Audi R8 "7:55 around Nürburgring"

[Leadfoot]

O, and what ever the set up as you say. The set up as you call it or constuktion, well on R8 its latest technology anyway. What ever the aim on this car was im pretty sure its produced in a sportyway, so the set up as you call it should be up to date also regardig to its aerodynamics, chassis etc, would you not agree.
Its not an old constuction like CSL then is it?

As well M6, RS4, GT3 RS 997, turbo 997 is all brand new set ups then(constuktions). Not old once.

If you look at F1 you would think things have moved on quite a bit in recent years, but that is not really the case. They have dropped things like Active Suspension and Ground Effect, both things that if they were used in today's cars would make an amazing difference. Likewise in modern cars safety plays a bigger role dictating the construction above all else, also economy plays a big role even in supercars, all companies have to show they are trying to improve.

If you look at the front end and rear spoiler of the CSL in comparison with the standard car you can see that the car has been engineered for improved aerodynamics, how much these effect the lift or downforce I am not sure, but they are not for show.

You say that normal tyres don't heat up that much on the ring, if the was the case there would be no need for any semi-race cars like the CSL/GT3RS and the likes to use them, after all these tyres are just about legal for road use and provide almost no grip in the wet. So why have them if they don't provide a benefit. Why, I'll tell you why, all of the above produce different levels of downforce to help the tyres produce extra grip which in turn produces extra heat aiding the compound in these tyres to produce even more grip. Normal cars even the likes of the M6 and the RS4 don't produce this downforce, they are at best trying to stop lift which as we all know was the downfall of the original TT and lead to the accidents that happen just after launch.

I will agree that the ring is not comparable to other high G short tracks as though it does allow cars to produce high Gs the track is more about controlling the unsettling forces that each corner puts on the car.

The CSL is an amazing car, no one is doubting that, but have you not ever asked yourself why has BMW with all it's experience on the ring not been able to better this blast from the past. The M5/M6/M Coupe and all bets are that the new M3 won't even get close to it's time, why when as you said it's the latest technology.

Don't for one moment think that the CSL is just a dickied M3, there was a lot more to that car than just a few lighter panels, race tyres and a grippy steering wheel.

Please accept that the R8 is an amazing car, both striking and comfortable, drivable and entertaining and the equal of the competition eg. the Gallardo/F430 and the likes and stop comparing it to the CSL who's real competition is and was the GT3 in all it's forms and the likes of the Vette Z06, cars designed for one purpose only to use race technology to aid their ability of going around a track as quickly as possible and to hell with everything else.

[7:53 RS6]

If you look at F1 you would think things have moved on quite a bit in recent years, but that is not really the case. They have dropped things like Active Suspension and Ground Effect, both things that if they were used in today's cars would make an amazing difference. Likewise in modern cars safety plays a bigger role dictating the construction above all else, also economy plays a big role even in supercars, all companies have to show they are trying to improve.

If you look at the front end and rear spoiler of the CSL in comparison with the standard car you can see that the car has been engineered for improved aerodynamics, how much these effect the lift or downforce I am not sure, but they are not for show.
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@ ledi
I have driven the Döttingerhöhe section on the ring whit a broken front spoiler as well many times whit complete spolier. You know the Döttingerhöe is the fastest section on the ring, so yes i happen to know there are a reason for cars to have spoilers on them. A CSL travels about 260-270 on speedo if one is man to not do the confidence lift on the way down to Tiergarten that is.
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You say that normal tyres don't heat up that much on the ring, if the was the case there would be no need for any semi-race cars like the CSL/GT3RS and the likes to use them, after all these tyres are just about legal for road use and provide almost no grip in the wet. So why have them if they don't provide a benefit. Why, I'll tell you why, all of the above produce different levels of downforce to help the tyres produce extra grip which in turn produces extra heat aiding the compound in these tyres to produce even more grip. Normal cars even the likes of the M6 and the RS4 don't produce this downforce, they are at best trying to stop lift which as we all know was the downfall of the original TT and lead to the accidents that happen just after launch.
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@ledi
Its well known that one of the few tracks one can manage to drive pretty well whit street tiers is on the ring! If you drove ther you know. Shorter track where speed is low as well hairpins etc, well this make street tiers suffer to very much higher extent. This is the same reason why a Ford Mondeo kombi on winter friction tiers as well is in a way is fun on the ring(drove one 2 month ago, as well Cayman, 997 turbo, BMW all new 320SI, and last BMW 318.) Due to its a fast track and the physiques of a car is as you as well mentioned not that obvius on the ring, well most cars is fun there and the street tiers do lhandel it pretty well. They dont last even a few laps on a short track, they overheat faster there. I think we agree on that.

That street tiers do just fine on the ring, very fine on some cars(awd) well......This has nothing to do whit the nead for other compound is not there!. One thing dont leave out the other, im sure you know where im going. As well i know there are superior tiers than street. I happen to drive my CSL whit a racelogics dritbox all time latly, even its no V-box its as precise regarding laptime and real speed. Even the G shows. (driftangels etc) Sport auto use on as well, as well many other testing mags.

You sems to forget the cars like M5/6 RS4 whatever , less or more downforce, they have a critical issu that as well make them not so fast on track and not pull higher G(weight)
Even a few hevy cars manage to pull some G, the above dont. Aston Martin V8 vantage or Mercedes CLK DTM, this CLK at almost 1700kg it pull1.3 G acording to sport auto. Accived whit minimal movment in the chassi as well wide sport tiers, it laps at 7.54 min whit 582hp and 800nm and a automatic transmision.
Wich put the DTM CLK at 12 place on sport autos 25 fastest ring cars List(CSL is on 7th place)
Lets see wait and see where Horst put the R8 on his list then, as of now we dont know. We know Audi do fine interior, but still its more to it that that beeing a modern sportscar, or?
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I will agree that the ring is not comparable to other high G short tracks as though it does allow cars to produce high Gs the track is more about controlling the unsettling forces that each corner puts on the car.

The CSL is an amazing car, no one is doubting that, but have you not ever asked yourself why has BMW with all it's experience on the ring not been able to better this blast from the past. The M5/M6/M Coupe and all bets are that the new M3 won't even get close to it's time, why when as you said it's the latest technology.

Don't for one moment think that the CSL is just a dickied M3, there was a lot more to that car than just a few lighter panels, race tyres and a grippy steering wheel.

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@ Ledi No i have not asked my self why they have not beat the blast from the past whit the cars you mention. I know som things you apperantly dont. Well guess why, M,s aim whit the porker M5/6 or M coupe was never to go faster than CSL. They are pretty smart guys, the market are not asking for a M5 or M6 or M coupe that is faster than CSL on track, now are they. What fool would try to make a 1844kg M5 go faster than a 1421kg CSL. What marketing guy would allow M coupe to come stock on R-compound, so it could have a try for it? M coupe has not been tested whit R-compound on the ring as i know? As well the aim whit it was not to out lap CSL. What ever the power the M5 would had, it would not been faster than CSL you see, as well latest technology cant exaktly do magic to pork, can it?.

There are reasons why cayman dont have a diffrential, there are reasons why R8 might not go faster than gallardo on track, i dont know?

As far as new M3, well its no CSL, sure it will have power, but thats not all on track is it! New M3 will sell to the mass, whit all extra options, adding pork. I dont belive anything else than M peopel will let it go less fast than CSL on track, i might be wrong, but i dont think so.
I do know for sure if new CSL will build. But if, well here it comes, this cars aim is to go faster than old CSL, as well new GT3 RS that lap at 7.45 min. New CSL will easy go faster than this, and it will not do it by pure engin power let alone, no the new CSL will rely be light, thats where one gain speed at track. M department know this. As well maketing BMW guys know today weekend trackdays event is getting bigger and bigger, so by the time CSL is here its fore the few focused track hobby drivers, driving back and forth to tracks in it, the extra options and pork is in normal M3.
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Please accept that the R8 is an amazing car, both striking and comfortable, drivable and entertaining and the equal of the competition eg. the Gallardo/F430 and the likes and stop comparing it to the CSL who's real competition is and was the GT3 in all it's forms and the likes of the Vette Z06, cars designed for one purpose only to use race technology to aid their ability of going around a track as quickly as possible and to hell with everything else.

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@ Ledi
Regarding R8, i have never said anything else than its a nice car.
Last i agree here.
But if you read Audi marketing text, they talk big of ractechnology in R8 dont they?

Cheers

[Leadfoot]

[Quote 7:53RS6]@ Ledi No i have not asked my self why they have not beat the blast from the past whit the cars you mention. I know som things you apperantly dont. Well guess why, M,s aim whit the porker M5/6 or M coupe was never to go faster than CSL. They are pretty smart guys, the market are not asking for a M5 or M6 or M coupe that is faster than CSL on track, now are they. What fool would try to make a 1844kg M5 go faster than a 1421kg CSL. What marketing guy would allow M coupe to come stock on R-compound, so it could have a try for it? M coupe has not been tested whit R-compound on the ring as i know? As well the aim whit it was not to out lap CSL. What ever the power the M5 would had, it would not been faster than CSL you see, as well latest technology cant exaktly do magic to pork, can it?.

As far as new M3, well its no CSL, sure it will have power, but thats not all on track is it! New M3 will sell to the mass, whit all extra options, adding pork. I dont belive anything else than M peopel will let it go less fast than CSL on track, i might be wrong, but i dont think so.
I do know for sure if new CSL will build. But if, well here it comes, this cars aim is to go faster than old CSL, as well new GT3 RS that lap at 7.45 min. New CSL will easy go faster than this, and it will not do it by pure engin power let alone, no the new CSL will rely be light, thats where one gain speed at track. M department know this. As well maketing BMW guys know today weekend trackdays event is getting bigger and bigger, so by the time CSL is here its fore the few focused track hobby drivers, driving back and forth to tracks in it, the extra options and pork is in normal M3.[quote]


Thanks, you have basically answered the question I have being putting to you. The rest of the M cars are no track specials like the CSL, this is also true of the R8, Gallardo, F430, RS4 etc. all these including the rest of the M cars are for road use and if the customer wishes be taken on to the track and have a bit of fun.

This is why some of the guys get annoyed when you bring up the CSL every time an Audi does an amazing lap at the ring, compare apples with apples they say, the RS4 with the new M3 is a fair comparison as will be the RS6 with the M5 but not the CSL.

The fact that an Audi is beating a BMW around a track is cause for a celebration, because it proves that not only is Audi's nose-heavy quattro cars amazing on the road as we all know but they are very handy on the track as well.

I look forward to BMW's venture back into the supercar market and hope they do a lot better sales wise than their last, because without BMW making cars we would not have them as a yard stick to gauge Audi's brilliance.

[7:53 RS6]

Peace

Last.. CSL is very far from a racecar!

It happen to be a street car that drives well on track

Gee.. its some days my family car, we sit in 4 persons driving to the macdonald whit the golfclubs in the back trunk

Best we let som other peopel wright here now

R8 looks stunning, great pitch from audi, to bad they nead to take lamborgini in to calculations(gallardo).

[Leadfoot]

7:53RS6,

You are willing to admit that the CSL is a little special compared to the rest of the M series of cars. For heaven sakes it the same as the GT3RS, yes you can use it everyday just like the rest of the 911 range but it isn't built for the same purpose as the rest of them. Very few people would think of taking a CSL or GT3 on a grand tour of Europe in the same way as they would the M3 or the Turbo.

Like what the rest of the gang say, compare like with like.

[7:53 RS6]

7:53RS6,

You are willing to admit that the CSL is a little special compared to the rest of the M series of cars. For heaven sakes it the same as the GT3RS, yes you can use it everyday just like the rest of the 911 range but it isn't built for the same purpose as the rest of them. Very few people would think of taking a CSL or GT3 on a grand tour of Europe in the same way as they would the M3 or the Turbo.

Like what the rest of the gang say, compare like with like.

Yes, yes....it was just a thought

Even i driven the CSL from Sweden to Poland and back, and it dident hurt my back, and its pretty comfy accualy on long trips, sure some times one would like to lean the seat down, wich cant bee done in the bucketseats.. I think its a myth that the car can hardly drive on streets. I was going to one GT track in Poland, and let me say this, if my vissit was others than track....wel ok i would driven the trip down in one other car, the RS4/6, horses for courses as one say

[Leadfoot]

Oh 7:53 RS6 that must have hurt to admit that in the end I was right. At least we can both admit, that like the CSL the R8 is one hell of a car.

[7:53 RS6]

Oh 7:53 RS6 that must have hurt to admit that in the end I was right. At least we can both admit, that like the CSL the R8 is one hell of a car.

I think its no wrong or right, we all see tings diffrent. As well express things in their weiw, thats the intresting thing whit forums. We have discused so long here, whats right or wrong? Nothing might bee, we all see things in diffrent ways, dont we.

[Leadfoot]

I think its no wrong or right, we all see tings diffrent. As well express things in their weiw, thats the intresting thing whit forums. We have discused so long here, whats right or wrong? Nothing might bee, we all see things in diffrent ways, dont we.

OK, but I deep down I know you agree with me.

[Speedou]

So it was comparing R8 to other sportcars, not to the CSL Which anyway is totally different. But I admit Leadfood, both are great cars!

[Leadfoot]

So it was comparing R8 to other sportcars, not to the CSL Which anyway is totally different. But I admit Leadfood, both are great cars!

Speedou, if you had read any of my posts you know I rate the CSL very highly indeed, but compare like with like. If someone say the new M3 is an amazing car and did a 8:02 lap and I said so what the Carrera GT did it 30 seconds quicker then everyone would rightly say unfair comparison, just because one costs 5 times as much isn't the unfair part, it's the fact that the Carrera GT is a supercar honed for the track.

The R8 is a rival to the likes of the Aston, 997, XKR etc. the fact that it's producing times to equal the likes of the F430 is amazing and a feat not to be played down just by saying it's not as quick as something that with design to go as quickly around the ring as BMW could possibly make it.

Regardless of what 7:53RS6 says it's not an M3 for comfort and touring in just the same way as the GT3 isn't as comfortable as a Carrera S. If Audi bring out a R8 track special than lets compare it with the GT3 and the CSL but until that day lets compare it with the competition.

[7:53 RS6]

Nice car, as well reported to be fast. Every time i see these new sportscars on the market i kind of get reminded of how great the CSL are(still even old)


Sorry

I quote my self, to ease down the gentlemen.

Nice car, i said at begining of this tread, about the R8.

Then i got sentimental about an very old BMW sportscar, fore that i did say im sorry. This was in a way said, so that i would not nead my flame suit fhuther on

At this point there was no comparing was it, untill you started of whit, well, it got R-tiers, etc, etc.

I replied and it was on, but see my text, i put CSL against its tru competitors, if you read it you see, 997GT3 RS , 996 GT3 RS, etc..

What ever, why do you even think this non offical R8 time is out in the air, Audi compare them self whit others. Kind of normal we compare Audi R8 as well.

Dont forget that this time mentioned is not the officall time for R8. Horst has not driven it. All other times mentioned are offically driven by Horst. My guess is Horst lap R8 at same time he lap a 997 carerra S on street tiers, 8.04 min.

When we guess Horst time before he driven the new RS4, and the non officall Stippler time was out at sub 8 min whit the new RS4, well i was spot on guessing the RS4s time, i was of by some second if i remember correct. Its on the forum some where, fun reading after some time gone by. Some here was, well to say the least optimistic and guesed that new RS4 would lap in CSL region, they was of by 25 seconds.

BMW also rapport a sub 8 min lap on M5, not that i use that time for compring cars to it.

Some would see R8 as an all new developed extrem mid engine sportscar, whit race technology in it, apperently you dont see it in this way, you see the 4 year old CSL as somthing more extrem.
Well guess how new CSL will bee, if one have in mind you rate a old produkt like CSL so high, that it still after many yeras, according to you in no way, shape or form could compare round a track against CSL!

Have you read what Audi them self say about R8, and in what ways they mention the car. Whit its diffusors and the aerodynamics was in focus while developed the car. Its lubricate system of engine, a inheritance from motorsport, etc, etc.

All car driven at the track,green hell, are in some ways in it for the comparing game
You say R8 is not fair to compare to CSL, i say in many way it is, also as its a totaly new up to date extrem sportscar at high tech level, at high price. Accualy its audis first real sports car, why not compare it to CSL, its the only thing close to it anyway at track, fore that reason its logic. And in some ways i see your point that they not compare.

[Leadfoot]

Fair point 7:53RS6 and sorry for going on as well. I reckon we two have very strong views on the subject that spills out into print on this forum. I posted on another tread that I reckon Horst is less use to driving awd cars and the quattro set-up more than most what with it's 40/60 split and being nose heavy, that maybe why his time is that much slower than Audi's unofficial time of 7:58. I believe the R8 will perform a lot better in his hands though especially as it's weight and awd system is more attune to a rwd set-up.

I would go out on a limb and say sub-8 minutes is still on the cards.