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Thread: Do you think the E92 M3 will match the R8 in performance?

  1. #37
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    RXBG is talking about ride comfort and luxury equipment that the R8 has that the CSL does not. Having a mid-engine configuration and only 2 seats does not change that. Considering the compromises of the past CSL I think it would be fair to assume future CSL's to be lacking in creature comforts. The M3 CSL's time is amazing regardless, especially considering when it was conceived. Would R-Compound tires on the R8 show considerable time improvement with AWD?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RXBG View Post
    sticky. this is another warning. you have posted offensive responses almost twice in a row.
    Do you only read my posts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OfftheHeZie View Post
    Having a mid-engine configuration and only 2 seats does not change that.
    Yeah, but what that does change is the c0mpromises on the handling front. I looked up some articles on thise site & it seems my initial assumptions were correct. The R8 is a built-from-the-ground-up sports car designed for ultimate handling. The ride height & Cog are much lower than the CSL.

    The CSL is based on the E46 & so have many compromises. Do you understand what it involves when having a design sheet with no back seats to worry about? The CSL didn't even have a blank design sheet as it is the E46 chassis it has. The suspension was changed & the roof, & the track was made wider.

    The R8 is a rear-engined car, with no back seats & a high-tech tubular chassis. With lots more power and the all-conquering quattro system. The CSL is an E46 with a Carbon roof. Surely you realise that it shouldn't even be a contest & the R8 should lap the CSL around the Ring. 7:50 is a no brainer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Informer View Post
    What do you mean. Isn't the R8 a supercar or something. No compromises in the handling department? I should kill the CSL's 7:50 ring time.
    It should kill it as a mid engine, but it won't. It will be interesting to see if BMW goes forward with the rumored Z10 mid engine car based around the M5 v10 and then we can have more of a direct comparison. Comparing a mid engine v8 sports car to a 2001 6 cylinder front engine 4 seater sounds far off but definitely shows just how good of a car BMW built.

  5. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Informer View Post
    What luxury & smoothness are you talking about? Where is the engine in the R8? I'm not familiar with the setup. How high is the centre of gravity? Does it have back seats & a trunk? Does it have all these compromises which affect handling?
    Nice post

    I was trying to figure out the luxury and smoothness as well.

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    You act as if it was said the R8 would destroy the M3 around The Ring. The M3 was and is an unbelievable machine, as well as the CSL. The R8 is definately built as a sports car, and you act like BMW did not intend to make the M3 or the CSL as great as they are. What was said was the R8 has more creature comforts than an M3, and especially the CSL. If the R8 does "kill" the CSL's time around the ring, it would be an even more amazing machine than it already is.

    ~Mason
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    One other thing. If Audi based their design philosophy around RWD architecture to make high performance and ultimate driving machines, and a purpose to "kill" an M3, they would have easily accomplished it by now. Audi's engineering department has done wonders with their AWD architecture in making high performance machines with front-engine configurations. The RS4 is a testament of it, no matter how late it came after the E46 conception. So I think this sarcasm and comments about the M3 and CSL vs Audi high-performance machines is unneccessary. Audi's are amazing cars as well as BMW's.

    ~Mason
    1995 Audi A6 Quattro Sedan, 218K miles.
    2009 Audi A5 S-line, 5500 miles.

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    Wow, did they bult the R8 for the creature comforts? Must be like a Rolls inside. But then they went & put the engine behind the driver's head. That must take away a bit of the "creature comforts".

    So what, they put the creature cup holders, but make a loud V8 on a spaceframe chassis a few inched behind your head.

    Don't kid yourself, the R8 is for performance. That's why it doesn't have back seats. The S6 is for creature comforts.

    And it will not be a more amazing creature comfort extraodinaire if it beats the CSL around the Ring. This is a rear engined 2 seater with a 420hp engine. it HAS to beat the CSL. What you think it will be a bonus if it beats the CSL?

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    Did I say they built the R8 for creature comforts, or that it has more. Did I say it wasn't a performance machine? I don't understand why you post things with that "holy BMW" attitude when they are not arguments to what I stated.

    ~Mason
    1995 Audi A6 Quattro Sedan, 218K miles.
    2009 Audi A5 S-line, 5500 miles.

  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    Comparing a mid engine v8 sports car to a 2001 6 cylinder front engine 4 seater sounds far off but definitely shows just how good of a car BMW built.
    For once sticky I agree with you, but the important word you used in your statement was 'built' as past tense. The CSL was a landmark model for BMW which to this date they haven't beaten or even got close to beating, so like I say, if the R8 beats the CSL then that is very high praise indeed.

    Regardless of where the engine is the R8 has moved the game on for Audi and the sports/supercar market. The luxury/smoothness that RXGB rightly talks about is with regards to the smoothness of the ride quality and the luxury being the quality of the components, be it the steering, gearbox, even right down to the stitching on the leather. Every pre-review carried out with the car has commented on a ride quality, the equal of any luxury car and the control the suspension has over bad surfaces. One might think what is the need for such things in a supercar, but Audi have wanted to give the R8 a wider audience than most manufacturers, the 997 has for a very long time had this part of the market for most usable supercar to themselves, what Audi have done it not only given us a much prettier car which combines elegance with supercar looks but makes the Porsche look dated and common and when you compared their abilities in handling and feel the differences in their ride I think we will be amazed as to how Audi have done it.

    To compare the R8 to a yet to be launched M6CSL is just silly, the two cars will only be the same in their capability to cover ground because after that the two will go their separate ways, the R8 providing this capability with it's amazing ride quality and the CSL with it's raw experience. Two car achieving the same results but catering for the opposite customers.

    And as the wheather the M3 will be the equal of the R8, lets see what it does against the RS4 first and then take it from there.
    Search and you will find the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Informer View Post
    Wow, did they bult the R8 for the creature comforts? Must be like a Rolls inside. But then they went & put the engine behind the driver's head. That must take away a bit of the "creature comforts".

    So what, they put the creature cup holders, but make a loud V8 on a spaceframe chassis a few inched behind your head.

    Don't kid yourself, the R8 is for performance. That's why it doesn't have back seats. The S6 is for creature comforts.

    And it will not be a more amazing creature comfort extraodinaire if it beats the CSL around the Ring. This is a rear engined 2 seater with a 420hp engine. it HAS to beat the CSL. What you think it will be a bonus if it beats the CSL?
    Nothing really comes close to the interior of a Rolls, trust me

    The R8 is based on a the gallardo chasis. I don't see any performance compromises, other than AWD (take it how you will, some people want AWD, porsche gives you the option, either way it adds weight.) This is the first time Audi has a vehicle with more weight in the back than the front. The r8 isn't a luxury sedan, it is a sports car.

    I hope it does beat the CSL as it should, 120k mid engine sports car, and we are comparing it to an out of production 3 series chasis?

  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    For once sticky I agree with you, but the important word you used in your statement was 'built' as past tense. The CSL was a landmark model for BMW which to this date they haven't beaten or even got close to beating, so like I say, if the R8 beats the CSL then that is very high praise indeed.

    Regardless of where the engine is the R8 has moved the game on for Audi and the sports/supercar market. The luxury/smoothness that RXGB rightly talks about is with regards to the smoothness of the ride quality and the luxury being the quality of the components, be it the steering, gearbox, even right down to the stitching on the leather. Every pre-review carried out with the car has commented on a ride quality, the equal of any luxury car and the control the suspension has over bad surfaces. One might think what is the need for such things in a supercar, but Audi have wanted to give the R8 a wider audience than most manufacturers, the 997 has for a very long time had this part of the market for most usable supercar to themselves, what Audi have done it not only given us a much prettier car which combines elegance with supercar looks but makes the Porsche look dated and common and when you compared their abilities in handling and feel the differences in their ride I think we will be amazed as to how Audi have done it.

    To compare the R8 to a yet to be launched M6CSL is just silly, the two cars will only be the same in their capability to cover ground because after that the two will go their separate ways, the R8 providing this capability with it's amazing ride quality and the CSL with it's raw experience. Two car achieving the same results but catering for the opposite customers.

    And as the wheather the M3 will be the equal of the R8, lets see what it does against the RS4 first and then take it from there.
    How exactly is BMW supposed to beat their M3 when their new M3 hasn't hit the streets yet? You better believe the new M3 is going to be even more impressive than the CSL. And if there is another CSL, watch out.

    The looks argument is completely subjective. What about the upsides to porsche having reserved styling? First of all, when a new model is launched the older ones don't look completely outdated. Second of all, the 911 silhouette is an expression of reserved beauty that has been around for 40 years. The 911 will never look dated, as it is a classic. Some people still say the 993 is the best looking 911 ever, and it is hard to fault them. The R8 pays the price for pushing the design edge as the design will quickly wear in comparison. The successor, if there is one, will have to go to extreme lengths to retain this quality. Not to mention how porsche tends to hold its value vs. audi due to their restraint. I find it impossible for someone to find the 997 ugly unless they hate 911's. The r8 definitely is a fresh design.

    Audi also has 1 R8 currently. They aren't beating the 911, the 911 can't be beat, they would have had to start 40 years ago. Porsche gives every variation possible, naturally aspirated, turbocharged, lightweight rwd, AWD, whatever you desire. Audi priced themselves too high to truly compete with the base 911. Not to mention sales will never approach 911 levels, so thinking Audi has beat the 911 is not correct, the 911 won before the R8 ever started. The argument could be made that porsche offers more car for less money. I don't think Audi fans should be thinking the R8 is beating the 911, but be thrilled that Audi offers a competitor. If you spend R8 money on a 911 you are in a GT3 or turbo, how will the R8 stack up to those?

  13. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Informer View Post
    Wow, did they bult the R8 for the creature comforts? Must be like a Rolls inside. But then they went & put the engine behind the driver's head. That must take away a bit of the "creature comforts".

    So what, they put the creature cup holders, but make a loud V8 on a spaceframe chassis a few inched behind your head.

    Don't kid yourself, the R8 is for performance. That's why it doesn't have back seats. The S6 is for creature comforts.

    And it will not be a more amazing creature comfort extraodinaire if it beats the CSL around the Ring. This is a rear engined 2 seater with a 420hp engine. it HAS to beat the CSL. What you think it will be a bonus if it beats the CSL?
    I am at a lose as to why a car with only 2 seats can't combine luxury and creature comforts.:eye: Ferrari made the F430 as any out and out racer but the 599 adds to this luxury and comforts, Porsche make the GT3 as an out and out racer but also build the Turbo which combines the speed and handling but in a more luxurious form. Who here would class and EVO more luxurious than a 997Turbo just because it has four seats & doors, none.

    The CSL is a trackday car that was built on a coupe's chassis, there was something very special done to the car for it to knock 30 seconds off it's standard car time, think about it, in only 15+ laps it would have lapped the standard M3. It not as luxurious as the R8, it just a trackday car like a GT3 which doesn't need to be trailered to the track, that's all.
    Search and you will find the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    I am at a lose as to why a car with only 2 seats can't combine luxury and creature comforts.:eye: Ferrari made the F430 as any out and out racer but the 599 adds to this luxury and comforts, Porsche make the GT3 as an out and out racer but also build the Turbo which combines the speed and handling but in a more luxurious form. Who here would class and EVO more luxurious than a 997Turbo just because it has four seats & doors, none.

    The CSL is a trackday car that was built on a coupe's chassis, there was something very special done to the car for it to knock 30 seconds off it's standard car time, think about it, in only 15+ laps it would have lapped the standard M3. It not as luxurious as the R8, it just a trackday car like a GT3 which doesn't need to be trailered to the track, that's all.
    The CSL was built on the E46 chasis, which is a sedan chasis. The 3 series coupe still has 4 seats, and yes 2 doors.

    He isn't saying a car is more luxurious because it has more doors. He is saying that there are compromises in the design of a sedan with a higher center of gravity and being front engine that are not in a dedicated mid engine sports car.

    Saying the GT3 and CSL are trackday only cars is wrong thinking, we went over this before. The GT3, especially the 997, is now an accomplished all around car. The suspension is adjustable and you can adjust the ride to suit you. These are not cars with lexan windows, no AC, no leather, no radio, no navigation, and one seat, especially in the case of the new GT3.. They are built as cars for the street with a racecar pedigree.

  15. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    I don't think Audi fans should be thinking the R8 is beating the 911, but be thrilled that Audi offers a competitor. If you spend R8 money on a 911 you are in a GT3 or turbo, how will the R8 stack up to those?
    The price must be different in the US to the UK. The 997 turbo is all but £20K more expensive and you already know my views on the GT3 so there is no need to go there. I agree that it won't retain the value of a Porsche but then no car does and as for the looks, again it's objective and everyone does have their own tastes, I like Porsches and they have been in the family off and on for quite a few years now, but I personally think it needs to change and in fact drop the rear-engined layout but that is for another post and not this one.

    And as for beating Porsche in all it's forms, it only has to be two, the Carrera S and the 4S, all the others are safe as far as I am concerned.
    Search and you will find the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    The price must be different in the US to the UK. The 997 turbo is all but £20K more expensive and you already know my views on the GT3 so there is no need to go there. I agree that it won't retain the value of a Porsche but then no car does and as for the looks, again it's objective and everyone does have their own tastes, I like Porsches and they have been in the family off and on for quite a few years now, but I personally think it needs to change and in fact drop the rear-engined layout but that is for another post and not this one.

    And as for beating Porsche in all it's forms, it only has to be two, the Carrera S and the 4S, all the others are safe as far as I am concerned.
    We went over the pricing. 108k for a 6 speed R8, 106k for a 997 GT3, base to base. R-tronic 118k vs. turbo 122k, in the US. So maybe they priced themselves too high in the US? Just because Audi prices themselves like a 911 turbo does not mean they are on that level. There were so many threads where people said I was crazy saying the R8 would come at 130k, and looks like it will for an r-tronic with some options, and much more if someone wants ceramic brakes. I said the R8 is not almost 50k better than a carrera S.

    If I am looking for a sports car, I don't see how the R8 would be better than the GT3, from a fun to drive perspective, especially for more money. It will take a v10 R8 for a lot more money (why not just get a gallardo) to try to match the GT3. The R8 will not appeal based on performance for the dollar but for exlusivity and design. I still think 130k for an Audi doesn't sound right.

  17. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    The CSL was built on the E46 chasis, which is a sedan chasis. The 3 series coupe still has 4 seats, and yes 2 doors.

    He isn't saying a car is more luxurious because it has more doors. He is saying that there are compromises in the design of a sedan with a higher center of gravity and being front engine that are not in a dedicated mid engine sports car.

    Saying the GT3 and CSL are trackday only cars is wrong thinking, we went over this before. The GT3, especially the 997, is now an accomplished all around car. The suspension is adjustable and you can adjust the ride to suit you. These are not cars with lexan windows, no AC, no leather, no radio, no navigation, and one seat, especially in the case of the new GT3.. They are built as cars for the street with a racecar pedigree.
    I have driven a 997 GT3 now sticky, and yes the ride has improved but your perspective of comfort must be different to mine. The car is still to hard to be classed as an allrounder, and the thing still dances over the road when the surface is bad, I think the roads in your part of the world are much better than mine because over here no one would class the GT3 as an everyday mode of transport. It an important just not enough.
    Search and you will find the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    I have driven a 997 GT3 now sticky, and yes the ride has improved but your perspective of comfort must be different to mine. The car is still to hard to be classed as an allrounder, and the thing still dances over the road when the surface is bad, I think the roads in your part of the world are much better than mine because over here no one would class the GT3 as an everyday mode of transport. It an important just not enough.
    Whoa whoa whoa, when exactly did this GT3 drive take place? In between your posts of having to check one out since the other day and this one?

    Dances all over the road? Are you sure it was a GT3? The GT3 is glued to the road like nothing else. Maybe the roads are better, or my back is, I mean my friends 996 GT3 was comfortable enough for me, and I love the feeling of feedback that a porsche gives that no one else seems to be able to match. Dozens of old men who actually own the car seem to think it is good enough to be driven everyday, so I think I will stick with their opinion as well as that of the autmotive press. Motortrend has a review of the 997 GT3 up, check it out.

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