Do you think the E92 M3 will match the R8 in performance?

[EKaru]

Some of the BMW guys seem to think so:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...=156442&page=2


The RS4 weighs 500 lbs more than the R8 and will be close to the M3 in terms of performance, so the R8 will likely toast the M3....

[sticky]

Well what type of performance do you mean? If straight line, then yes, the M3 has an advtange.

There are a few threads on numbers magazines have achieved with the R8. The R8 is slightly faster than a carrera S.

We also need more details on the M3. If the M3 has a 7 speed SMG, the straight line advantage will definitely lay with the M3.

Even with the R8's weight advatange over the RS4 it is not much lighter than the M3, about 30 pounds, and with the AWD will not put as much power to the ground. The R8 has not put up numbers significantly faster than the RS4, we will have to wait and see. I think it will be close, with the edge going to the M3 as speeds rise, and the R8 having an advantage from a stop. Handling is in the R8's court.

[EKaru]

Well what type of performance do you mean? If straight line, then yes, the M3 has an advtange.

so you're telling me that the M3 will do 0-60 in under 4 seconds?? I think not

[sticky]

Straight line is more than 0-60. 0-60 with modern cars and the power they put out is more of a test of traction. An AWD car will usually have a better 0-60, due to traction.

I said from a stop the R8 has an advantage and from a roll the M3 does. Past 60 AWD is not any benefit. Trap speed will determine the faster car on the highway.

[Ruergard]

In a straight line I think the M3 will be quicker. But on a track... we'll just have to see!

[buyalemon]

RS4 uses old school Torsen quattro system which easy eats more power than the viscodiff in the R8 ...so if the RS4 puts down 365 hp on the wheels ...the R8 could perhaps put down 385-390 hp! That makes a big difference ...so the M3 will probably walk all over the RS4 above 190 km/h ...but not the R8!

[MPT]

In straight line acceleration the R8 will have the advantage with Quattro from the start, and in higher speeds you forget about the advantage of the MUCH lower drag-coefficient, hence it has got a lower Cw-value.

Of course the new M3 will be fast. Even faster than RS4 in straight line drag. But in a drag against the R8, the M3 will get killed .


Kind regards.

[Leadfoot]

RS4 uses old school Torsen quattro system which easy eats more power than the viscodiff in the R8 ...so if the RS4 puts down 365 hp on the wheels ...the R8 could perhaps put down 385-390 hp! That makes a big difference ...so the M3 will probably walk all over the RS4 above 190 km/h ...but not the R8!

Quite correct buyalemon, the M3 will most likely pull clear air between it and the RS4 but like you say the R8 is indeed a different animal. But is the only racing done discussed on this site about acceleration, even if the M3 holds on to the R8 in a straight line chances are in a few corners the R8 will drift into the distance. After all one is a Coupe and the other is a Supercar, a 997 Carrera S most likely won't stand a chance against the R8, the G rating for roadholding says as much and I doubt the M3 will get to the 997's level.

[QuattroFun]

If the new M3 is faster than a R8 in 0-200 km/h remain to be seen: it will be a close call, but really not material how the small margins turn out. Indeed, if only that would matter no Porsches except GT3, GT2 and Turbos would be sold anyway. R8 is very different from the M3 - completely different chassis set-up and balance. The M3 is of course much more useable and cheaper.

[buyalemon]

If the new M3 is faster than a R8 in 0-200 km/h remain to be seen: it will be a close call, but really not material how the small margins turn out. Indeed, if only that would matter no Porsches except GT3, GT2 and Turbos would be sold anyway. R8 is very different from the M3 - completely different chassis set-up and balance. The M3 is of course much more useable and cheaper.

good post ...straight line racing is pretty much useless ...I use to have a S2 doing 402m in 12,8 ..far from the best car in the world!

For sheer acc the Z06 must be the car to have ...costing less money than the R8!

[sticky]

RS4 uses old school Torsen quattro system which easy eats more power than the viscodiff in the R8 ...so if the RS4 puts down 365 hp on the wheels ...the R8 could perhaps put down 385-390 hp! That makes a big difference ...so the M3 will probably walk all over the RS4 above 190 km/h ...but not the R8!

No one has put down 365 to the wheels in an RS4. Even if the driveline was efficient at 20%, you would be looking at 336 hp at the wheels. All the dynos that RS4 guys have provided have been in the 300-310 range suggesting a 25% loss. A guy with the milltek full exhaust had 320 at the wheels, on a dynojet which tends to read high.

The M3 will put down most likely in the 350-360 rwhp range. The R8's more efficient AWD setup is 2-3% more efficient than the RS4 from what I have read. 385-390 wheel would be more hp than a 996 turbo, as in, it isn't happening. A 997 GT3 puts out 385 wheel, and the R8 isn't going to be anywhere near that car. I would expect 10 AWHP more than the RS4, at best.

[sticky]

Of course the new M3 will be fast. Even faster than RS4 in straight line drag. But in a drag against the R8, the M3 will get killed .

You say it wil be faster than an RS4 but get killed by an R8? That doesn't make sense, the R8 doesn't turn times much faster than the RS4. If the M3 is faster than the RS4, which it will be, then "killed" is hardly an accurate assessment. A lot depends on if the M3 gets a 7 speed SMG.

[sticky]

Quite correct buyalemon, the M3 will most likely pull clear air between it and the RS4 but like you say the R8 is indeed a different animal. But is the only racing done discussed on this site about acceleration, even if the M3 holds on to the R8 in a straight line chances are in a few corners the R8 will drift into the distance. After all one is a Coupe and the other is a Supercar, a 997 Carrera S most likely won't stand a chance against the R8, the G rating for roadholding says as much and I doubt the M3 will get to the 997's level.

For the price of the R8 the porsche to compare against it seems to be the GT3. Which of course, will win in all performance aspects.

[Leadfoot]

For the price of the R8 the porsche to compare against it seems to be the GT3. Which of course, will win in all performance aspects.

Make your mind up sticky, one times car are to be compared based on performance and the next it's price.

The GT3 is a trackday car not exactly the normal mode of transport that the Carrera 4S is, so based on that assumption the standard car is the better choice as it will be the one most people including the magazines will compare it to. If you want to compare it to any other 997 do it with the Turbo as both are everyday cars.

If you want to be silly like that, why not compare the M3 with a Lotus Exige GT. You have to compare like with like or the test becomes meaningless.

[Leadfoot]

No one has put down 365 to the wheels in an RS4. Even if the driveline was efficient at 20%, you would be looking at 336 hp at the wheels. All the dynos that RS4 guys have provided have been in the 300-310 range suggesting a 25% loss. A guy with the milltek full exhaust had 320 at the wheels, on a dynojet which tends to read high.

The M3 will put down most likely in the 350-360 rwhp range. The R8's more efficient AWD setup is 2-3% more efficient than the RS4 from what I have read. 385-390 wheel would be more hp than a 996 turbo, as in, it isn't happening. A 997 GT3 puts out 385 wheel, and the R8 isn't going to be anywhere near that car. I would expect 10 AWHP more than the RS4, at best.

It has already been discussed that Dynos have problems with AWD car and can't get meaningful readings, so disregard all figures that dynos give including ones for RWD cars as well. At most they help chip and tune a car but nothing else.

[sticky]

It has already been discussed that Dynos have problems with AWD car and can't get meaningful readings, so disregard all figures that dynos give including ones for RWD cars as well. At most they help chip and tune a car but nothing else.

This statement is complete and utter BS. I want to make that very clear.

There are many different dynos in the world and all dynos are used by major tuners to create a baseline and then record the difference afterwards.

Let's say you are right and dynos can't be trusted. So if someone takes an RS4 and gets a baseline of 300 wheel and then gets a full exhaust and redynos on this same AWD dyno and it shows they picked up 20 wheel, the gain can't be trusted?

Different dynos give different readings but come on, saying readings aren't meaninfull and don't do anything else but help with a chip and tune is idiotic. My M3 put down 275 at the wheels on a dynojet. This was in line with what other people all around the world were getting on dynojets. How is that possible?

I think you are disregarding dynos because no dyno has shown the RS4 to put down significant power. There are also AWD and RWD/FWD dynos in this world you know.

Funny how you didn't take issue to the guy posting that an R8 would put down 385 wheel but you have an issue with me posting that it won't.

A major tuner like www.evoms.com uses an AWD dyno in their measurements of power gains for the AWD 911 turbo. Their graphs correspond to those that tuners from all over the globe have. Those guys know more about vehicles than any of us, you think they don't know what they are doing and that they should throw their dyno away? You are really, really reaching on this one. Go post that AWD dyno's are meaningless on a 911 turbo forum and let's see what happens.

[sticky]

Make your mind up sticky, one times car are to be compared based on performance and the next it's price.

The GT3 is a trackday car not exactly the normal mode of transport that the Carrera 4S is, so based on that assumption the standard car is the better choice as it will be the one most people including the magazines will compare it to. If you want to compare it to any other 997 do it with the Turbo as both are everyday cars.

If you want to be silly like that, why not compare the M3 with a Lotus Exige GT. You have to compare like with like or the test becomes meaningless.

I take it you do not know much about the current generation 997 GT3. Go on porsche's website, look it up, and look into PASM and then get back to me. Or read this thread on rennlist where many guys are switching over from 997S's to the 997 GT3 as the new GT3 is a great daily driver thanks to PASM and being able to adjut suspension settings to your will: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...d.php?t=342962


Now, my mind has been made up since the beginning. What I have been saying from the beginning (do a search if you need to) is that the way Audi prices the car is vital. Now that I have the price and the base is 108k for the manual, that is 2k more than a 997 GT3. Why isn't the GT3 a good comparison? Why wouldn't someone who is looking at the R8 also look at the GT3 along with the turbo as the R-tronic R8 has a base of 118 vs. the turbo's 122k. These prices are all significantly higher than the supposed base 997 competition.

The R8 was supposed to compete with the Carrera S and C4S. However, at the price point they put it at in the US it is simply inevitable that comparisons will be drawn to the other 911 models that are in the same price bracket. Logical isn't it?

Perhaps when you were thinking of the GT3 as a trackday only car, you were thinking of the GT3-RS, common mistake.

[Leadfoot]

sticky,

My opinion about is based not only from EVO magazines' roadtest partner which supplies the figures use in their papers and someone know has little to gain by saying something like this and AMD another tuner specializing in tuning Audi, VW, Porsche and others including BMW. They all say the baseline figures for AWD cars are very inaccurate but do provide a start for modifying as any improvement is going the right direction.

When based with such evidence I reckon that what Dyno reading is at the very least objective and should be taken as such, I don't have a problem with anyone believing in that they said and quoting figures I just reckon the measurements for AWD cars will be out some what.

As for the GT3 being the right comparison to a R8, unless the ride quality of the GT3 has improved hugely over the last model there is no way anyone would even consider it over a 997 4S if in their choice of cars were a R8. I know the Porsche range quite well and have spent time in most of them, though the 997GT3 has not been one of them so I will base my opinion on the previous model if that OK.