be seen as good and evil depending on what your personal interests are.

Couldn't agree with you more on that point. And yes, scary that ten of our missiles equates to France's entire budget. Again, something to think about.

"America is every bit the Imperialistic military power that Rome was" thats nice, cliched, quick thinking table talk, but is completely inaccurate.

Table Talk? Next you'll be saying I'm using strawman logic? And how in the world is it completely inaccurate? I am not stating the US uses the exact same tactics... I am saying they're are every bit the imperialist power that the Roman Empire was. The benefit that the US has is centuries of better ideas of how to go about becoming said power. As you correctly point out, whereas Rome was outright might, US has a much better (refined) way of claiming power. A nice read is "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" Excellent stuff.

QUOTE=RXBG;96220] i resent that that honest kind of self-criticism doesn't exist unless it is in the guise of political statements designed th criticize our nation for the wrong reasons. [/QUOTE] You resent what exactly? That I stated something truthful? Afterall, you never did answer the point of what the US response would be to a Chinese military presence in the Gulf of Mexico? I'm sure the US would be just fine with that? Of course, the US doesn't just have some guys running around in caves to fight with...

For those who think "blowback" is just myth... please read the following short write up: http://www.mises.org/story/2595 even the CIA and the 9/11 commision report freely admit this as fact! And I'd hardly call the CIA and the 9/11 commision report "anti American".

RXBG, I greatly respect your opinion, and consider you intelligent, but fail to see how you can not see the light of the facts that America is in fact, empire building, just in a new-n-improved, better way.

Ben

[Benman]

This is getting into another of those arguments which can't be won, so I will change the direction of the argument by saying the US haven't won a battle on their own since their War Of Independence.

Feel the love flowing my way now.

Whoops! Too late! I was in the middle of a loooong reply while you were posting so I didn't have the chance to feel the loving flow. And yes, you're right, the US hasn't won anything since then, and even then, I'd hardly call those "victories".

I will conclude any statements and all other replies (by me) will be done via PM.

Ben

p.s. But I do feel I'm correct.

[AudiFanatic83]

Bingo... the "official" story is so far from the truth it's disgusting.

As Ron Paul was brave enough to state at the recent Republican debate (forgive my entrance into politics please as this is relative to the topic at hand) "They don't hate us because of our "freedoms", they hate us because we have soldiers stationed on their Holy Lands, because we've been over there bombing them for the past ten years... I'm mean, how would we like it if China had military presence in the Gulf of Mexico!"

You gotta applaude the guy for having mad courage!

Ben


Sorry RXBG, couldn't disagree with you more. If that was the case, why isn't Osama bombing Sweden, Switzerland or Japan? Perhaps because they do not have 1000+ military bases in over 150 different countries. Food for thought. We as a people need to wake up from our "We are so Good and They are so Evil" rhetoric and smell the coffee. America is every bit the Imperialistic military power that ROme was. In fact, America has become the Imperialist might that ancient Rome only dreamed of...

Ben

BEAUTIFUL BEAUTIFUL POSTS Benman!..I am really happy to see that not everyone in the states is blinded by the media. I agree with all your posts 110%. Reading books such as "House of Bush, House of Saud" which talks about the ties with the Bush family and Bin Laden family, and the "Plan of Attack" only add more to my determination that the true motives behind sept 11 is too sick for the public to comprehend, and if it ever comes to light then America itself will have to bow down their heads in shame as the whole world questions them for all the innocent lives that have been lost overseas both American and Middle Eastern in the name of 9.11.

BTW I was born in Saudia Arabia lived there until I was 5, and lived in America since I was 6. So all this really does take its affect on me. The other day I was in the hospital here in Atlanta Georgia, my grandfather was in icu and I was talking to my grandmother in our native language. This gentleman comes up to me and says "Excuse me, in America we speak english...if you want to speak your language go back to your country.." My response to him was "The cool thing is I am multi-talented and can speak both languages but if you'd like I can curse at you in english"..needless to say he shut up and walked away...ne ways i'm really happy to see openminded people like you on this forum my friend

[Benman]

i'm really happy to see openminded people like you on this forum my friend

Thank you for the kind words. In RXBG's defense, I shared his exact thoughts until just two years ago when I had an epiphany when I stumbled upon a book called The Creature From Jeckyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve... life has been so different ever since. I had read since then more than 25,000 pages of Libertarian, History and Austrian Economic books (RXBG, I promise to read your book asap, but I've been swamped with so much current reading! Forgive me, but I truely will read your book as soon as I've caught up!) and have learned more in the last two years than my previous 29 put together. I've only just hit the tip of the ice berg, but I'm getting there, I'm getting there...

Ben

[AudiFanatic83]

Reading up and looking into details will always help. I am not jumping down RXBG's throat as well. I know many of my classmates (well I just graduated from College) and my neighbors share different views than me, but to me that doesn't make you bad. Some people will put faith into their media and other news outlets no matter what they say. But sometimes you just have to look at situations from someone elses view and then you'll see the truth. Such as why so many countries hate America, I mean people around the world whether they are Middle Eastern or Asian dislike America. When you see things like that, you should then ask yourself; "ok why so much animosity towards us?" But yeah Leadfoot said it correctly, no one is going to win this argument (even though it's not a matter of winning or losing, it's a matter of enlightning). Whatever our views may be on politics and wars we all share one thing in common. That one thins is our love for AUDIS!!!!



Best of luck to everyone!

[RXBG]

"US has not won any wars by itself since..." what's the point of that statement? how was it relevant? though it was called WWII there were many subwars- one being US vs Japan. what other significant presence was there on the US side? and don't forget that the world would not be what it is today had it not been for america's aid to europe. twice.


ben. the us is far from benevolent. it is the most economically imperialistic entity one the planet, in spite of itself. i agree with you. but being promised economic help is not the same as putting a gun to someone's head. the US has not defaulted on any such promises to my knowledge or the knowledge of the world bank. closest you can come to in that argument is iraq. but still no cigar.

"I couldn't fathom an answer to that as it has never been atempted. Perhaps we should ask who it is working out for Sweden, or Switzerland for that matter. And you never did answer the question of why Japan, Switzerland, and Sweden are not getting bombed for their "freedoms" and flurishing economies..."

you cannot possibly compare countries with almost insignificant importable capacity, such as the first two, to a country that is in a different stratum of economic, social, and physical complexity as the US's. that japan's military spread and occurence of terrorist attacks and worldwide resentment are inversely proportional to the US's is a spurious correlation in my opinion. it is a convenient one as well. japan's presence abroad is much more sublime than the US's, the main case in point being pop culture economics- (a damn shame since i think most music and movies and art that come from the US are pure crap, thank god i know about A-HA's newest ) again- a function of the differences between the US and the other two countries you cited. i mean seriously, ben, sweden and switzerland? england and brazil would have been better examples.

"... I am saying they're are every bit the imperialist power that the Roman Empire was. The benefit that the US has is centuries of better ideas of how to go about becoming said power. As you correctly point out, whereas Rome was outright might, US has a much better (refined) way of claiming power. A nice read is "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" Excellent stuff."

choose your type of imperialism, ben, you stated military. economic is a more valid term. cause and effect. the day we invade another country in order to acquire agricultural land, slaves, and gold a priori i'll reverse my opinion. and speaking of new sublime ways to acquire power. how about saudi arabia's and qatar's? they hire the US to protect them. power by proxy is even more sophisticated. separately- i could easily argue that saudi arabia is more imperialistic militarily than any other country in the world because it employed the US to destroy one of its biggest threats! all without spilling much of its own blood at all.

rome had mercenaries. so does saudi arabia. and saudi arabia doesn't even let its protectors/saviors/customers/mercenaries visit it. like they have some disease. oh wait, we do, liberal capitalism. and- gasp- non-islam morals. i'd love to see vatican city forbid non-business/poltical envoys from visiting it.

"You resent what exactly? That I stated something truthful? Afterall, you never did answer the point of what the US response would be to a Chinese military presence in the Gulf of Mexico? I'm sure the US would be just fine with that? Of course, the US doesn't just have some guys running around in caves to fight with... "

you are entitled to your opinion, ben, but i do resent inaccurate portrayals and random associations that are utilized to create the illusion of valid conclusions. i do not mean to accuse you of that, but that is the way i understood what you wrote. also, i didn't see you formulate a question about the chinese military in the gulf. but i will answer your hypothetical question the way you did mine- "I couldn't fathom an answer to that as it has never been atempted".

finally, empire building is not a crime if it is done in a just and peaceful way. exporting america's tangible brands and those that are intangible (accidentally), such as our social freedoms, et al, is not a crime. killing innocent americans because of it is.

btw- to all those reading this. it is not in any way a spectacle. it is a reasonable discussion. so don't make it something it isn't.

[Benman]

RXBG ,

Unfortunately, I ment what I said. For me to reply, it will have to be by PM. Have a great weekend all.

Ben

[Leadfoot]

RXBG,

My statement was only to make light of the argument, sometime we can be to close to the subject to see that your argument effect our friendships.

The US is the world's police force and that is why they are attacked, they sometime step into situations regardless of whether they are wanted or needed and it's usually for an economical reason, just in the same way as the UK fought for the Falkland Islands.

I can't begin to understand Iraq as religion and politics are intertwined and their beliefs of martyrdom are foreign to most of the western world. I believe this is a war that will never be won and the longer it goes on the less chance of the goals being achieved, occupation breed terrorists it a know fact and if you look at the amount of countries that the US are occupying in one form or another you can see why they are the number one target.

[RXBG]

sorry leadie. the falklands have no economic importance. only militarily do they matter. and even then by not much.

occupation breeds resentment. in the broad machiavellan sense. there will always be a reason to detest those who have more. homo sapiens creates its own underdog. but the US does not occupy any country by force, except one.

... and please don't accuse the US of being responsible for 9/11. because it wasn't.