AutoBild: S6 > M5 [Archive] - RS6.com | International Community

clam

June 5th, 2006, 13:28

They didn't neuter it. That was my point in the previous discussion. The engine has been tuned for its purpose. It's doesn't boast as much horsepower, but horsepower is a pretty useless number. Nothing to boast about. Horsepower is a calculation done with torque at one particular engine speed, in an attempt to compare it to a horse. (I'm not kidding) And the M5 has a high number at one particular engine speed. The thing is, when it comes to Torque, the actual force that moves the car, the S6 has a higher number at any engine speed. In 'horses' its number is lower, in real terms the 5.2 V10 is a lot more suited for a luxury car. While the M5 needs 7gears to stay in the sweet spot. And a 400hp button for normal use, b/c they know that's not an engine for a luxury cruiser.

The Gallardo spec V10 would make the S6 worse.

clam

June 5th, 2006, 13:31

The Torque curve of the M5 is like the reverse of the S6, and not as flat. The numbers also aren't as big.

B/c the horsepowers calculation favours rpms (b/c rpms are expressed in thousands), the calculation fot he M5 will be higher. But it's obvious that the S6 has a better curve.

Aronis

June 5th, 2006, 13:59

Horse power is calculated from measured torque using this formula:

Hp = Torque x RPM/5252.

Yes, I understand the HP numbers are not key.

But the Neutering was comparied to the SAME ENGINE in the S8...different intake and exhaust to let the S8 owner BRAG that they have 15 more HP than the S6 guy....this is stupid, make the engines THE SAME...the S8 guy can brag about his leg room.....

Yes, those HIGH reving engines with HIGH HP numbers have LOW torque, like the S2000 engine....you have to flog it to get any performance, thus the JOY of a 4.2 liter V8 with Twin Turbos...torque from end to end LOL.

Mike

clam

June 5th, 2006, 14:56

You see in the formula that a static rpm plays a big role, while in real life rpm is not static, and it's role in performance is a function of the gear ratios. So horsepowers mean nothing. The spec that the S8 boasts 30horses more that the S6 means nothing.

It's entirely possible that the engine is in fact the same, and that they lied on paper to protect the status of the S8. The S8's official horsepower is measured @ 7000rpm, while that of the S6 is measured @ 6800rpm. While the Torque numbers are the same.

450Nm (from graph)* 200rpm /5252 = 17 horsepowers

Well waddayaknow ... that's the difference between them. The only difference between the S6 and the S8 is that last bit of rpm, that noone uses anyway b/c it's outside the powerband.
It is in fact the exact same engine, but to make the more expensive car look better, they calculated the horse-capacity at a slightly different rpm.

You should never look at the horsepowers, but look at the torque.

clam

June 5th, 2006, 15:04

double post

Benman

June 5th, 2006, 15:37

Originally posted by clam

It's entirely possible that the engine is in fact the same, and that they lied on paper to protect the status of the S8. The S8's official horsepower is measured @ 7000rpm, while that of the S6 is measured @ 6800rpm. While the Torque numbers are the same.

450Nm (from graph)* 200rpm /5252 = 17 horsepowers

Well waddayaknow ... that's the difference between them.

Good point.

So... an S6 beats an M5? Well, everything is subjective I guess, but what we are supposed to gather from this test is that the S6 is the "real world" winner? Quite possible, but I'd bet the M5 will school it on the track.;)

Ben:addict:

clam

June 5th, 2006, 15:53

Yeah, the M5 has a 200kg advantage, and probably a faster shifting gearbox.
The article says the S6 definitely is slower, but it can keep up on a course pretty good thanks to its torque and traction. They praise it for that, seeing as its 200kg heavier. But that's in 507hp mode. In 400hp mode, which I think will be standard setting after a few trips to the gas station, the S6 will be harder to keep away.

I predicted the S6 would be as fast or faster, but I didn't know the weight difference is a whopping 200kilograms.

The M5 is fastest track day car of the two, but many things will beat the M5 on the track. The S6 is the best package if you take everything into account.

Speedou

June 5th, 2006, 18:18

Heh, you really do have big audi-glasses, but however, I see your point, but totally disagree :cool2:

I'm just pointing that not all of us think that way. I love high reving engines. Even an M3 have enough torgue for little faster accerelations at low rpm. To me an S6 is in totally different category and I wouldn't even put those against each other. The S6 is luxury autobahn cruiser and the M5 is more race and bigger compromise between luxury and sportcar.

QuattroFun

June 5th, 2006, 22:09

High revving engine is great for a tightly stuffed 7-speed box in a relatively light M3 and quite okay for a tightly spaced 6-speed 1735kg RS4 - but less so for a 1855kg M5 and certainly not for a 2020kg S6. 2020kg! Dear lord...

clam

June 5th, 2006, 23:13

We agree then. The M5 tries to be a sportscar. But even the M6 loses out on a 911 Carrera S, with a lot more engine. And what kind of sportscar has a button for less power?
And you're also right that that puts them in a different segment. But they'll get compared anyways. B/c people will be looking at both when they want a fast luxury car. The true rival of a concept like the M5 is the RS4. More sportscar than cruiser.
But as a sportscar it's handicapped by its luxury sedan platform.

It can't be the M3. I'm a huge fan of the E39 M5, but what the hell is this one doing with a high reving engine? Even Porsche doesn't try that. The high rev engine goes in the lightweight GT3, and the Gran Toursimo Turbo gets the low end Torque and 4wd system.
And even BMW knew it, b/c the car has a button to attempt to redeem the engine.

I know what the point is really. If it wasn't for the 200kg, the S6 would beat the M5. Like the heavier, less-hp, more torque S4 beats the M3 around a track. But try explaining the principle of torque when you're boasting about your car down the pub. The M5 has been giving this unsuitable engine, so it can achieve a nonsensicale horsepower number. It's not meant to be practical. Like I said, the button says it all. But hey, they make a lot of money. That's what a company is ment to do? If the people want horsepowas, they'll get horsepowas. I get that. No problem. But it harms its practicality.

And claiming they are both winners in their own league is a political way out. There can be only one. And it's obvious to me, and the journalists of AutoBild, that it is the S6. Not as fast, sure. And you can't boast about torque, b/c that's for trucks. But better on all other counts. Not in the least the price. So peope won't be crying if they get a few seconds slower in the office, in greater comfort with more money in the bank.

If Audi wanted to play the horsepower game, they could've just used the V10 in it's Gallardo spec. Then shorten the gear ratios to compensate for the weight, and then install 7 gears to keep the engine in the sweet spot. And then install a button to bring down the performance b/c seeking out the rpms sucks the fuel out of the tank like a fire hose. And they'd probably impress a lot of people on the internet, and journalists that don't have to pay for, and life with the car. But people will actually be using these as a tool. And tools need to be practical.

You know what they say: Mercedes is old money, BMW is new money, and Audi is smart money.

Leadfoot

June 5th, 2006, 23:56

Clam,

You will not get the two sides to agree. Audi fans love Audis and BMW fans love BMWs, we on this side see the bigger picture practicality, safety on slippery conditions, smoother power delivery, better quality materials and smarter looks. On the other side they see rwd with more entertainment, sportier looks, bigger hp for better acceleration and magazine endorsement as the sportier choice. I believe the power button was put there for reliability, if not why not have 500hp on at start-up and the button to drop the power to 400hp. Will the M3 have something similar?

I has seen every and I mean every UK magazine that choose the BMW over Audi in a roadtest, but pick the Audi as the one they would prefer to own themselves. I know I'll get into deep sh@t with the RS4 owner there, but though I rate the RS4 the best Audi to date I wished they hadn't picked the BMW route of hi-revs to produce it's best car. For me that one part spoils it's victory over the M3. BMW M lovers will say it was the only way they could win, who know, I just hope it's their last hi-reving RS model.

P.S. But I have to admit one HELL of an engine.

IulianUM

June 6th, 2006, 01:21

You know what they say: Mercedes is old money, BMW is new money, and Audi is smart money.

I don´t know about that , but I will use it a lot .Thx.:harass:

Radiation Joe

June 6th, 2006, 14:08

This conversation is ridiculous. From a performance standpoint, non of the performance Audis can hold a candle to the performance versions of the BMWs. Period.
I own a modded e46 M3 that will turn a faster lap time at Watkins Glen with around 350 HP than any RS6. Sorry, but it's the truth. It's lighter (a lot lighter) and doesn't have 400 lbs hanging out past the front axle line. Even bone stock the M3 would win out, just not by a huge margin.
I'm on my 3rd Audi (A4, A4, RS6) and have driven the A3, S4 and A8 extensively. I fully intend to buy an A8 when they get the DSG and direct injection together. BMW's SMG sucks compared to the DSG system. But I will never knock BMW's chassis dynamics. Audi cannot match BMW in this department and never will as long as the engines remain out front of the axle line.
BTW, I haven't driven an e60 M5 yet, but I can't imagine that it could ride worse than my RS-6. At anything above a medium speed bump the compression damping of the DRC goes to infinity and my only compliance comes from the tires. Ouch!
:rs6kiss:

Aronis

June 6th, 2006, 14:47

June 6th, 2006, 14:53

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Radiation Joe
"From a performance standpoint, non of the performance Audis can hold a candle to the performance versions of the BMWs. Period."

Have to agree. I've owned an M3 and a couple of e39 540's with the M-Package suspension, and the handling was fantastic.

I spent significant time driving the e60 M5 and drove the M6 briefly, and if I commuted to work every day on a track, I would have bought one of the them.

I bought the RS6, though, because it is a great compromise - the best out there.

And for validation purposes, every one of my BMW- and Porsche-loving friends who has been in the RS has been blown away.

Leadfoot

June 6th, 2006, 15:01

Originally posted by Radiation Joe
This conversation is ridiculous. From a performance standpoint, non of the performance Audis can hold a candle to the performance versions of the BMWs. Period.
I own a modded e46 M3 that will turn a faster lap time at Watkins Glen with around 350 HP than any RS6. Sorry, but it's the truth. It's lighter (a lot lighter) and doesn't have 400 lbs hanging out past the front axle line. Even bone stock the M3 would win out, just not by a huge margin.
I'm on my 3rd Audi (A4, A4, RS6) and have driven the A3, S4 and A8 extensively. I fully intend to buy an A8 when they get the DSG and direct injection together. BMW's SMG sucks compared to the DSG system. But I will never knock BMW's chassis dynamics. Audi cannot match BMW in this department and never will as long as the engines remain out front of the axle line.
BTW, I haven't driven an e60 M5 yet, but I can't imagine that it could ride worse than my RS-6. At anything above a medium speed bump the compression damping of the DRC goes to infinity and my only compliance comes from the tires. Ouch!
:rs6kiss:

I totally agree, no standard RS6 would work with a modded M3 around a demanding a track as Watkins Glen, it murder on the brakes and the s-bends after the start would be a killer in a nose heavy car like a RS6. But the comparation was not the M3 to a old shape RS6, it was the new S6 versus the M5 both heavy cars not really designed for track work. Both in my opinion are selling to a different market of which the S6 is making a better fist of. S models have always tried to be more luxury with a little bit of sportiness thrown in and up until the RS4 the RS model were the same only a bit quicker.

Having drove a M5 I rate the ride quality no bad at all, my problem with it is the thing is too fast for it's own good, the chassis can't cope with the power, in that you always enter corners way faster than you think b/c of the accelerate. It the weight that's it's problem, like a Audi there's a bit more over the front wheel and this effect the handling. Unlike the Audis it's only got rwd so you have only understeer or oversteer. With Audis you go in slow to a corner like the M5 but with awd full power can be delivered a lot sooner with none wasted in oversteer. I rate the M5 a better all round car in 400hp mode, so I say again why have the 500hp when it a better car without it.

exE46M3

June 6th, 2006, 19:52

Originally posted by Leadfoot
...the thing is too fast for it's own good, the chassis can't cope with the power, in that you always enter corners way faster than you think b/c of the accelerate. It the weight that's it's problem, like a Audi there's a bit more over the front wheel and this effect the handling. Unlike the Audis it's only got rwd so you have only understeer or oversteer. With Audis you go in slow to a corner like the M5 but with awd full power can be delivered a lot sooner with none wasted in oversteer. I rate the M5 a better all round car in 400hp mode, so I say again why have the 500hp when it a better car without it.

Too fast for its own good?!? C'mon, don't you think Motorsport's engineers know a thing or two about building kick a** cars that we do not? I mean, seriously...

Most drivers not being able handle/use 507HP is one thing. The chassis not being able to handle all that power is a completely different story (and one nobody will buy).

I told you this before and I'll say it again because it's true whether you like it or not: Audi uses Quattro to offset shortcomings in driving dynamics. Sure, you can brag about a more relaxed drive all you want, but unless you're planning on racing people in inclement weather (not likely), Quattro (at least in my experience) will do nothing DSC + appropriate rubber won't do. If AWD was all you needed, ESP could be turned off completely.

Anyway, as you noticed, AWD will only make a difference under acceleration. Since you like to talk about real world drivers, tell me something: what will most drivers do when it all goes to sh*t? Hit the breaks, correct? Now, tell me: what difference does AWD make when someone hits the breaks? None, right? What difference does AWD make when someone enters a corner way too fast? None, because the laws of physics still apply.

RWD cars will put power to the ground aided by limited slip differentials and traction control. Don't get too impressed by all the powerslides you see in videos - those are performed by trained professionals who can use oversteer in their favor. Most of us will keep the good ol' defense mechanisms switched on. Some don't even have a choice in the matter because such mechanisms can't be turned off completely.

See, I'm not trying to make you like BMWs or RWD cars. I'm also not disputing the veredict in Autobild. I'm just highlighting some facts. This way we all can learn from each other - lots of people have been on both "sides", and nothing is just bad or just good. :thumb:

Kram

June 6th, 2006, 20:51

Originally posted by Leadfoot

You will not get the two sides to agree. Audi fans love Audis and BMW fans love BMWs, we on this side see the bigger picture practicality, safety on slippery conditions, smoother power delivery, better quality materials and smarter looks. On the other side they see rwd with more entertainment, sportier looks, bigger hp for better acceleration and magazine endorsement as the sportier choice. I believe the power button was put there for reliability, if not why not have 500hp on at start-up and the button to drop the power to 400hp. Will the M3 have something similar?

I has seen every and I mean every UK magazine that choose the BMW over Audi in a roadtest, but pick the Audi as the one they would prefer to own themselves. I know I'll get into deep sh@t with the RS4 owner there, but though I rate the RS4 the best Audi to date I wished they hadn't picked the BMW route of hi-revs to produce it's best car. For me that one part spoils it's victory over the M3. BMW M lovers will say it was the only way they could win, who know, I just hope it's their last hi-reving RS model.

P.S. But I have to admit one HELL of an engine.

Can't agree more with you. :thumb:

What I just can't understand is why all those bimmers are registering here just to try to speak louder. :bye2:

exE46M3

June 6th, 2006, 21:00

Well, well, well... Look who's alive... Mr. "BMW Raper" (whatever "Raper" means)...

Great input! :thumb:

PS: I didn't know BMWs hung out on Internet Forums... :vhmmm:

7:53 RS6

June 6th, 2006, 21:12

Please Leadfoot
One can have one pesonal opinion about whats is to much horse power to a cars acctuall god, and that is ok. But to belive that one ownes pesonal opinion is some kind of wold wide THRUTH is fore sure to take one selvf to serius!. I mean whom are you to say a thing like that?

If you try to see it in one other way, kind of like this, its to much power for you to handel, well that would be a pretty helthy and grown up thing to say. Most peopel driving M5 is no way near that cars real potential, well even if that the case they are intiteld to use the 500ps if they like.
For the record if i may be ironic, why dont you start your new carrer as a chassi enginer at Motorsport division at BMW im sure they are keen on your advice how to help up the shity as you say chassi of M5, you take you self way to serius. Ease up a bit, will you.

I will not even come in to a debate on the S6 vs M5, these talk never lead anywhere, its so personal what you like and enjoy, even it can be fun some time do this talk. But most likely it will end up in flame.
They are bothe nice cars and can easy find new buyers all over the world. And dont take the whiten word to serius, its just a carmag and there ways of seeing it, the next mag see it other way and so on. The same as we all, valu diffrent things and see thing ouer way, and stick to that most likely what ever the next man say.
There are accualy peopel out there that can handel as well as enjoy a RWD car whit 500ps even if it rain, just to point that out as well as there are peopel thet dont. The same goes for S6, just fore it is AWD and ESP, its not the same like you cant mess things up big time.

Oh, by the way new Porsche turbo have a gissmo that will raise the turbo bost over a period of about 10 sekonds to give it some extra kick as speed. Can we still call it a sportscar i guess?

Leadfoot

June 6th, 2006, 21:35

exE46M3

Firstly, motorsport engineers know more than us, yes but marketing men dictate what a finish product will be, M-Sport are no different. The people who buy these cars are normal people and most can't handle it's power and thats a fact, why do you think they build in safety nets like ESP/DSC. After driving the M5 I stand by what I say, on the track it would be a laugh but on the road in 500hp mode it's a handful something the 400hp mode is not and I reckon that is why it's the default mode is on start up, it's easier on the parts and easier on the fuel. Who wants to put the window down to the car you are about to race from the lights and ask them to wait a minute while you set your car in maximum attack mode, what is laugh.:doh:

Secondly you state Audi uses Quattro to offset shortcomings in driving dynamics, quattro is used by Audi because it offers better road manners in all road conditions, period. Ask anyone on this forum which car they could step into for the first time and drive quickest, I bet the most will say Audi over BMW or any rwd car. Yes I agree and have always agreed that in the right hand a rwd car should be quickest, but this is only true in :cool2: prefect conditions.

Thirdly you talk about what normal drivers done when they panic, they brake, correct and that is why Audi behave like a fwd, the nose tucks in to the corner, this is aided by the extra weight at the front, ask anyone what happens when you do this in a 911, then you say oh sh*t b/c the tail is about to overtake you. You say don't get to impress by trained professionals who can use oversteer in their favor. I'm not, I have done enough years in motorsport to know oversteer is only used as a last resort to bring a car back into line, smooth driving wins races b/c when your wheels are spinning you aren't going forward as fast as you could. That is apart from awd which produces maximum forward motion around a corner in four wheel drift, ask any rally driver.

Audi in my opinion produce the best all round everyday car, yes it's a compromise, but so is the face we are born with. If anyone is on this forum they have strong view either for or against Audis, very few see more than one brand in equal light.

Leadfoot

June 6th, 2006, 22:18

Originally posted by 7:53 RS6
Please Leadfoot

For the record if i may be ironic, why dont you start your new carrer as a chassi enginer at Motorsport division at BMW im sure they are keen on your advice how to help up the shity as you say chassi of M5, you take you self way to serius. Ease up a bit, will you.
They are bothe nice cars and can easy find new buyers all over the world. And dont take the whiten word to serius, its just a carmag and there ways of seeing it, the next mag see it other way and so on. The same as we all, valu diffrent things and see thing ouer way, and stick to that most likely what ever the next man say.

7:53 RS6,

You are misunderstanding my meaning that the chassis can't cope with the power. Ofcoarse it can take the power, what I was meaning was on a road you never know what around the next corner and with all 500hp it's so bloody fast and gains speed so easily, you are always entering the corner quicker than you think. And alas the M5 like the S6 is a big heavy car, you can't hide the weight, the only difference between them is the S6 will not get to the speeds that the M5 will and as so won't get into the same difficults.

That is my opinion, you may differ, I have no problem with that. I didn't say anything bad about the car, I stated that I rate the ride quite good, I have also said before that I like the looks.

You don't like what I say, fine by me, but why have personnel digs, like saying I should work for M-sport. I know my limits.

But if M-sport would have me I would love to work for them, I think I could make a difference and hopefully help them make better cars, cars more like Audis.:bye2:

exE46M3

June 6th, 2006, 23:04

Originally posted by Leadfoot
...but marketing men dictate what a finish product will be...
Tell me about it...

Originally posted by Leadfoot
After driving the M5 I stand by what I say, on the track it would be a laugh but on the road in 500hp mode it's a handful something the 400hp mode is not
Ok, let me see if I got that straight... Most people can use 507HP on a track. No issues there. On the streets a mere 400HP prevents them from getting in trouble... Yes, that makes sense.

Originally posted by Leadfoot
...default mode...easier on the fuel.
Now you're talking.

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Who wants to put the window down to the car you are about to race from the lights and ask them to wait a minute while you set your car in maximum attack mode
I didn't know rolling the window down was a pre-req for pressing a button on the console or steering wheel...

In any event, should 507HP be used on the streets or not? I thought all that power was a bit of a handful on the streets...

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Secondly you state Audi uses Quattro to offset shortcomings in driving dynamics, quattro is used by Audi because it offers better road manners in all road conditions, period.
Who's the marketing man now? ;)

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Ask anyone on this forum which car they could step into for the first time and drive quickest, I bet the most will say Audi over BMW or any rwd car.
No need. Been there, done that. :thumb: I'm looking forward to doing it again soon! See how open minded I am? ;)

Originally posted by Leadfoot
...this is aided by the extra weight at the front
Sure understeer can be engineered into any car. But you're starting to sound like one of those marketing men again...

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Audi in my opinion produce the best all round everyday car
That my friend, may very well be the truth. Look at the RS4 B7. Simply amazing! :thumb:

Benman

June 6th, 2006, 23:45

Originally posted by Leadfoot

But if M-sport would have me I would love to work for them, I think I could make a difference and hopefully help them make better cars, cars more like Audis.:bye2:

And by all that is Holy, make them a little less Fugly!!!

Ben:addict:

Aronis

June 6th, 2006, 23:46

Originally posted by Benman
And by all that is Holy, make them a little less Fugly!!!

Ben:addict: Here, Here, I agree.....

Leadfoot

June 6th, 2006, 23:52

Thanks exE46M3 for turning round what was getting a heated debate over nothing really.

We all have opinion and likes, where better to air them than in the company of like-minded car nuts. This forum is the best debated website around with lots of well informed members. I know we all won't agree on everything but that's not the point, the point is each opinion builds up a bigger picture, one which hopefully help someone make up their on mind on what will be their next purchase, be it parts or a complete car.:thumb:

exE46M3

June 7th, 2006, 00:38

No problem Leadfoot. I never intended to start any trouble...

See, these two never had any heated debates in my garage... :thumb:

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j140/exE46M3/M3A4.jpg

Aronis

June 7th, 2006, 00:43

Nice M3....me like.....

Mike

CarbonFibre

June 7th, 2006, 01:45

I'd much rather have a new M5 than a new S6. I'll wait until the next RS6 before I know where I really stand on the issue between the performance cars in this segment.
I'm guessing part of Audi ditching the turbocharged RS cars is because they don't own Cosworth anymore. Porsche did the engine in the RS2, and then Cosworth modified the engines on the RS4 and RS6. There was also the issue of marketing if the RS4 had a turbocharged 6 cylinder while the S4 had a V8 since it would have been tough to fit a turbocharged V8 in there.

Erik

June 7th, 2006, 07:42

7:53 RS6

June 7th, 2006, 09:41

Originally posted by Erik
Well, the RS6 is faster than the M5 E39 on Nürburgring.

Spot on Erik! As well as RS6 its faster on Kliner Hockenheim

:revs:

I take it like a man and dont talk about the E39 was a old car :rolleyes:

Leadfoot

June 7th, 2006, 09:52

Originally posted by CarbonFibre
I'd much rather have a new M5 than a new S6. I'll wait until the next RS6 before I know where I really stand on the issue between the performance cars in this segment.
I'm guessing part of Audi ditching the turbocharged RS cars is because they don't own Cosworth anymore. Porsche did the engine in the RS2, and then Cosworth modified the engines on the RS4 and RS6. There was also the issue of marketing if the RS4 had a turbocharged 6 cylinder while the S4 had a V8 since it would have been tough to fit a turbocharged V8 in there.

The S6 is more luxury than sportscar and that will suit more people, that is why there is more Audi A6s sold worldwide than anyother German car in it's class. The M5 is trying to be a Sportscar/Luxury Car, this is harder to do with more compromises and fewer people will be willing to accept this. The reason why I feel the RS4 is rated so well the down to the suspension system, it's possibly the first performance saloon that has married the two roles so well. If the new RS6 does as good a job, it will be Audi who will be trying to keep uo with demand.

I agree that Audi had a problem with what engine to put into the RS4, the v6 twin turbo would have been the logical choice, but that would have meant the S4 had the bigger engine. I doubt this will happen again, but the choice they ended up using is amazing all the same.

Erik

June 7th, 2006, 15:21

July Automobile M5/S6/E63

"George Kacher ranks M5 behind S6 and names the E63 the winner. SMG was the killer for the M5. Torque, engine sound, transmisson, and acceleration tipped the scales to the E63."

June 7th, 2006, 15:37

Originally posted by Erik
July Automobile M5/S6/E63

"George Kacher ranks M5 behind S6 and names the E63 the winner. SMG was the killer for the M5. Torque, engine sound, transmisson, and acceleration tipped the scales to the E63."

The point about SMG is spot-on. Does it shift faster and more precisely than most drivers could shift a manual? Yes. But BMW simply has not refined SMG to the point where it is enjoyable day in and day out, even the latest iteration in the M5/M6.

Aronis

June 7th, 2006, 18:41

My dad has been enjoying his new M5 for several months now.

At first he had the learning curve of the SMG transmission but now he has become quite proficiant with it and would not go back to a manual! After 3 prior manual M5's that is!

I have not driven it, but I have riden in it, and it is very luxurious! Great seats (air bladders keep you in place and the cooling is VERY NICE). Sterio great, nav too, etc etc. The ride is very comfortable even on rough roads.

So I don't see what would be missing from a Luxury standpoint that the S6 would have over it. I admit I much prefer the interior design of the Audi S6/A6 over the BMW's even with the prior model of both, but I can't say that there is any luxury defficiency that would be marked against the M5 with the only acception being the back seat is a bit less roomy than the Audi (have not been in a New A6 to compair truely, but from prior A6 (2000) vs Prior M5 and current M5.

As far as bad weather is concerned, I drove an M3 for 5 years in the worst NE weather with snow tires and never had a problem accept the day I took my snows off one day too soon LOL. I got the A6 for bigger car with AWD as a bonus, and it turns out the AWD is a great added snow worthiness bonus indeed!

An M5 with Snows that is possible, which is a credit to snow tire design as well as tread compounds and the traction control, etc. I would drive my M5 year round if I had one.

Anyway, great thread.....I like both cars....

Mike

Erik

June 7th, 2006, 18:43

Originally posted by Aronis
I drove an M3 for 5 years in the worst NE weather with snow tires and never had a problem accept the day I took my snows off one day too soon LOL.

:snow: :noshake:

Leadfoot

June 7th, 2006, 19:22

Originally posted by T3
The point about SMG is spot-on. Does it shift faster and more precisely than most drivers could shift a manual? Yes. But BMW simply has not refined SMG to the point where it is enjoyable day in and day out, even the latest iteration in the M5/M6.

It's like the old systems in Ferraris, not refined enough to be considered as an alternative to a proper manual gearbox. Unlike Ferrari, BMW haven't improved the gearbox enough to be considered and by that I mean wouldn't be good enough for a full blooded sportscar never mind a big luxury sports saloon. Aston Martin choose the ZF auto for it's sportscars and it is praised by everyone, a version of this is used in the S6.

I understand why BMW keep using it, there that link between it and a proper manual unlike an auto, but why can Ferrari fix their's and BMW not, who know they should have the technical skills. If I was BMW, I would approach VW for a license to use the DSG, the only gearbox of it's type that really works in both modes. Maybe they may feel it beneath them to use a rival's technology but their customers would love it.

Talking about gearboxs has any of yous heared of a company called TORATRACK. They make the best CVT box in the world, I know BMW is talking to them as well as Ford, it might just be the future.

Aronis

June 7th, 2006, 19:40

Originally posted by Leadfoot
May feel it beneath them to use a rival's technology but their customers would love it.

BMW had no problem licensing the electromagnetic shocks from GM (in Caddy and Corvette, and Porsche also licensed it for the 911 (if I recall correctly))

exE46M3

June 7th, 2006, 19:47

Leadfoot

June 7th, 2006, 19:52

Originally posted by Aronis
BMW had no problem licensing the electromagnetic shocks from GM (in Caddy and Corvette, and Porsche also licensed it for the 911 (if I recall correctly))

Then maybe it's not only us on this website who hate each others brand. Maybe VW won't give it to BMW or BMW won't ask them to use it.

Funnier things have happened.

June 7th, 2006, 20:01

Originally posted by exE46M3
I'll go buy the magazine and read the whole article, but based on your comment, I have to ask: what could be more enjoyable than a sequential gear box? The slush boxes found in the Audi and the Merc? :vhmmm:

I wasn't entirely clear - in the present discussion, I meant "enjoyable" in terms of the daily commuting grind.

The SMG is very enjoyable under the right circumstances. As I noted in an earlier post, if I commuted to work on a track, or on clear roads, I would have bought the M5. It's a riot in traffic-free, distraction-free conditions. The engine and the chassis dynamics are outstanding (particularly for a car that heavy).

And in fact, I'm on a list for the next M3 - but I'll likely use it as a second car, not a daily driver.

The autobox is a compromise - no question. But with the thrust produced by the RS6, it's much less of an issue (for me) than I first expected.

exE46M3

June 7th, 2006, 20:05

Originally posted by Leadfoot
It's like the old systems in Ferraris, not refined enough to be considered as an alternative to a proper manual gearbox.
Manual trannies are not available in any of these cars. So, that's a moot point...

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Unlike Ferrari, BMW haven't improved the gearbox enough to be considered and by that I mean wouldn't be good enough for a full blooded sportscar never mind a big luxury sports saloon.
Don't see CSL owners complaining that much about their SMG-II cars... Sure, some would like to have a proper manual and miss the third pedal dearly, but it's not like the sequential gearbox turned them off.

Go drive an E36 with SMG and then drive the M5 with SMG-III. See if what you said above is really true.

Originally posted by Leadfoot
If I was BMW, I would approach VW for a license to use the DSG, the only gearbox of it's type that really works in both modes.
Why didn't Audi think of that for the S6/S8? :D Are they considering it for the RS6? :vhmmm:

exE46M3

June 7th, 2006, 20:46

Originally posted by T3
...if I commuted to work on a track, or on clear roads, I would have bought the M5.

I see what you're saying, but at least one of the 5 auto programs available in SMG-III has got to be suitable for daily commute, right?

7:53 RS6

June 7th, 2006, 21:31

Accually, i hear many complantis about SMG box in here. How many of you guys that talking down this box accually have driven it? And when i say driven it i dont mean for like a 40min test round.

For me its not logic to talk down a box like SMG of todays versions. For starters, it very superior to beeing abel to drive a M car in a very, very sporty way. There is nothing you cant do in a manuell box that you cant do whit an smg(well exept you could blow the entier engin in a manuell) Well when you are feed up playing Schumacher using hardes gearing mode you just go auto mode. That fore those have not driven CSL but even more so M5/6 it tryley remarkebel how fast and hard it changes if you like it to in hardest mode. I mean its just crazy and the first timers will think they lose the complete rear differential on the ground every time it smashes in the next cog:dance: But no worris it can take the smashing in gears.
Its up to the driver, he chose if he is more up to a gentel change, or the kick as gear change. Its realy some thing if you not feelt it before, belive me. You nead to max rev it in hardest mode to get the big bangs. Well now to the best part, when you are tierd of this, you just switch to atuto mode. Well now the car is like a comfy ride, you dont nead to change ears whit the paddels or the gearleaver its all auto. So whats so bad about that, that its a bit jerky the firts few minutes when car is started when cold in auto mode, well i dont die of that. On the contrary its super to beeing abel to chose. As in my case i only drive my CSL on varius tracks, but when im fore once on street i city where i live(its not often, i drive volvo then), it superior to drive CSL in auto mode. The scumi full all over i get so its enugh on track, very very seldom i gear my CSL by my selves, nor im i reving it over 6000rpm,when im on the sunday stroll. But if i feel for it i do the scumi even on street.

Well why is this great in it selv, becuse driving joy is very much sense, feeling. As well as the sound of a CSL over 6000rpm when the big carbonfiber air box open its air intake for engin, the sound inside the car is not from this world, together whit the gears slaming in whit big snapps. Well its hard to tell.

Any way the DSG box is not for real as you are not in charge there like the SMG. If you dont gear up in SMG the box dont do so, its you that make the call. It means you can play the revlimiter if you like or nead, as you do from time to time on track. DSG on the other hand gear up by it self if you go in to read zon whit RPMs. That not the way i like it, its not the drivers gearbox. When i drive on track i like to be in charge no ESP, and absolutly no box that change gears just beccuse i hit red marker in RPM display.

All in all i know a friend that just sold his 997 carrera s he also live in city where im at, he got so tierd of gearing all tim in slow traffick etc. I :D and said in an M car you dont nead to gea if you are not up for it.

In the end i think Mike Aronis said it well M5 is pretty loaded whit extra lyxurus things as well. And M cars is very safe to drive in vinter if propper tiers on, as well loads of fun drifting about. Heck vinter time i enjoed my RS6 avant far more then summer, even its driftebel in summer its more fun and easy in winter whit RS6, in the means of drifting about whit it.

Oh by the way the M5 engin just recived the worlds best motor award. It now got the prize to years in a row, only that is pretty amazing if you ask me. As well that M5/6 can be so over the top like nothing else agressiv, but then again so auto mode gentel and nice trimed down is also speccial. Son even Audi is rear driven as well as having power levels to chose from, if that day comes whats to say then? Is it relly that bad? I know some BMW are AWD, is that bad just for the reason Audi have it, i think not.

Leadfoot

June 7th, 2006, 21:38

exE46M3,

Manuals where offered in 360s, but most customer went for the F1 gearbox and yes I think that is the only options now available today in any Ferrari. Back with the 360 the F1 box wasn't rated very highly for day to day use, but as most people who own Ferraris never use them much on the road and most use track day it was regarded an acceptable compromise.

With each new Ferrari the system have improved upto a point where it is regarded closest to the DSG as the best of it type. I was at the dealers when the Brother-in-law tested the Z4M roadster, and has now ordered the Z4M Coupe. At the time we were discusing why the Z4Ms weren't getting the SMG box, he asked why would you want it, it's rubbish, he said he had just sold a second hand CSL to a fellow in the South of Ireland and had to drive down the 150 miles to hand it over and he said the gearbox was a dreadful (His words not mine as I have no experience of the CSL). I reckon he was talking about road use as any reports I have read rate it great on the track.

No I haven't drove a M3 with SMG, but I have drove a M5, it's ok but not great. It acceptable upto a point, meaning when traffic is flowing nicely and on the open road, but is just not good in stop/go traffic, how it compares to the M3's SMG, I can't said.

I have had out a couple of different cars with DSG and it is a much better at this than a manual, easier on the leg and is the only box of it's type that can do this job anyway like an auto, but still it's the auto that's best for this.

Lastly you ask why the S6 doesn't have DSG, it a luxury saloon with a lot of power and I would say Audi reckon the auto suits what they wanted for it. At the time the S6 was given the green light for development, the DSG box was only designed for the fwd platforms. Now will the RS6 get it, I don't know, it will be in the next A4/5 in 7speed form but it's layout is different from the A6, so maybe not. Every car has to make financial sense, if Audi see fitting this gearbox/diff system from the next A4 as a good idea then we will.

7:53 RS6

June 7th, 2006, 21:53

Originally posted by T3
I wasn't entirely clear - in the present discussion, I meant "enjoyable" in terms of the daily commuting grind.

The SMG is very enjoyable under the right circumstances. As I noted in an earlier post, if I commuted to work on a track, or on clear roads, I would have bought the M5. It's a riot in traffic-free, distraction-free conditions. The engine and the chassis dynamics are outstanding (particularly for a car that heavy).

And in fact, I'm on a list for the next M3 - but I'll likely use it as a second car, not a daily driver.

The autobox is a compromise - no question. But with the thrust produced by the RS6, it's much less of an issue (for me) than I first expected.

Sorry dident see this one, well a damn god commromise that alow you somthing from to worlds. How much M5/6 are you driving about in. As you comment i guess you have not driven it much relly, not meant in a bad way, but clearly M5/6 is drivebel, very much so in a nice and comfy way if you like. The only problems whit these cars are that they invit you to play as soon as you sitt in, and if you cant restrein you self and take it easy for that reason, but thats to live whit. But if you like its gentell and soft like a babys face.
Accually it is not that hard and jerky even in gear you self mode, very much depending of level of setting but also if you max rev it its sportier. I mean if i go in my CSL and gearing by my self and the setting is next to hardest or hardest, it not like it slams in gear then when im crusing in city in say 50 or 70 km/h, but if you revit full (or next to) then it smashes in gears like nothing else.
CSL is also very soft and gentel if you like, but it as well inspier to go max attack, then it comes alive, and never do it say no in protest. Most likely its the driver that cant cope whit its reall potential.
Last still stay out of compering S6 vs M5, but just talk a bit M i hope folks can live whit.

Leadfoot

June 7th, 2006, 22:15

7:53 RS6,

I agree the DSG shouldn't change up, this is software so Audi might change this in the future. But again we are coming from different points of view, you are think about track work, yes this has it's place in the life of a sportscar, but for most of us, their cars will spent very little time on the track and most of it on the road, here the gearbox changing up when you reach the limiter will matter little.

It's again the differences between Audi and BMW, one is the less sportier options, the other more so. Make your choice. There more than one way to skin a cat.

I perfer the softer less hardcore approach of Audi. You like the more hardcore highly strung approach of BMW.

exE46M3

June 7th, 2006, 23:28

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Manuals where offered in 360s, but most customer went for the F1 gearbox and yes I think that is the only options now available today in any Ferrari. Back with the 360 the F1 box wasn't rated very highly for day to day use, but as most people who own Ferraris never use them much on the road and most use track day it was regarded an acceptable compromise.
I know. I thought we were talking about the comparo though - i.e. M5 x S6 x E63. None of these cars offer a manual tranny. So, your point about the SMG-III not being a good replacement is a moot one. That's what I meant. ;)

Originally posted by Leadfoot
With each new Ferrari the system have improved upto a point where it is regarded closest to the DSG as the best of it type.
Closest to DSG? Don't get me wrong. DSG is beautifully designed, but Ferrari's F1 gearbox is exceptional. Lambo's Egear is developed and supplied by Magnetti Marelli. I guess this goes to show how good the F1 gearbox is.

Originally posted by Leadfoot
I was at the dealers when the Brother-in-law tested the Z4M roadster, and has now ordered the Z4M Coupe. At the time we were discusing why the Z4Ms weren't getting the SMG box, he asked why would you want it, it's rubbish, he said he had just sold a second hand CSL to a fellow in the South of Ireland and had to drive down the 150 miles to hand it over and he said the gearbox was a dreadful (His words not mine as I have no experience of the CSL). I reckon he was talking about road use as any reports I have read rate it great on the track.
He pulled that lame argument out of his a** if you ask me... Not sure you noticed, but SMG has been deleted from the entire Z4 range, and the reason is cost. Otherwise, why would BMW not offer SMG-II in the Z4M, which shares its basic drivetrain with the M3? ;) I'm sorry you guys had to put up with BS from a salesperson who has no clue.

Originally posted by Leadfoot
No I haven't drove a M3 with SMG, but I have drove a M5, it's ok but not great. It acceptable upto a point, meaning when traffic is flowing nicely and on the open road, but is just not good in stop/go traffic...
Well, that's your opinion and I'm OK with it... Each to his own, I guess... :thumb:

Originally posted by Leadfoot
At the time the S6 was given the green light for development, the DSG box was only designed for the fwd platforms...
Good thing you're not with BMW then... As you can see, it would've been a real pain to fit the M5 with DSG... :hihi:

CarbonFibre

June 8th, 2006, 02:21

Originally posted by exE46M3
Closest to DSG? Don't get me wrong. DSG is beautifully designed, but Ferrari's F1 gearbox is exceptional. Lambo's Egear is developed and supplied by Magnetti Marelli. I guess this goes to show how good the F1 gearbox is.
Yes, Ferrari have developed this gearbox for longer and far better than the same technology used in the Lamborghinis and Aston Martins.

Leadfoot

June 8th, 2006, 11:05

1/ Closest to DSG? Don't get me wrong. DSG is beautifully designed, but Ferrari's F1 gearbox is exceptional. Lambo's Egear is developed and supplied by Magnetti Marelli. I guess this goes to show how good the F1 gearbox is.

Both Ferrari's & Lambo's gearbox system are supplied by Magnetti Marelli. Yes Ferrari's is the better, but compared to DSG it is still unrefined as an auto, but I would agree that it's a better option if you are going to use the car for track-days. But saying it better than DSG who are you kidding.

2/ He pulled that lame argument out of his a** if you ask me... Not sure you noticed, but SMG has been deleted from the entire Z4 range, and the reason is cost. Otherwise, why would BMW not offer SMG-II in the Z4M, which shares its basic drivetrain with the M3? ;) I'm sorry you guys had to put up with BS from a salesperson who has no clue."

This saleman is a family friend and I doubt his talking through his arse. Yes I know the the reasons why SMG wasn't used and it is to do with cost, there is less SMGs sold than manuals and the number is so little that it was not cost effective to put it in the Z4. BMW see the Z4 as it's most focused driver's car and believe the sales of SMGs wouldn't be there, simple as that.

3/ Good thing you're not with BMW then... As you can see, it would've been a real pain to fit the M5 with DSG... :hihi:

BMW are at present working an their own DSG type gearbox, so they must see the benefits of this magical gearbox.

exE46M3

June 8th, 2006, 16:54

As I said, DSG is a kick a** design. Now, assuming it's the best can be complicated because as we've seen, everything is a compromise - remember, nothing is just good or just bad... :thumb: I understand if you want to use it as benchmark though. :thumb:

Sorry, but in my opinion an argument like "why would you want it? It's garbage" is something he did pull out of his a**...

Anyway, if you do understand the reason is cost, personal views become irrelevant - mind you, SMG was offered in the Z4 range until last year.

Of course they are working on something similar, and I'm willing to bet others are working on it as well... :thumb:

7:53 RS6

June 8th, 2006, 20:43

Originally posted by Leadfoot
7:53 RS6,

I agree the DSG shouldn't change up, this is software so Audi might change this in the future. But again we are coming from different points of view, you are think about track work, yes this has it's place in the life of a sportscar, but for most of us, their cars will spent very little time on the track and most of it on the road, here the gearbox changing up when you reach the limiter will matter little.

It's again the differences between Audi and BMW, one is the less sportier options, the other more so. Make your choice. There more than one way to skin a cat.

I perfer the softer less hardcore approach of Audi. You like the more hardcore highly strung approach of BMW.

Thats fine whit me, we all prefer diffrent things. But cant you still agree a bit at least that even the M5 can do necksanpping gearchanges it can as well do the opposit, as beeing very soft and smoth. If you go 400hp as well go softest gearchanging mode in atutomatic. Now you can cruise along as a normal buick. And accually its not that jerki in auto gearchange as you learn to drive the car after a while. Car journalist very seldom get in to a car like that, like a person owning one do. My CSL is only jerky the first changes when cold going auto mode, then its smothe. Even if it was not, i still would had liked it, just knowing to beeing abel to chose auto or SMG manuell in the same sportscar is great.
In the S6 you have to be pleased whit what you got, its not like you can change the car around like if you are up for it, or not.
I would had loved the new RS4 even more if it was changebel like M5, as even you drive a sporty car like RS4 it would be great to skipp gearing all time, in traffick in city where i live. And just cruise auto for a while during rush houer. And be sporty using the DSG(SMG) the next time etc, etc. That i love whit Mcars, you can chose. It would not been fun to sitt in every day rush houer whit CSL if it was not a auto mode. All cars should have auto mode to chose as well as necksnapping mode if you like. And soon i think most have it, even Porsche
Dont forget that SMG is not a atomatic, so the compromise to even go auto is very great. We all end up to se what we want to see in a test like autobild, and M5 vs S6. M5 is no track car, not is S6 one.

Leadfoot

June 9th, 2006, 10:32

7:53 RS6,

I will admit that the M5 isn't a bad effort at being a Sportscar/Luxury saloon, if you admit the S6 is the better all rounder for day-to-day transport. Deal.:cheers:

7:53 RS6

June 9th, 2006, 11:49

Originally posted by Leadfoot
7:53 RS6,

I will admit that the M5 isn't a bad effort at being a Sportscar/Luxury saloon, if you admit the S6 is the better all rounder for day-to-day transport. Deal.:cheers:
Ok, S6 is a better allrounder, still not as edgy and fun as the other one:revs:

Aronis

June 9th, 2006, 15:38

Originally posted by 7:53 RS6
Ok, S6 is a better allrounder, still not as edgy and fun as the other one:revs:

After seeing the RS4/M3 video...'fun' is relative - THEY were having FUN...LOL....

The S6 is a better looking car IMO, but I'd take either if your giving them away LOL.

Mike

7:53 RS6

June 9th, 2006, 21:19

Originally posted by Aronis
After seeing the RS4/M3 video...'fun' is relative - THEY were having FUN...LOL....

The S6 is a better looking car IMO, but I'd take either if your giving them away LOL.

Mike

Me too :p
Anyway the RS4 is not as entertaining to drift as it wont do so for a long stretch as the M quite easy will. As well try to drift RS4 in dry tarmac, as in M its a walk in the park, and super fun as doing so. Where RS4 it will not be as fun in the dry;)

Anyway back to the topic again. Teknikens värld car mag in Sweden had a test just now. BMW 320 si(the one they build the race car on) against Passat, guess the car that won in points. Thats right Passat, but i would not have buy it even so.:D

These points that valu diffrent overall things, is fun to read, but often it dosent say more than accually diffrent peopel value diffrent tings in a car and the overall comes out like that. Meaning it could differ in the next mag as they may valu other things etc. etc.
Dont get me wrong, i dont mind S6 came out on higher points as well i dont mind Passat did the same. I dont buy car on these points and i guess im not alone in not buying a car as of that reason its a winner in a subjuctive point of view. Its like i kind of have hard to relly enjoy sports where the contender are judged by some in how your preformance was, like figure skating or swimjump. It could be so big diffrens, its up to peopel what they think. On the other hand i like preforming sports like, boxing, fotball, racing, running etc,etc.:bye: :race:
Any way just a tought.

Leadfoot

June 12th, 2006, 16:17

7:53 RS6,

I agree, I don't buy car just on the strength of a magazine report because if I did and listened to the likes of Autocar, I would be driving BMW all of my life. Yes magazine are useful in providing facts and figure and there opinion on which is the better. But testers are a different breed than the rest of us, when you test cars day-in day-out you will look for what is entertaining not way what is the best to living with.

That is why with the likes of Autocar, EVO and Car there is a packing order,
Audi gives way to BMW
BMW gives way to Porsche
Porsche gives way to Ferrari

and so on. Each of these brands are on an entertainment bar graph with Audi in general at the bottem and Ferrari at the top, which is the best to live with, well need you ask.:D