New BMW M3. Horsepower and Gearbox info!

[Erik]

I have heard from reliable sources:

The M3 will be released with

~440 hp
MANUAL gear box
Later, a double-clutch will arrive.

[Leadfoot]

I have heard from reliable sources:

The M3 will be released with

~440 hp
MANUAL gear box
Later, a double-clutch will arrive.

If you are correct than the M3 will destroy the RS4 in a straight line.

[Erik]

If you are correct than the M3 will destroy the RS4 in a straight line.

I am sure it will.

[Leadfoot]

The dealer must be being kept in the darker, because they have no knowledge of the power it will produce accept that it will be more than 100hp/litre like before. And in the UK the talk has always been SMG 7speed.

[7:53 RS6]

The CSL is just a mith!!!
Take a normal M3, put some serious rubber, change the camber, canting and suspension settings to optimise it for the ring and there you go... before you serve it add some marketing and you get your "super M3"

Similar words were used by the engeneer that developed and tested the car on the Nordschleife...

So let's take an RS4, ad ome semi slick rubber, adjust the settings to make it more extreme and there you go!!! (or just get the Superstar version from Audisport... that will do as well)

The CSL is not so special... is just another trackday car. And for a trackday car is qite slow!!!

Clearly you are no engineer. If you was one you know its pork that make things happen as well, well you forgot that,( that would be less weight, on the right place) as well the main constuktion of CSL comes att handy on the ring, very well.

And yes this BMW did whit CSL was not that hard for them, but it would be for you. You have no ide how many simulated track test as well real life test made the CSL. And sure its made on a M3, but whit your budget you will not make a CSL from a M3 what ever tiers or chassi you put on, im sorry to say!
CSL is only 2 seconds slower on the ring than all new 997 GT3 RS. CSL main constuktion is sweetspot on the ring, its weight distrubution, as well weight on the right place makes thing happen even whit 265 tiers in rear. Remember CSL got only 360hp vs 997 GT3 RS got 415+ as well the Michelin cup on GT3 are 305 wide.

Clearly you have no ide that latest RS4 was on r-compound when tested on the ring(semi slicks if you will) as well it come stock whit more aggeresive cambersettings than CSL

As well the main constuktion is all wrong in RS4 to that extent it will never go well on track, thats no secret, and its to porky. The only place it go decent is on the ring due to its a fast track. Other tracks, it suffer bad in every hairpin or bend, guess what, tiers and chassi setting will not change this. The new comming main Audi constuktion might do it, if they take of the pork.

The world are full of Pimp my ride tuners like you, but belive mewhatever the chassi you put on your car, you will most likely not make it better than the stock car Audi made, sure yours will be diffrent, but hardly better than stock anyway.

[Leadfoot]

7:53,

To Mr User's defence most people's opinion of the CSL is the same as his regardless how correct it is.

The point you are making about being 2 secs slower than the 997GT3RS and it has 415hp and the CSL 360hp, I doubt the Beemer has only 360hp, you yourself said you felt it was producing 420hp which is possibly nearer the truth.

Another thing, with each year that pasts the test driver is getting older and the time he set 10years ago I bet he would have problems repeating now. The older you are the more difficult it is to drive at the limit.

I must admit with you that it would take a lot more than changing the suspension setting on a RS4 to match the CSL, more like a miracle. But to say the car is a poor track day car is belittling the achievement Audi have made, it as quick and an M6 which has an extra 93hp and weighs no more, has a lot more power to the wheels, possibly a 150hp more in fact.

I don't think the RS4 would be quicker on a public road than a CSL in the right hands, but I bet every normal no track day driver will be able to drive the RS4 quicker down any road than the CSL. This is the RS4 forte if you like and the real reason why it isn't a lot quicker than it is on track.

As yet it's unknown what is the weight of the new S5 and exactly if it does have the new quattro being talked about on this forum, but with the performance figures that Audi are stating over the old S4 then one must assume it's quite a bit lighter and with the improvement to the engine placement regardless how small, we must assume that it will greatly improve on the time set by the S4 (8:27). I personally reckon a time just above the M5's (8:15) is possible which if true would be some achievement for a car over 150hp less powerful.

[skratch]

theres no way the csl has 420hp.The decked out gtr had 400hp that is no way in hell a street engine witch made that much power,using race gas and no emissions standards at all.It also needs a rebuild every race

BMW would of loved to make 420 hp out of a 3.2 staying NA and being street legal because that would give them over 130hp/l witch is impossible to make.

[sticky]

theres no way the csl has 420hp.The decked out gtr had 400hp that is no way in hell a street engine witch made that much power,using race gas and no emissions standards at all.It also needs a rebuild every race

BMW would of loved to make 420 hp out of a 3.2 staying NA and being street legal because that would give them over 130hp/l witch is impossible to make.

It is nice to see someone on here who knows what they are talking about.

[Leadfoot]

theres no way the csl has 420hp.The decked out gtr had 400hp that is no way in hell a street engine witch made that much power,using race gas and no emissions standards at all.It also needs a rebuild every race

BMW would of loved to make 420 hp out of a 3.2 staying NA and being street legal because that would give them over 130hp/l witch is impossible to make.

I only used that figure because 7:53RS6 said his car felt it had as much, this is not an exact figure it's a figure of speech. I do believe the CSL has a lot more than the stated 360hp though and this in no way takes anything away from the CSL abilities, it is some achievement.

130hp/Litre is impossible for a stock engine you say. The Honda S2000 states 240hp out of a 2000cc but I know of ones which have shown 258hp which works out at 129.8hp per litre and Honda S2000 just won the Top Gear Awards for being the most reliable motor with the best dealers. If you still feel it's impossible you should direct your comments that it's impossible for BMW maybe.

May the way the GTR is limited to 400hp that's not how much it makes, it real potential is more like 580 or 600hp.

[7:53 RS6]

7:53,

To Mr User's defence most people's opinion of the CSL is the same as his regardless how correct it is.

The point you are making about being 2 secs slower than the 997GT3RS and it has 415hp and the CSL 360hp, I doubt the Beemer has only 360hp, you yourself said you felt it was producing 420hp which is possibly nearer the truth.

Another thing, with each year that pasts the test driver is getting older and the time he set 10years ago I bet he would have problems repeating now. The older you are the more difficult it is to drive at the limit.

I must admit with you that it would take a lot more than changing the suspension setting on a RS4 to match the CSL, more like a miracle. But to say the car is a poor track day car is belittling the achievement Audi have made, it as quick and an M6 which has an extra 93hp and weighs no more, has a lot more power to the wheels, possibly a 150hp more in fact.

I don't think the RS4 would be quicker on a public road than a CSL in the right hands, but I bet every normal no track day driver will be able to drive the RS4 quicker down any road than the CSL. This is the RS4 forte if you like and the real reason why it isn't a lot quicker than it is on track.

As yet it's unknown what is the weight of the new S5 and exactly if it does have the new quattro being talked about on this forum, but with the performance figures that Audi are stating over the old S4 then one must assume it's quite a bit lighter and with the improvement to the engine placement regardless how small, we must assume that it will greatly improve on the time set by the S4 (8:27). I personally reckon a time just above the M5's (8:15) is possible which if true would be some achievement for a car over 150hp less powerful.

To answer the Hp thing on CSL........this below is a copy from my wrighting in the all highpreforming cars thread about the all New GT3 RS.....

I did wright........The way my stock CSL drive, i guess it would dyno about 420hp then . .............
This was writhen in a way that all should see i was ironic. Due to the way you said the M6 drove so well and it was owerpowerd you said. I said it is SMG and many gears that make this M6 so fast, and its not overpowerd, not are CSL. There are reason why CSL are so fast on the ring, as i said above regarding its weight balance is sweet spot to travel fast on the ring. The way the CSL drive is in a safe way. The Porsche 997 GT3 RS is not that sweetspot on the ring. The wide tiers as well superior power and the wide body on the RS comes at hany on other tracks, not the ring! Power is not all at that track. .

Please see the hole text in all high preforming cars thread about the all New GT3 RS.....and make up your own mind. Did i mean CSL got 420hp?.(No) I did think this was clearly an irony. The CSL got 360hp, and it pull 1.4G on 265 wide tiers, thats why its fast thru the 73 bends on the ring. As well its travels fast in and out of them as well, that mean even its not high, its well( to its weight and balance) powerd it is pretty fast on the straights due to this anyway. A fast Exit out of bends is what make higher speeds in the straight.

Somthing that porky owerpowerd 500-600hp cars often notice on track that is! And last the CSL is totaly devastating fast whit the right driver in entrace a bend, very much a fast bend. The SMG is a factor, it dont lock up going down in gears. That mean that CSL can attack fast corners like no porsche can. CSL got the weight balance and the SMG to humiliate Porsche as well other cars right here. Especally so on the faster bends.

Slow in fast out, the genral old track advice...well thats not somthing one do whit CSL...rather fast in fast out! There are many driving instuctors that even dont know the capacity of a CSL, this car one can drive a bit diffrent than the normal stick shift car. As well the old safe track driving issu told on regular trackdays.......Please make sure you all have done the braking as well the grearing down ....before you turn the streering wheel to make the right hander.....(very common advice on regular trackdays)
Well this has got nothing to do whit the way one drive a SMG car like the CSL One trailbrake the CSL all day long.
The supperior balance and grip of CSL as well the SMG(that dont lock up while down gearing) make it a blast, fore those that know, not all do. In CSL you are allowed to be totaly agressive in downchanging gears in mid corner as well hard on brakes long in to turns. This other cars cant handel in the same effortless way the CSL can. All in all the CSL is a perfect match to make a fast lap on the ring, even its no power car. Lets hope thing progress in new CSL, heck the old CSL is as fast as new GT3 RS on the ring. Sure ...horses for courses. On Hockenheim the CSL get left behing by GT3 RS Not to stange, horses for courses.

New CSL are not in nead of more power than around 400-420. This CSL is getting its power due to it will bee light!! Even comperd to my E 46 M3 CSL, new is getting light! BMW know the market for hobbytrack days cars are up and up. For this reason CSL will bee a blast, light weight for real. E46 CSL was just a begining for BMW to their develop in light materials, they now know more, as well in a more cost effective way(well call it my dream anyway )

[Leadfoot]

The 420hp was no more than a figure of speech. But anyway here's something to show the doubters how much better the CSL is over a standard M3 around a tight track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhPSS9fGvwM

Enjoy.

[skratch]

The honda s2000 is a 2.2liter engine...they upped it from 2.0 becasue they were blowing up engines and had no torque.

and the way BMW rates there engines is a lot strickter than what hondas use.They have been using the new sae standard for a while now.

Like I said before the csl is so fast because its power to weight ratio is very good.

The weight is the biggest factor in why the csl is so fast.Add 300+lbs in your trunk and see how your car feels and then emagine what it would feel like if it lost 300 lbs

take a look at the lotus that has no power at all but smokes most cars out there on the track because it weighs half as much as it comps

I challange you to find a street engine on 91 oct with emission systems up to the 07 standards in place make 131hp/l

Like I said if BMW had more power they would be throwing the numbers around everywhere they had the chance.They already won another best engine of the year award for the s54 in the z4m this year and would of loved to show off 130hp/l or what ever more you think the csl has

[Leadfoot]

The power to weight of a CSL is only 260hp/ton. That is nothing special, especially among hi-performance cars. The RS4 has 258hp/ton, M5 276hp/ton, see the trend and this isn't even supercars like the GT3 and Gallardo etc.

I am very friendly with one of the main dealer in my country and to the best of his knowledge no S2000 engine ever blew up. The S2000 use it be a 2ltr engine producing 240hp and this is the very engine I was talking about that shown 258hp on dyno.

I am lucky enough to get to drive a Lotus or two and know that they are something very special indeed, even more so than a CSL and possibly the best handling car around and the quickest if they only had more power.

As I said the CSL is an amazing car, just because I believe it produces more than they say you go on the defencive, SAE standard means they have to produce the stated figure it says nothing about exceeding them now does it.

[skratch]

The first s2000 was a 2.0 and after 2 years they lowered the rev limit 300rpm and then finally made it a 2.2

that was all for long term reliability.I brought up the sae because jap cars don;t exaclty make what they advertise.

on the other hand because BMW is very honest when they rate there engines,people think they have more power than they really do.from my expeirence they feel way faster than what there rated

theres a big difference if you take two cars with a close power to weight ratio like you used when one car weights 4000lbs and the other weights 3200lbs

like I said before you can only go so fast around a turn untill physics takes over.Those cars you mentioned have good power to weight ratios and screw on the straight away but still can't take the corners as fast as a CSL because of its way lower weight.

If a gallardo weighed 3100 and some change it would be impossible to beat around a track....On the other hand if the csl had 420hp It would be the ring king for a really long time lol

[Leadfoot]

on the other hand because BMW is very honest when they rate there engines,people think they have more power than they really do.from my expeirence they feel way faster than what there rated

theres a big difference if you take two cars with a close power to weight ratio like you used when one car weights 4000lbs and the other weights 3200lbs

like I said before you can only go so fast around a turn untill physics takes over.Those cars you mentioned have good power to weight ratios and screw on the straight away but still can't take the corners as fast as a CSL because of its way lower weight.

If a gallardo weighed 3100 and some change it would be impossible to beat around a track....On the other hand if the csl had 420hp It would be the ring king for a really long time lol

The power thing is something we will differ on, which is OK, there's no harm done.

And I already said it would take a miracle for the RS4 to work with the CSL on the track, anyway as I also said it's not it's forte, but it is the GT3RS forte and as it weight is roughly similar to that of the CSL the physics thing can go out the window. One must look at the differences between the times set for the 996GT3RS and the new one, basically the same yet Porsche has made great advances in both shell rigidity, suspension and power. How come the car isn't improving in the same way as it has done on other tracks and in other magazine tests. It's a real head scratcher if you ask me.

The problem I have with the CSL's quoted power is that no car with a 260hp/ton has ever got close to it's time and this includes greater names than BMW, what does this tell you, that the CSL is amazingly special among the greatest track brands in the business or it's producing more than it says. I don't believe everything I am told - why do you.

The really telling point is when or if BMW re-make the CSL with no more than 400hp and hand it for testing. If it improves on it's time by more than 4 seconds then I will bow to your better judgement.

[7:53 RS6]

The 420hp was no more than a figure of speech. But anyway here's something to show the doubters how much better the CSL is over a standard M3 around a tight track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhPSS9fGvwM

Enjoy.

Well this reminds me that i got one in the garage, its at sleep there all winter.
But to bee frank, the way he drive those cars, well they are meant to go faster around but still its fun to see the rear slide a bit. I guess the CSL and the M3 and the GT3 and the Gallardo etc, etc have more or less what the state they got regarding hp. Accually i reacently got a new softwear to my www.driftbox.com and it now as well show hp. As soon as its spring time i can try it on my CSL. Laptimes etc are as accurat as V-BOX, its same tecnology, but to use a driftbox at track one dont nead to be a rocket enginer to use a driftbox and to get the most out of it, V-box is harder

[7:53 RS6]

The problem I have with the CSL's quoted power is that no car with a 260hp/ton has ever got close to it's time and this includes greater names than BMW, what does this tell you, that the CSL is amazingly special among the greatest track brands in the business or it's producing more than it says. I don't believe everything I am told - why do you.

.

Sorry to delet some ledi, i want it to come out clear.
Wich other car in the same weight to power ratio do you know of that pull 1.4 G?

CSL pull higer G than a 997 GT3 on michelin cup 305 wide tiers. Its not all about power
As well CSL manage this 1.4 G on 265 wide tiers, its not all about power

Once more CSL is on Sport Autos 25 top list of preforming ring cars, regarding the way it pull G. Its on 1 place whit Zonda.
Accualy CSL make so high G that if a decent driver drive the car under half petroltank, well it cant supply fuel very well then. And one nead to fill up, thats the most irretating thing whit the car, anyway.
But its not that a big issu, due to its not many that make CSL go like that anyway, my guess BMW know that it would be potentialy few that have this issu. Its a bit depending on track as well one should mention.

To end, well even me think it did get a bit to much BMW talk now

[skratch]

some more food for thought...Them M3 gtr with 420hp is the second fastest car in the world to lap the ring and it only has 420hp.That car weighs like 2200 lbs(from memory)just to show you how much more important weight is over hp on the ring.

there are lots of turns on that track and that is where the M3 shines.

you should take a look at the g's posted on track challenge on what the csl makes on each turn.

here are some g's from the rs4

1. Nordkurve 110 Km/h (0,9g)
2. End of Querspange 76 Km/h (0,8g)
3. Sachskurve 78 Km/h (0,75g)
4. Süd/-Opelkurve 95 Km/h (0,8g)
5. Goal Straight Line 186 Km/h

Max. Delay in
(6. Ameisenkurve) 11,1 ms/2

and some from the csl

1. Nordkurve 131 Km/h (1,2g)
2. End of Querspange 85 Km/h (1,15g)
3. Sachskurve 86 Km/h (1,3g)
4. Süd/-Opelkurve 109 Km/h (1,15g)
5. Goal Straight Line 184 Km/h

Max. Delay in
(6. Ameisenkurve) 12,2 ms/2

and some from the gt3 RS

1. Nordkurve 131 Km/h (1,15g)
2. End of Querspange 88 Km/h (1,15g)
3. Sachskurve 88 Km/h (1,3g)
4. Süd/-Opelkurve 111 Km/h (1,15g)
5. Goal Straight Line 197 Km/h

Max. Delay in
(6. Ameisenkurve) 12,1 ms/2

Edit the gtr had 450ps sorry

7:00* -- 176.250 km/h – BMW M3 GTR, 450 PS/1100 kg (sport auto 06/04),