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Thread: R8 competition heats up.

  1. #37
    Registered User Damienr8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    I don't think you really brought this off topic, we are still discussing the competition and I probably brough it off topic, but whatever

    I think 0-60 won't tell the whole story. The R8 should be able to do a better 0-60 than the M cars due to the AWD. 0-60 is traction limited in rwd cars with over 500 hp.

    I think if audi wants to really take it to the competition the V8 R8 needs to be very close to the V10 gallardo. Audi can't be worrying about stepping on the gallardo's toes to make the most of this vehicle. I also think whatever motor goes in the RS6 is the one that should go in the R8.
    I am sure the R8 will do wonders with handling, grip, etc. as opposed to 0-60 times, no doubt about it. But as sad as it is, the case is that Audi IS worried about the R8 stepping on the Gallardo.

  2. #38
    Moderator RXBG's Avatar
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    sticky

    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    I don't think you really brought this off topic, we are still discussing the competition and I probably brough it off topic, but whatever

    I think 0-60 won't tell the whole story. The R8 should be able to do a better 0-60 than the M cars due to the AWD. 0-60 is traction limited in rwd cars with over 500 hp.

    I think if audi wants to really take it to the competition the V8 R8 needs to be very close to the V10 gallardo. Audi can't be worrying about stepping on the gallardo's toes to make the most of this vehicle. I also think whatever motor goes in the RS6 is the one that should go in the R8.
    one doesn't need to actually quote a mag to post an opinion. facts are facts only if they are explicitly stated to be such.

    i will give you facts (that i cannot quote from audi AG b/c i'd sell out people i cannot):

    1. R8 V10 will not be the same V10 as in the RS6 V10 at least not "exactly"
    2. the V8 R8 is much faster than people think........
    Past- A4, TT, S4

    Present- R8 V10

  3. #39
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    Audi got banned in their rally racing. Winning a race has nothing to do with how the car feels when YOU drive it. I really don't think you are taking your audi and entering it in a race everytime you hit the road. It should be very simple to understand that RWD is lighter, allows more power to the wheels, and allows easy power on correction.

    Porsche puts their motors in the back, so don't know how you are using this to bolster your argument. Out of manufacturers that put their motor in the front, BMW is the most consistent at keeping a perfect weight distribution. One thing we can agree on, Audi's understeer compared to BMW's due to the weight in the front.

    Did you read the tests where the S6 won? What pushed the S6 over? It certainly wasn't the performance as the M5 is in a different league. It was the price, when that is taken out of the equation, the S6 matches up better with a 550i and e550 than an M5 or E63. Those cars both are cheaper and offer up the same performance. You are insane if you think the S6 even holds a candle to the M5 or E63, the performance difference is worlds apart, and performance is what the M5 and E63 are about.
    Let me answer each point made by you as best I can.

    Firstly agreed we don't rally our cars every time we take them on the road, but the point was more that awd is the choice of all leading manufacturers so proves it advantage over rwd especially on road use and in all weather conditions. As for easier power on corrections, hello, if you have ever watched the FifthGear video of the M3 vs RS4 you will see the M3 produced a 38degree slid angle where as the RS4 recovered from a 90degree slid angle, now which is the easier to power on correct.

    Secondly Porsche reference was used to prove that you don't need 50/50 weight balance to produce a perfect driving experience. As for your argument that BMWs understeer less than Audis do because of this perfect balance you talk about. Audi engineer understeer in for safety, something that BMW are starting to do, fwd or awd don't have to understeer because of this weight balance, the Integra Type-R doesn't and neither does the EVOs, it is Audi's choice to have understeer something I think most people are thankful of.

    Thirdly the S6 vs M5 debate. As I have already said the S6 can't match the M5 on out right performance but on a recent test around a test track it all but matched the M5 and all this with an extra 150kgs and 80 less horsepower. If you put the test to a twisty road where there is no run off areas or gravel traps then yes I do think the S6 will be more than a match for the M5. You keep forgetting that most of the people who buy this cars aren't Arton Senna etc, they are normal and this is where the extra safety and confidence of awd pay big time and no 50/50 weight balance, rwd or all the might of your Ultimate Driving Machine will ever beat that.

    And lastly you say that the S6 shouldn't be in the same leagues of the M5 or E63amg, well you are back to your pub figures argument, mines quicker than yours. If that's your only defense then you can keep your M5 etc and good luck to you, but no thanks I prefer quality not quantity.

    Sticky, I don't know where all this argumentative side has come from but at last count I think you has got the back up on about 6 people and that's the ones that are replying to you. Take some QuietLife and watch some fish, you really need to take it easy.
    Last edited by Leadfoot; January 11th, 2007 at 23:31.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  4. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    Let me answer each point made by you as best I can.

    Firstly agreed we don't rally our cars every time we take them on the road, but the point was more that awd is the choice of all leading manufacturers so proves it advantage over rwd especially on road use and in all weather conditions. As for easier power on corrections, hello, if you have ever watched the FifthGear video of the M3 vs RS4 you will see the M3 produced a 38degree slid angle where as the RS4 recovered from a 90degree slid angle, now which is the easier to power on correct.

    Secondly Porsche reference was used to prove that you don't need 50/50 weight balance to produce a perfect driving experience. As for your argument that BMWs understeer less than Audis do because of this perfect balance you talk about. Audi engineer understeer in for safety, something that BMW are starting to do, fwd or awd don't have to understeer because of this weight balance, the Integra Type-R doesn't and neither does the EVOs, it is Audi's choice to have understeer something I think most people are thankful of.

    Thirdly the S6 vs M5 debate. As I have already said the S6 can't match the M5 on out right performance but on a recent test around a test track it all but matched the M5 and all this with an extra 150kgs and 80 less horsepower. If you put the test to a twisty road where there is no run off areas or gravel traps then yes I do think the S6 will be more than a match for the M5. You keep forgetting that most of the people who buy this cars aren't Arton Senna etc, they are normal and this is where the extra safety and confidence of awd pay big time and no 50/50 weight balance, rwd or all the might of your Ultimate Driving Machine will ever beat that.

    And lastly you say that the S6 shouldn't be in the same leagues of the M5 or E63amg, well you are back to your pub figures argument, mines quicker than yours. If that's your only defense then you can keep your M5 etc and good luck to you, but no thanks I prefer quality not quantity.

    Sticky, I don't know where all this argumentative side has come from but at last count I think you has got the back up on about 6 people and that's the ones that are replying to you. Take some QuietLife and watch some fish, you really need to take it easy.
    I like a good discusison I'm not going to run over to your home and beat you with your keyboard.

    I'll address each one of your points now:

    1. The RS4 recovered from a larger slide, it wasn't as CONTROLLABLE when sliding. He basically pitched the car sideways, he would not be able to sustain a longer drift or correct with power. Yes, traction allows recovery but the 4WD is not friendly for sideways shenanigans or power on oversteer.

    2. Audi traditionally has had their weight up front. They still do, the R8 is the first car to break this mold. Audi's understeer isn't just there for safety, it is how physics apply when the weight is on the front wheels. BMW's understeer as well, just as a much higher limit allowing for the most part a higher cornering limit. Every major auto manufacturer has a level of understeer dialed in for safety. With electronic nannies you have to turn them off to really get yourself into trouble, with which how good these systems are getting I don't see a reason to turn the stability control off to gain a 1/10 of a second if you are a pro driver around a circuit. The integra type R does understeer, but very minimally and at the limit as it is superbly balanced. All FWD's do to an extent, how wouldn't they?

    3. One thing we can agree on is the performance difference, as it is can't really be disputed. These are performance cars, if you just want the comfort and safety, a standard A6 will do nicely. Styling and all the others are subjective and the S6 is a beauty inside and out. I have never owned an AWD cars (my SUV's aside of course) and don't see any reason to. Perhaps I am in the minority saying I would prefer a lighter, RWD R8. Where I live it rarely rains and I can have summer tires on all year. From a purely performance standpoint, the M5 stands above. I am all for the RS6 to come, and come quickly, as the S6 really doesn't have the power to take the crown. I am patiently waiting for Audi to respond to the 63's and M5's and I am sure they will.
    Last edited by sticky; January 12th, 2007 at 00:19. Reason: error

  5. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RXBG View Post
    one doesn't need to actually quote a mag to post an opinion. facts are facts only if they are explicitly stated to be such.

    i will give you facts (that i cannot quote from audi AG b/c i'd sell out people i cannot):

    1. R8 V10 will not be the same V10 as in the RS6 V10 at least not "exactly"
    2. the V8 R8 is much faster than people think........
    Weren't you the one who was also saying it was going to weight much less than it does?

    I don't doubt that it won't be same motor as the RS6. I am saying I wish it was.

  6. #42
    Registered User Damienr8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    Weren't you the one who was also saying it was going to weight much less than it does?

    I don't doubt that it won't be same motor as the RS6. I am saying I wish it was.
    I am glad to see that everyone kept themselves together at the outskirts of this discussion. Now back to the topic :trash:

    "For 2009 MY- it will be a year of V10 monsters.
    the NSX
    the LF-A
    and the V6 or V8 GTR"

    Not counting the GTR (As it will most likely not contain a V10) do you all think that Lexus and Acura will put V10 in their initial production models or would they start off with V8's and then offer a V10 model in the future.

    You opinions on this.

  7. #43
    Registered User Lateknight's Avatar
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    Can we have smilies depicted with handbags. I think we could have used some back there.

    Things can get a bit emotive when talking about someones pride and joy.

    back on topic - thanks Damienr8

    2009: the year of the V10: about time

    Honda NSX being the most anticipated of that bunch (more out of curiosity than anything else)

    IMO there is nothing to beat the sound of a 'fruity' V10

    Its gonna be an awsome year.
    Possibly a last hurrah for these types of car before the greenies/global warming/oil shortages starts to bite.

    p.s According to CAR mag the GTR will have a 4ltr v6 (a derivative of the current 350z engine) if thats true, and CAR mag are not exactly very good with their info, I cant see it being as bombproof as the outgoing RB26 motor.

  8. #44
    Moderator RXBG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    Weren't you the one who was also saying it was going to weight much less than it does?

    I don't doubt that it won't be same motor as the RS6. I am saying I wish it was.
    i stated only what my sources can tell me. re: weight i am sure i stated my opinion on various counts. further, weight and numbers are a very variable issue, as has been the case with the various weights of the gallardo, both from mags, the lambo website, and lambo press releases. there have been various threads on such topics.

    i think you need to lighten up a bit, don't you? be a little more respectful and less hostile.
    Past- A4, TT, S4

    Present- R8 V10

  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RXBG View Post
    i stated only what my sources can tell me. re: weight i am sure i stated my opinion on various counts. further, weight and numbers are a very variable issue, as has been the case with the various weights of the gallardo, both from mags, the lambo website, and lambo press releases. there have been various threads on such topics.

    i think you need to lighten up a bit, don't you? be a little more respectful and less hostile.
    I think you are misinterpreting my tone but I will do my best to sugar coat things so that no one gets upset and gets hurt typing up a storm Come on, we are all adults here.

    I think everyone is here to discuss cars. I was just mentioning that the info you get isn't always right so the comments about the V8 being suprisingly fast I take with a grain of salt. I would love to see something that would back up this assertion.

    Is the V8 going to be close the gallardo?

  10. #46
    Registered User Cale24's Avatar
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    Simply put, I reckon the R8 will lie between a Carrera S and a Gallardo in pace.

  11. #47
    Moderator RXBG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cale24 View Post
    Simply put, I reckon the R8 will lie between a Carrera S and a Gallardo in pace.
    if memory serves me well......averaging out the 0-60 times the RS4 has tested in various mags leaves me with about 4.5 seconds. with quarter miles in the mid to upper 12s.

    weighing about 500 lbs less and with a weight distribution more friendly to traction and acceleration times, i would suspect that the manual transmissioned variant should average at least 0.2-0.3 seconds quicker to 60. and low to mid 12s in the quarter mile.
    Past- A4, TT, S4

    Present- R8 V10

  12. #48
    Registered User tazsura's Avatar
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    Last one from me on the 'off-topic' with-in this topic! I promise....

    I'm sorry, im sorry, but i just don't understand where this CLEAR Advantage reasoning the F430 has over the Gallardo comes from. Sticky, you keep using the term 'bloated'...in what context? Forgive me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the F430 have a kerb weight of 1450Kg and the Gallardo 1470Kg (ish)? Considering it has 2 more cylinders and 4WD...this is not bad at all. Yes the F430 does 'feel' lighter on its feet, but also much much less assured with its nervous rear end. Around a track the F430 has not been proved to be that much faster, and on everyday roads and day-to-day driving the Gallardo trumps it. It suffers minimnal understeer and is planted in all conditions. The only complaint coming from testers seems to be initial brake pedal feel.

    As for 50/50 weight distribution...hmm. I agree Front engined RWD configuration is very good. But if 50/50 is the way forward, why does the Maser Quattroporte lap the EVO track faster than the M5 even though its Kerb weight is 1940Kg and it doesn't have the much-hyped SMG AND is down on power. ? Maybe the 46:54 distribution of the Maser is the way forward.....

    The E90 M3 Vs B7 RS4 WON'T be, like you suggested, the B6 S4 Vs E46 M3 contest. The RS is completely different to the S4. The E90 M3 will be fantastic IMO. It don't really see how it can fail to be. I do however hope its V8 is like the M5 V10.....because then the V8 in the RS4 will already trump it in terms of sound...NO CONTEST. The BM V10 sounds horrid....and is no contest for the vocal delights of the Lambo V10 or the Porsche V10.

    Straight line test may be the be-all in the US...but here (in the UK) when the roads get twisty and both driver ability and handling come into focus, the merits of a sure-footed, well resolved car come to the fore-front.

    I'm done on this topic now.....

    Taz
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  13. #49
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    sticky,

    You make valid points as well.

    The weight of the front axle is there but with any awd system that have the engine in the front will always have this problems and still called itself a practical/family car. Understeer is in all car agreed but to say that the Audi understeers first is not the case if it was then this would show up in lap times which it doesn't.

    I couldn't agree more that the M3 can produce a long power slide than a RS4, my point was that the RS4 can be recovered from a greater slid proving it's advantage of awd.

    And finally the M5, E63. Both are great cars and I personally love the looks of the M5 but I have always felt that Audi produce a better balance sportscar than either of them and the reasons for this is it's design makes it's power more accessible to more people especially there these cars were intended namely the road.

    Lets put this debate to bed and agree to disagree.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  14. #50
    Registered User tazsura's Avatar
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    Now, coming back to TOPIC!

    Out of the playa's in the contest, I would go for the R8. It's the most complete package. No question.

    The NSX, I hope, will be a worthy sucessor to the original. If it is it will be unbelievable. But the same problem remain...image. No matter how good the car is. I think it would sell better than the last one, maybe pinch a few of the GTR's following.

    The GTR again falls into the trap. Should be great. Looks less 'Max Power'd' that the last one...but still not a classy enough design.

    Both need to turn up the Interior design and quality wicks CONSIDERABLY to even hope to get near the R8.

    Car nuts will love the NSX and GTR, but which car would you rather pull up outside a swanky restaurant in?

    Taz
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  15. #51
    Registered User Cale24's Avatar
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    Has anyone seen those 'Best Motoring' clips (japanese car program > shoot-outs with varied sportscars)?? The latest one has a Gallardo vs M6 vs 997 Turbo vs NSX-R. Around the track, the quickest car is the Gallardo, but the NSX amazingly manages to keep them all behind, Turbo second. I believe this is a modified car, despite what they claim- it's had seemingly IMPOSSIBLE wins in every sort of contest, even straight-line races, for so long. If anyone can enlighten me I'd appreciate it! If the car is legit, a new NSX would be awesome.

  16. #52
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Taz,

    I know I got a little off topic, but felt I needed to make sticky understand where I was coming from.

    Back to topic, the R8 only real rivals based on looks and quality are the 997, Gallardo, F430 and the Vantage. The Jap things are not up to the quality feel of the above no matter how good they reliability is.

    The NSX and GTR will in my opinion be right up there with regards to performance and handling, but really they will appeal to a different class of people, the one that has grown up with the Play Station and X-Box, the R8 will appeal to people who has out grown such things and are more interested the feel and looks of things.

    Cale24,

    I have always thought the same about the 'Best Motoring' videos, the NSX especially seems to beat almost everything right upto twice the power. Some say that this 276hp limit the Jap companies set as their limit is untrue and the NSX and GTR make in the regions of 350~370hp, even the EVOs and Scooby makes a lot more than the 276hp limit.

    Why have it when no one uses it?
    Search and you will find the truth.

  17. #53
    Registered User tazsura's Avatar
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    Leadie,

    'Now, coming back to TOPIC!' - This wasn't intended for you...it was for me! Your reply to my post was too quick (!)and i didn't get my 2nd post in before yours. Sorry for any confusion buddy!

    And I know where your coming from too, hence my response to previous commets about the Gallardo, M5 et al. Some things just need to be said!

    Bang on with the REAL R8 rivals. They offer the complete package while offering subtle differences to one another. The F430 and Gallardo are obviously the more overtly sporting of the group, while the Vantage and 997 offer greater versatility. I can't wait to see how the R8 compares. I really do feel that this car is going to be much quicker than figures are suggesting. I know i keep going on about it..but the engine from the RS4 is just an absolute peach...and it is engine is perfect for the R8. Much the way the Roush designed V12 is the defining piece in the Mclaren F1, IMO the V8 in the R8 will be to.

    P.S...that 276BHP rule is a joke and should be scrapped...no way are the NSX et al producing ONLY 276BHP.

    Taz
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  18. #54
    Registered User Damienr8's Avatar
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    Hey what are your thoughts on Lexus entering into the fray? I am hoping lexus puts some ambition into the LF-A to set it apart from its competitors. There are so many new cars coming out in the next 2 years that fall into the "sports coupe", "sports sedan", etc. categories. I can't wait to see magazine comparisons!

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