An evaluation of the design of the new TT

[tailpipe]

A recent Autocar magazine article said we should thank Audi for the Porsche Cayman. it would never have been made if Audi hadn't dared to realise the TT. It took Porsche 10 years to produce a rival and by the time it arrived last year, Audi's replacement for the TT was well advanced. Audi should be congratulated for its creativity and vision.

Many people accused the original TT of being a triumph of style over substance. As good as it looked, many people said it just wasn't a great drive. But the Turbo-charged engines were fantastic and at least the spoiler added as an afterthought increased high speed stability. It was a shame they never made it retractable on the Mark I version. But whatever the dynamic limitations of the first TT, you couldn't fault its style. Even today, the cockpit has lost nothing of its orginal impact. The build quality was exceptional. It was a great place in which to enjoy a long journey. There is no doubt in my mind that the TT will become one of the great classics. Emotionally, this is a car that sends an arrow straight to the heart.

Enter the Mark II. Clearly, the new TT is in a different dynamic world to the last one. The latest engines, a retractable spoiler, 2nd generation DSG, Magnetic ride, the latest electronics and so on, do much to correct deficincies of the original making the new one much more capable and safer.

But it seems Audi has thrown out the baby with the bath water. The styling of the new TT has really lost something. It is way too fussy and clumsy IMHO. The original had a marvellously organic shape. It truly looked as if it had been carved from a single wedge of metal. The old one relied on the coherence of the whole shape to achieve visual impact and presence. The new one is a series of awkward lines and angles that interfere with the purity and elegant simplicity of the fundamental shape.

More is definitely less. They should have kept it simple.

The original TT pioneered a new design language for Audi in 1995. The A6, A8, A4 and A2 models that followed were all masterful understatements of elegant simplicity. Then along comes Walter de Silva. He has since tried to fix something that was never broken.

I think the idea of giving Audis a more distinctive grille was a good one. But the process for grafting it to the face of new models was bland and artificial. The A6, A8, A4, A3 and Q7 all have grilles that are way too big. It has been said many times before, but the grilles look just like large gaping holes in the front of the cars - or like a whale with its mouth open sucking in krill.

The next generation of Audi's really need to reign-in the grill so that it doesn't become the focal point of the design. Small would definitely be better.

Going back to the TT, the interior isn't so much of a let down, but evidence of cost cutting is everywhere. It just doesn't seem to have the same quality feel. Where are the metal braces? That said, i have to admit that Audi interiors are still class of the field.

I have two big fears about Audi at the moment.

1. As it strives to increase output and sales volumes, quality will suffer. This has happened to both Mercedes-Benz and to BMW. 2.

2. Audi prices are increasing noticeably versus its German competitors. If quality does take a dive, this will open the door for Lexus, which doesn't need to play a volume game - that's Toyota's job.

Audi is no longer a challenger brand like it used to be. It has arrived. The battle must be to sustain performance. I think the new TT is full of compromises made for the sake of strategic targets.

Audi must continue to put the customer first. That means maintaining product integrity. I have very high hopes about the new A4. Sadly, I am starting to think that these will not be realised, because profits seem to have become more important than dynamic purity and beautiful styling. I sincerely hope Audi proves me wrong.

[Leadfoot]

I understand what you are saying, but best will in the world, the old one wouldn't have last another 8 years and the new does look like it has evolved out of the last one, inside and out.

The new A2 looks interesting, more like the styling of the old one.

[audi713]

lay off the cheese....the new body looks good!!!

[audi713]

lay off the cheese....the new body looks good!!!

[AU-297]

A recent Autocar magazine article said we should thank Audi for the Porsche Cayman. it would never have been made if Audi hadn't dared to realise the TT. It took Porsche 10 years to produce a rival and by the time it arrived last year, Audi's replacement for the TT was well advanced. Audi should be congratulated for its creativity and vision.

Many people accused the original TT of being a triumph of style over substance. As good as it looked, many people said it just wasn't a great drive. But the Turbo-charged engines were fantastic and at least the spoiler added as an afterthought increased high speed stability. It was a shame they never made it retractable on the Mark I version. But whatever the dynamic limitations of the first TT, you couldn't fault its style. Even today, the cockpit has lost nothing of its orginal impact. The build quality was exceptional. It was a great place in which to enjoy a long journey. There is no doubt in my mind that the TT will become one of the great classics. Emotionally, this is a car that sends an arrow straight to the heart.

Enter the Mark II. Clearly, the new TT is in a different dynamic world to the last one. The latest engines, a retractable spoiler, 2nd generation DSG, Magnetic ride, the latest electronics and so on, do much to correct deficincies of the original making the new one much more capable and safer.

But it seems Audi has thrown out the baby with the bath water. The styling of the new TT has really lost something. It is way too fussy and clumsy IMHO. The original had a marvellously organic shape. It truly looked as if it had been carved from a single wedge of metal. The old one relied on the coherence of the whole shape to achieve visual impact and presence. The new one is a series of awkward lines and angles that interfere with the purity and elegant simplicity of the fundamental shape.

More is definitely less. They should have kept it simple.

The original TT pioneered a new design language for Audi in 1995. The A6, A8, A4 and A2 models that followed were all masterful understatements of elegant simplicity. Then along comes Walter de Silva. He has since tried to fix something that was never broken.

I think the idea of giving Audis a more distinctive grille was a good one. But the process for grafting it to the face of new models was bland and artificial. The A6, A8, A4, A3 and Q7 all have grilles that are way too big. It has been said many times before, but the grilles look just like large gaping holes in the front of the cars - or like a whale with its mouth open sucking in krill.

The next generation of Audi's really need to reign-in the grill so that it doesn't become the focal point of the design. Small would definitely be better.

Going back to the TT, the interior isn't so much of a let down, but evidence of cost cutting is everywhere. It just doesn't seem to have the same quality feel. Where are the metal braces? That said, i have to admit that Audi interiors are still class of the field.

I have two big fears about Audi at the moment.

1. As it strives to increase output and sales volumes, quality will suffer. This has happened to both Mercedes-Benz and to BMW. 2.

2. Audi prices are increasing noticeably versus its German competitors. If quality does take a dive, this will open the door for Lexus, which doesn't need to play a volume game - that's Toyota's job.

Audi is no longer a challenger brand like it used to be. It has arrived. The battle must be to sustain performance. I think the new TT is full of compromises made for the sake of strategic targets.

Audi must continue to put the customer first. That means maintaining product integrity. I have very high hopes about the new A4. Sadly, I am starting to think that these will not be realised, because profits seem to have become more important than dynamic purity and beautiful styling. I sincerely hope Audi proves me wrong.


I actually agree... but unfortunately that is how business goes.

[RacerBice]

Originally posted by tailpipe
The original had a marvellously organic shape. It truly looked as if it had been carved from a single wedge of metal. The old one relied on the coherence of the whole shape to achieve visual impact and presence.

Man, you simply MUST be joking?! The old TT is/was BUTT UGLY, and a car I wouldn't want even if thrown at me. And in fact, not a single modification Audi ever introduced made it even remotely look like a sports car. :doh:

Not that the new one is exceptional either, but at least the TT now no longer looks like a Beetle.


RB

[tailpipe]

RB,

I am sure you didn't mean to make yourself look an idiot, but your comments are foolish. Ask anyone who know about design in any country - and I don't just mean car design - I mean designers across all design and architectural disciplines, ask style gurus, the buying public, and the motoring press and I think you'll find your opinion of the orginal TT's shape is shared by no one. It is widely acknowldged by the world as being a classic piece of design, both in and out. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but sadly it doesn't allow you to totally ignore the consensus of informed Audi enthusaists who happen to like it.

So to suggest that i must be joking makes you come across as a school boy of 13 or so. if you are young. here's a proverb: it is better to keep your mouth closed and appear a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. I think it applies to forum posts.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by RacerBice
Man, you simply MUST be joking?! The old TT is/was BUTT UGLY, and a car I wouldn't want even if thrown at me. And in fact, not a single modification Audi ever introduced made it even remotely look like a sports car. :doh:

Not that the new one is exceptional either, but at least the TT now no longer looks like a Beetle.


RB

I was stopped by the Police, who thought I was driving a 911:vhmmm:, so it's not that bad in the looks department. As the years when on in the UK, they sold more each year.

For me the old one looked best with the old RS4 alloys and in either Metallic Blue or Black. It's still one of the best looking small sportscar around.

[eazy]

I also think that it was a style-icon.

The only thing that i don't like on the TT are his headlamps with that cheap plastic inside of it.

The rest looks quite good :)


greetings

eazy

[Leadfoot]

Has anyone notice how the headlights on the new TT look like the one on the Ford Focus.:vhmmm:

[RacerBice]

QUOTE]Originally posted by tailpipe
RB, I am sure you didn't mean to make yourself look an idiot....... [/QUOTE]

Waitwaitwaitwait.... So what you're saying is that although I may not have meant to make it readily apparent myself, I am in fact an idiot....? That's very kind of you.... And rich, too, coming from someone who then goes on to accusing ME of being 13?!

Furthermore, arguments like "everyone else think it's great" don't impress me at all. THAT, if anything, is a 13 year old's argument. I'm sure you'll find a lot of car designers, motor journalists, "style gurus" and other royalties you consider more important than myself who, just like me, do not agree that the TT looks dynamic. 'Cause you see, that's the Mk1's problem. It comes across as having been designed with a view primarily to be original. I.e, design as an end in itself. And I doubt very much that the TT is widely acknowledged amongst designers as a "classic design", at least until you have explained what you mean by "classic".

And AGAIN; the TT Mk1 design impression is very similar to that of the Beetle, which is apparent to anyone with any kind of eyesight (aided or not). So much for "the TT's design is shared by no one".

You are of course free to love the TT as much as you like and say it, just as I am free to express an opposite view. But if you call me an idiot again, I won't pay any attention to you or anything you say in the future ever again. That may suit you just fine, but I think RS6 want people to communicate on this forum rather than ignore each other. Or insult each other, for that matter.....

:cool2:

[Erik]

...Keep it cool!

[Leadfoot]

RacerBice,

I agree, that the choice of words that were used was not in good taste. We can all have our opinions, you don't like the first TT, fair enough, I brought one so I did.

With regards to the design, it is a classic and was praised by about every car designer at it's launch. It's sales have increased year on year, so the design has stood the test of time, something very few can claim.

I might be wrong but I think at the start it received a design award, against other objects (not cars).

Tailpipe's words were not from all of us. But he is right about what he said about the TT, in every ways.

[RacerBice]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Tailpipe's words were not from all of us. But he is right about what he said about the TT, in every ways.

OK, Leadfoot, thanks for the reassurance. And you and Tailpipe may well be right about public acknowledgements. That doesn't make the lines flow, though, nor give the car the right aggressiveness in appearance. Hell, even the RS4 looks twice as dynamic, and that's a 4-door saloon!

By the way, I think the MkI's improved sales had much to do also with its value for money rising considerably towards the end, and with a general increase in demand for this type of car.

RB

Ps. I note with some satisfaction that no-one has yet dared to argue against my statement about Beetle resemblence..... :trash:

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by RacerBice
OK, Leadfoot, thanks for the reassurance. And you and Tailpipe may well be right about public acknowledgements. That doesn't make the lines flow, though, nor give the car the right aggressiveness in appearance. Hell, even the RS4 looks twice as dynamic, and that's a 4-door saloon!

By the way, I think the MkI's improved sales had much to do also with its value for money rising considerably towards the end, and with a general increase in demand for this type of car.

RB

Ps. I note with some satisfaction that no-one has yet dared to argue against my statement about Beetle resemblence..... :trash:

I agree the that the RS4 looks more aggressive, but you have to remember that it's playing the a different market. Would you say a Boxster or a Cayman looks overly aggressive ..... no, because this market looks for style over aggression. The last model didn't have a hardcore hi-performance model to be given a dynamic look, but the new will and you will see this RS aggression in it's larger wheel arches, deeper spoiler and sills as well as different exhaust systems. Just as there is a difference between a 997 and a Turbo, there will be a difference between a TT and a RS-TT.

I'm sorry to say it, but you are wrong in the value front also. The TT's price was reduced shortly after launch by approx £3K as was the Boxster and all other sportscar, due to matters in the Gulf. The reason the TT increased it's sales was down to the fact that you would have had to pay a lot more than the asking price of a TT for a car any better, the 3series coupe was more practical but didn't have the looks, Alfa had the GTV and the less said the better and the Z3 or SLK MK1 wasn't really any better rivals than the Alfa. My point is that Audi didn't offer free extras with the TT over the years, it's just there hasn't been any better cars out there at the price. The fact there is so many newer rivals is more amazing that the TT sales have increased year on year.

I will say you are right that side on the Bettle and the TT have a similar profile in the same way as the 5 series touring and the X5 look the same side on. There is no way you will ever mistake them for what they are.

I hope I'm not being to blunt, but the TT was as much a saviour for Audi in a design way as the Boxster was for Porsche in a financial way.

[audi713]

Man, you simply MUST be joking?! The old TT is/was BUTT UGLY, and a car I wouldn't want even if thrown at me I hear that....the old body looked like the retarted kid in the family

[RacerBice]

Leadie,

I'm really not in a position to comment on the old TT's place in the UK market, but actually I only meant to say that perhaps design is not the only explanation to the TT's success. And I do not in any way deny that the TT was/is successful. It's just that it's completely beyond me how anyone could want that car (and I could write an entire essay here about mistakes in the old TT design). It's by far the ugliest one from Ingolstadt since I can't even remember when. But I guess my taste isn't as good as most people's. I mean, if my preferences were anything to go by, no-one would buy a new beemer eiher.....

Perhaps you said it best yourself; it's not about the TT being splendid so much as the competiton failing even more miserably....?

Come to think of it, although I prefer the coupe concept before the limo one, I would actually prefer a 5-series beemer over the old TT. And I normally say that I would rather be shot dead than spotted in any of the god-awful banglemobiles....
:eek:

By the way, I maintain that looking only at number of cars sold is not relevant, you have to look at the development of the model's market share in the segment.... Perhaps Mk1 still comes out on the plus side....?

[Leadfoot]

I guess my taste isn't as good as most people's

Alas I agree with you on that one.

It's not about the TT being splendid so much as the competiton failing even more miserably

The competition aren't bad. The Z4, the Boxster, the Z350 & the SLK Mk2 are all good cars and better driving cars than the old TT, the success of the old TT is solely down to it's looks. We all know it was no great driver's car, hell the S3 did a much better job of that. People flocked to buy the TT because it was different inside and out compared to all other cars in it's class.

I agree that it's aerodynamics weren't great and this was fixed, the rear spoiler was added only as a visible aid for the public. The ESP and the suspension changes where enough to fix how the TT handled. The TT's looks are amazing when you think what it is based on.

I for one like the look of the 5series, it's the best looking BMW to date.

I know this is just differences of opinion. I only hope that the new one changes your view on the TT, because I reckon they are on to a winner.

[tailpipe]

RacerBice,

I would never have bought the old TT either. I looked at it very seriously. But like you I found the design compromised in many ways. For me, however, the reason not to buy one wasn't its looks, but its dynamic deficiencies. The first cars released were almost dangerous to drive, due to the lack of rear downforce at speed. I drove both versions 180 and 225 and found the car was not as planted as it should have been. It was a triumph of styling over substance. So instead I bought an E46 BMW M3.

You are entiled to your opinion that the car is ugly, but the assembled list of positive reviews would say argue in favour of the cars looks not against it. When you slam a car's looks - which you should feel free to do - you must recognise what the market is saying about it as a reference point. Certainly, within the design community which I happen to be a member of, the car was widely praised for its looks. It was described as a modern Bauhaus interpretation. I think that is fair.

Objectively judging the TT by the mass of positive comments versus relatively few negative reviews - in fact, i can't remember seeing anyone major review that said the first generation TT was ugly - the design must surely be a success compared to the slew of criticism fired at BMW.

I think there are many people who think the new TT is as stunning as the original. For me, the elegant simplicity of the original has been lost. In trying to graft a new house style onto a classic, i think it looks like a dog's dinner.

Dynamically, of course it is much better, but there is still no escaping from the fact that a TT is merely a Golf in a tuxedo.

For all these reasons, there is no substitute for the raw talent of the latest RS4.

[RacerBice]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
I guess my taste isn't as good as most people's

Alas I agree with you on that one.



Touché! Even though I handed it to you on a silver plate... :asian:

As for the new TT, I am eagerly awaiting an opportunity to see it in real life. Pictures have not overly impressed, since the basic problem with the old TT has survived (it even LOOKS front heavy....). Still, though, it's a far more genuine car design, where proportions have been better distributed. And the shopped S-TT picture suggests that there is some true potential in the design, whereas with the old TT there is absolutely nothing you can do with it to make it look sportier. And I have seen many people try...

[Leadfoot]

Tailpipe,

I never got to drive an early example of the TT without the spoiler so can't comment on how the handling was. I talked to some experienced drivers who did and their comments were of praise that Audi had designed a car which was very throttle adjustable. Needless to say that high speed was not part of their tests.

I bought the old TT on looks first and the fact it had awd with it's added safety in slippery conditions. I have owned 4 Audi all increasing in performance, from the old 80 to the A3 1.8T to the TT225 Coupe ending up with the S4v8. Out of all of these cars, it's the TT which I enjoyed the most. I think that was down to the fact it's prettiest Audi and inside it was one of the few cars which made you feel special, a bit like the old Lotus Elan with it's lot of dials. You always looked back at it every time you walked away from it.

You comments on the new nose making the front of the car look like a dog's dinner. I will hold judgement until I see it in the fresh. I personally think that what Audi have done with the new TT is a bigger achievement from Audi than what was done on the RS4. Lots of people have praised the Quattro system and agreed it's qualities aid it's handling more so than the Haldex system because it's already giving 60% to the rear wheels, but I believe the fact that the new TT is mostly fwd means it's handling has to be even better at containing under-steer and with most of the power going through the front wheels the front suspension set-up has to be even better to help with the steering feel. I know how the RS4 handles and look forward to see how the TT compares.

I love the RS4 but will never own one because having owned a S4, I kind of feel been there, done that. Yes it goes like stink and it's handling is way better than my S4, but the overall ownership is kind of the same, same basic interior. This is why I have gone for the TT again, might not go as well but will match it dynamically and be a lot more special to be in. This is something no saloon can offer, Audi understand better than most that the coupes based on other car have to be different (special) not only on the outside but also on the inside. This is something BMW, Ford, Opal and other haven't done with there offerings. And this is why the TT has been so popular.

Roll on the new S/RS5, until then the TT will have to do.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by RacerBice
Touché! Even though I handed it to you on a silver plate... :asian:

As for the new TT, I am eagerly awaiting an opportunity to see it in real life. Pictures have not overly impressed, since the basic problem with the old TT has survived (it even LOOKS front heavy....). Still, though, it's a far more genuine car design, where proportions have been better distributed. And the shopped S-TT picture suggests that there is some true potential in the design, whereas with the old TT there is absolutely nothing you can do with it to make it look sportier. And I have seen many people try...

Not touché, just agreed with you, that's all.

The way in which you feel the design is front heavy, is exactly how I see the 3series saloon and coupe but tail heavy. Audis are a lot nearer in length between front and rear overhangs than any BWM, maybe this is why I like they designs.

I agree that no one could make it look sportier, it didn't need it.

[RacerBice]

Originally posted by tailpipe
Objectively judging the TT by the mass of positive comments versus relatively few negative reviews - in fact, i can't remember seeing anyone major review that said the first generation TT was ugly - the design must surely be a success compared to the slew of criticism fired at BMW.


At the risk of being criticised for trying to hand you your own medicin; Isn't it a well-known fact that people in general have bad taste....?

:trash:

[RacerBice]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
The way in which you feel the design is front heavy, is exactly how I see the 3series saloon and coupe but tail heavy. Audis are a lot nearer in length between front and rear overhangs than any BWM, maybe this is why I like they designs.

I'm a 100 per cent with you on that one. In my view, it's the too short "over-hang" between the front bumper and the front wheel(what's the English word for it....?) together with long bonnets that ruin the BMW designs in that aspect... But it's kind of the other way around with the old TT. Short bonnet with large "over-hang" in front and not so large in the rear. Weird.... :confused:

[Leadfoot]

I don't think you can call car designers & car magazine reviewers as the general public. It's these people which praised the TT and fired the criticism at the Bangle designed BMWs. I personally rate the 5 series Saloon and Z4 Coupe as his best. But ultimately it's the public which decide that design is a winner and which the loser by voting with that wallet.

With the last TT, it was an absolute winner.:bye2: