B8 S4 is a B7 RS4 KILLER

[M3 owner]

Hello mates,hope ur all well.


http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/feature.jsp?id=156&page=2

[nene]

As Japan moves towards offering more hybrid vehicles, the Germans are just craming more and more power into their small engine bays!

What gives? Does anyone think that the Saudi Arabia princes are paying off German car manufacturers under the table?
Just thinking outside the box!

More power to them (no pun intended)!

[AndyBG]

440hp, maybe litle too mutch for start, i recon,

4.2 V8 - 380 - 400hp for new :s4addict:

[tazsura]

Yeh, I agree with AndyBG, 440BHP is too big a jump in power for one generation change and i can't see Audi sticking the V10 in the A4. I think there is a limit to the number of cyclinders a car the size of the A4 should have. I think 8 is probably the max! The V10 will be for the A5 and above i think.

A max of about 400 Bhp from a V8 (maybe an increase in bore size..but probably not) seems are more likely estimate and should have greater effect since the B8 will hopefully be using more weight saving materials.

Taran :s4addict: :rs4addict

[Parikh1234]

that doesnt make sense. There is no way audi would trump the rs4 only a year out of production. I call BS on this one:)

[Payne]

Yep, I agree Bs for me.



an ultra-quick RS4 (550bhp) could follow.

Can you imagine what would the huge 5.5l V10 do to the weight distribution?:nono:

And as well as said, Why produce new Rs4 two years after the b7..

Bullshit:bye2:



Andrew

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by tazsura
Yeh, I agree with AndyBG, 440BHP is too big a jump in power for one generation change and i can't see Audi sticking the V10 in the A4. I think there is a limit to the number of cyclinders a car the size of the A4 should have. I think 8 is probably the max! The V10 will be for the A5 and above i think.

A max of about 400 Bhp from a V8 (maybe an increase in bore size..but probably not) seems are more likely estimate and should have greater effect since the B8 will hopefully be using more weight saving materials.

Taran :s4addict: :rs4addict

B5 S4 had 265hp the B6/7 has 344hp an increase of approx 30%

B7 s4 with 344hp to B8 with 440hp, an increase of approx 28%, sounds ok to me.

[BigRick]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
B5 S4 had 265hp the B6/7 has 344hp an increase of approx 30%

B7 s4 with 344hp to B8 with 440hp, an increase of approx 28%, sounds ok to me.

In percentage it's almost the same. But in absolute values you get around 80hp on the first one and than almost 100hp. Which is quite a leap!

the next step would be 130hp more (using the same figure) that's 570hp in a S4. :wo:

[SteveLRS4]

There is a reasonable chance of a Mercedes C63 with roughly 500 hp so a 540 hp RS4 may be a possibility. In 2008, unlikely.

[eazy]

I also think that it's BS.

The competitor of the RS4 is the M3, as all of you know. So, why should Audi build an B8 S4 with 440 hp against an M3 with about 420hp? What competitor would the B8 RS4 have then? That Mercedes C63?
Not really. They're aiming at BMW.

"If" they want to build an better RS4 version, they should lighten it by 200 or 300 kg. That would be nice.
But 550hp in an A4? Come on guys. Do we have April 1st?
:vhmmm:

Just my 2 cents


greetings

eazy

[India Whiskey Charlie]

I'd be happy with an aluminum bodied 3500 lb 450 HP RS4... :)

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by eazy
I also think that it's BS.

The competitor of the RS4 is the M3, as all of you know. So, why should Audi build an B8 S4 with 440 hp against an M3 with about 420hp? What competitor would the B8 RS4 have then? That Mercedes C63?
Not really. They're aiming at BMW.

"If" they want to build an better RS4 version, they should lighten it by 200 or 300 kg. That would be nice.
But 550hp in an A4? Come on guys. Do we have April 1st?
:vhmmm:

Just my 2 cents


greetings

eazy

I agree with the weight saving, but you will remember that all RS model based on the A4 have always had a healthy gap in power between them and the M3. The current RS4 has 420hp and the next M3 with 415hp possibly, not much of a gap there. Now letting talk about the S4 which currently as the same power as the M3 so one should reckon on the next one will be at least matching it again. I think at best the next S4 will be still a little heavier than the next M3, so anything less than 420hp wouldn't do and a 25+ increase in torque.

Will they use the current RS4 engine for the next S4? I doubt it, the S4 has always been a luxury/sports saloon not a hardcore sports saloon so the hi-reving RS engine wouldn't suit it's character.

I think the V10 is in current form too heavy and big, suits the A6/8 but not the A4 sized cars. I believe they will either enlarge the V8, possibly to 4.6L to give it the power and torque required, or use a 3.6L with twin-turbos for the more lazy character of the S4.

Me, I would like to see the turbos return.:thumb:

[ghostsnake]

That wont happen for a LONG time as the new S8 is coming and the S6 is just coming know. But hey we can all have orders on the next RS4.

[Z07]

If the S4 will have 550hp, how much will a Gallardo have? 700?

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by BigRick
In percentage it's almost the same. But in absolute values you get around 80hp on the first one and than almost 100hp. Which is quite a leap!

the next step would be 130hp more (using the same figure) that's 570hp in a S4. :wo:

Yep, I agree the chances of a S4 with 570hp would be slim. But on the other hand, that would be the B9 S4 which wouldn't be out until 2014. By that time cars might have a Hyperdrive like the Enterprise in Startrek.

[chewym]

Here is what I think is possible for the next generation S/RS models for the B8. The top hp for the RS4 will be detirmined by the C63, if it comes with the 500 hp version, Audi will probably have to drop the V-10 in the next generation RS4. If the C63 only has 465 hp like some have said, a V-8 might do, but the V-10 is still a posibility. Also the next generation CTS-V could get the current Corvette Z06 505 hp engine. In the end, the RS4 will proably come out after the other players, so Audi will hold the advantage as it will know exactly how much hp the RS will require to be the top dog. As for the S4, I think that it will have at least 380 hp from a version of the 4.2 liter FSI engine with RPM between the Q7 version and the RS4 version. It of course will be somewhat slower than the next gen M3, but the S Audis have always been slightly under the M series in sheer performance. The S will also compete with the Lexus Is500 that should have about 350-400 hp, keep in mind that the current IS 300 is just as fast as the current S4, with an automatic no less. Right now I don't think that the next S4 will have more than 400 hp. However, this might change if Audi puts its "Valvetronic" system to use, the Roadjet concept car had 300 hp out of the 3.2 liter V-6 with RPM no higher than the regular standard FSI engine. This means that the 4.2 V-8 can make 400 hp in the "Valvetronic" state of tune without resorting to the high RPM of the current RS4.

[clam]

I had the same thought as you, chewym, but I restrained from posting b/c I tend to get rather long winded.

This is from the Roadjet press release...


Drivetrain

Typically for an Audi study, the Roadjet Concept too is powered by an engine that heralds the shape of things to come with its innovative technology. This applies in equal measure to the 300 bhp evolutionary version of the 3.2 six-cylinder FSI engine and the sporty Direct Shift Gearbox in conjunction with quattro permanent four-wheel drive.


The 3.2 FSI V6 with Audi valvelift system
The 3.2 V6 FSI – which features as a basic engine with an output of 255 bhp in the Audi A8, A6 and A4 – displays all the characteristics of an ultramodern petrol engine: FSI petrol direct injection with demand-controlled fuel supply, four valves per cylinder and highly effective exhaust emission control.

FSI engines develop superior power and dynamism to conventional units with indirect manifold injection – and they do so with a very high stand_ard of fuel economy. With this remarkable achievement, Audi is opening up a new dimension in the efficiency of standard petrol engines, demonstrating once again the brand’s proverbial “Vorsprung durch Technik”.


The FSI petrol direct injection system confirmed its unique potential in what must be the most challenging endurance test in the world: a power unit with FSI direct injection drove the Audi R8 to victory on four occasions in the Le Mans 24 Hours.

The evolutionary version that powers the Roadjet Concept includes two technologies that double the specific advantage of FSI technology. Because with a fixed intake manifold together with integral vacuum reservoir – as opposed to the variable intake manifold of the production version – the 3.2 FSI can be configured systematically as a sports engine.

The six-cylinder engine in addition features a new valve control principle by the name of Audi valvelift system. In the form of two-stage cam lift adjustment, it is able to vary the degree of valve opening according to load and engine speeds.

What this means in practice is that in flowing traffic, the engine produces a decidedly smooth, relaxing response to only moderate use of the accelerator pedal, with impressive pulling power in reserve that results in outstandingly low fuel consumption.

But as soon as the driver ups the tempo, the 3.2 engine reveals its qualities as a highly talented athlete. It responds with bite to even minimal movements of the accelerator and moves fleet-footedly right up to the speed dictated by the limiter, which only cuts in at 7,500 rpm. What is particularly remarkable is that the power output rises constantly virtually all the way up to that point.

This V6 engine delivers its maximum output of 220 kW (300 bhp) at 7,000 rpm; its peak torque of 330 Nm is available at 4,500 rpm. The Roadjet Concept 3.2 FSI accelerates to 100 km/h in 6.4 seconds, and its top speed is electronically governed at 250 km/h.

No less astonishing is the average fuel consumption of this evolutionary concept: the Roadjet Concept covers 100 kilometres on just 10.4 litres of Super Plus – despite the Roadjet Concept's higher weight and larger frontal area, this figure is a few tenths of a litre better than its production counterpart in the A4 3.2 quattro, which develops 45 bhp less!

The combination of FSI and Audi valvelift system unquestionably demonstrates how much potential Audi's petrol engines of the future will still be capable of mobilising, with a view to delivering even more driving fun and efficiency. And that future is not far off: the underlying technology is already so mature that it could start finding its way into production in a few months' time.


source (http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060109.005/page/2/country/gcf/lang/eng/audi/audi-roadjet-concept)

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It doesn't explain what the technology exactly is, but I have my suspicions. The first production direct injection engines from Mitsubushi had no throttle body. Instead they relied completely on de injection to regulate the engine. But it proved to be rather rough at low speeds, and there was even an aftermarket throttle body available.

I suspect that Audi has been able to eliminate the side effects of removing the throttle body, using variable valve technology.
So the Roadjet engine doesn't have to suck air through a butterfly valve, and mess around with variable intakes tuned in with variable valve technology to try and get the air moving in a certain way, at certain engine speeds. The variable valves and direct injection can now regulate the engine themselves.
It's even more flow effecient than having open throttle bodies (no butterfly valve in the way of the airflow), without the drawback of a limited powerband.

At least, that's what I suspect.
With this technology it is possible to draw high performance from an engine, but still have it be fuel effecient when you're not using that potential. As the injection is regulating the engine, relaxed performance will be a direct result of less fuel injected. And when you need the power, the engine will release more fuel into the chamber. But only when you need it.

Current engines are regulated by the throttle body, and thus the amount of air that is being drawn inside the engine. Engines need a lot of air mass to be effecient, but do not always need all the energy that is released into the air mass. Current engines have no way of telling whether the vehicle actually needs the amount of fuel it is injecting. It just knows how much air mass there is, and then guesses how much energy in the form of fuel is required. I believe that future Audi engines will be directly controled by the amount of fuel injected, so the engine no longer has to guess.

So when you're only using 100Nm cruising on the highway (friction losses like aerodynamic drag or mechnical friction/inertia), the engine will only develop 100Nm. And it'll have the fuel consumption of an engine with 100Nm. But when you accelerate, and you require 300Nm, then more fuel will be injected, and the engine will suddenly turn into a 300Nm engine. A current engine will generate 300Nm all the time, and release the amount of fuel needed for that, even when you are just using the 100Nm.

This would be like the CVT transmission where the input of your right foot no longer regulates the rpms via the air intake. With the CVT your pedal regulates the cars speed. With this new technology, it will regulate the amount of fuel injected.

[clam]

My suspicions is confirmed by this photo. There does not appear to be a throttle body. The intake is practically straight through.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by chewym
Here is what I think is possible for the next generation S/RS models for the B8. The top hp for the RS4 will be detirmined by the C63, if it comes with the 500 hp version, Audi will probably have to drop the V-10 in the next generation RS4. If the C63 only has 465 hp like some have said, a V-8 might do, but the V-10 is still a posibility. Also the next generation CTS-V could get the current Corvette Z06 505 hp engine. In the end, the RS4 will proably come out after the other players, so Audi will hold the advantage as it will know exactly how much hp the RS will require to be the top dog. As for the S4, I think that it will have at least 380 hp from a version of the 4.2 liter FSI engine with RPM between the Q7 version and the RS4 version. It of course will be somewhat slower than the next gen M3, but the S Audis have always been slightly under the M series in sheer performance. The S will also compete with the Lexus Is500 that should have about 350-400 hp, keep in mind that the current IS 300 is just as fast as the current S4, with an automatic no less. Right now I don't think that the next S4 will have more than 400 hp. However, this might change if Audi puts its "Valvetronic" system to use, the Roadjet concept car had 300 hp out of the 3.2 liter V-6 with RPM no higher than the regular standard FSI engine. This means that the 4.2 V-8 can make 400 hp in the "Valvetronic" state of tune without resorting to the high RPM of the current RS4.

Ther is no doubt that the next S4 will nearly match the M3 power if not it's outright performance. Remember the M3 will always be lighter than the S4, my only concern is up to now, the S4 have been able to played the card of extra torque, the next M3 will be very close to matching the current S4, so the next one will have to improve this by quite a bit. I reckon we will see the V10 in there instead of the V8 or possibly a 3.2-3.6 Turbo unit.

As for the RS4, this will depend on what the next RS6 will have.

[chewym]

I am not sure that the Roadjet engine is exactly like you say it is. What you have described is basically a diesel engine. Maybe I didn't understand it completely. Nevertheless, the Roadjet engine is extremely interesting. The most interesting part of the press release is that it says the technology is only "a couple of months away" I think that the Roadjet engine will be available on the A5 whenever it comes out. The V8 version should have around 400 hp @7,000 RPM, the current 4.2 FSI has 350 @6,800. I think that this will be the ideal engine for the next S4.

[chewym]

Update, the first Valvelift Audi engines will debut in October.

http://www.eurocarblog.com/post/404/new-engines-from-audi

Now, I think that the next S4 will definately have a Valvelift engine.

[clam]

It would indeed resemble a diesel engine, with the exception that it's not self combusting. The similar feature is controling the engine directly with the amount of fuel injected. So not being left to the mercy of the airflow, that is effected by a large number of factors, making it hard to create the most effecient conditions. It would for instance eliminate the need for a variable intake manifolds, which are a feable attempt at controling the airflow.

BMW has a similar throttle-less system that also has a special valve system to contole the air, Valvetronic. It eleminates the pumping loss caused by the butterfly valve, and increases effeciency by 10%. In this case, the engine is still controled by air flow, via the valves (I suspect). The engine speed is limited to 6.000rpm.

The Audi Roadjet engine produces usable power up to 7.000rpm. Perhaps due to the fact that Audi will be using the fuel injection to controle the engine, and not the airflow. The torque curve does show the roadjet engine loose effeciency at 6000rpm, but can still offer acceleration after that point.

A side effect of eliminated the throttle is that you'll no longer be able to brake on the engine, as engine braking is a result of the vacuum caused by the throttle valve. The fact that you can use the butterfly valve as a brake shows how much drag it creates.

[Leadfoot]

Clam,

Two questions. Firstly, is this technology compatible with turbos etc. and secondly will these engines become available in the TT or only the A4 type format chassis.

I reckoned it was only a matter of time before diesel and petrol engine technology combined.

I see some reckon that the next S4 will use this technology, but will it be v8 or v10, that the question. To me it doesn't matter, get the weight balance and overall weight right and the amount of power shouldn't matter as much. BMW has always offered less power than the rival AMG or RS models and are still regarded as the driver's choice, why other than the fact that they have got the other two points sorted.

No, for me the perfect Audi S4 will have a 53/47% weight balance, 1500Kgs maximum weight and power of 400hp and torque of 370ft/lb. Oh yes and delimit to speed. The quattro system will also have the 40/60 split but be able to move all the power to either axle.

P.S. So if anyone from Audi are listening, please produce this car for my next car change in 2009. OK :thumb:

[clam]

The technology is compatible with turbos. In fact, next to a 2.8l V6 330Nm/300hp V6, a 1.8l TFSI will be one of the 2 engines that Audi will feature at a technology event in octobre. source (http://www.eurocarblog.com/post/404/new-engines-from-audi) (chewym's post)

The 2.0TFSI will be getting more power (240-270), and the new 1.8TFSI will fill the gap (which kind of answers your second question).

There's no reason why it shouldn't work on the transverse platforms. And it shouldn't take as long as DSG to incorporate all the different layouts, b/c the technology is basically just a different head and intake. Expect its incubation time to be that of the FSI technology. So over the course of a generation.

I don't know if it'll work on the VR6, that is already cramped for space. The 24v VR6 head uses rockers that might not be compatible with 'ValveLift'. Engines with the same valve system are the W12 and the W16.

The technology does limit the engine speed, but can make up for that with torque and gearing, so the 'acceleration-range' is unchanged. Still, I wonder if the technology might be passed over for this reason, in some situations.

Cost is another thing that could be an issue, but since the 1.8TFSI is being placed below the 2.0TFSI, it don't think it will be an issue.

Combined with the new variable turbos (if Porsche feels like sharing), and twin charging, we're looking at some very exciting times in engine technology.

[chewym]

Here is my take on the Valvelift (Roadjet) engine. There are two parts

The evolutionary version that powers the Roadjet Concept includes two technologies that double the specific advantage of FSI technology. Because with a fixed intake manifold together with integral vacuum reservoir – as opposed to the variable intake manifold of the production version – the 3.2 FSI can be configured systematically as a sports engine.

I don't really understand this part. But the intake does look different on the Roadjet engine than on regular Audi V series engines.

Here is the second part.

The six-cylinder engine in addition features a new valve control principle by the name of Audi valvelift system. In the form of two-stage cam lift adjustment, it is able to vary the degree of valve opening according to load and engine speeds.

This just means that Audi will use more advanced valve timing like on Hondas and Toyotas.

If the 2.8 Valvelift engine makes the same hp per liter as the Roadjet engine does, it should make about 270 hp. I guess we will have to wait to see how great the Valvelift engines will be.

[clam]

The first quote says it has a fixed intake manifold, instead of a variable one. It's a straight through intake. That means you only have one setup for the whole rpm range. It makes the intake faster, but b/c of an aerodynamic pulse, it results in a louzy low end torque, as the ideal conditions only occur at higher rpms.
Unless off course, you have another way of controling the conditions. Like continously variable valve lift. It not only makes variable intakes obsolete, it also makes the throttle obsolete. The throttle controles the amount of air, while a variable intake controles the speed of the air. A continuously variable valve lift can do both, and in combination with direct injection the engine can be directly controled by how much load is required. Not indirectly by the amount of air that is allowed to pass through, though off course the two are related.

A 'integral vacuum reservoir' is something I know from train locomotives, where it serves as an air brake. As I said earlier, a throttle less car looses this ability to brake on the engine. Perhaps Audi wants to hang on the the feature.

The Honda/Toyota variable lift systems are on/off mechanism, so do not have the ablility to controle the airflow of the engine continuously. The only true variable lift system at this moment is that of BMW, which indeed does eliminate the throttle.
Don't confuse cam-phasing with valve-lifting. Cam phasing has continuous variable systems like Toyota and Porsche. Only BMW was true variable valve lift at this time.