Will Audi step up to the plate?

[chiphead]

The new M Coupe and Roadsters are getting virtually universal praise. Audi's TT has never been a performance leader, despite industry leading design. Do you think the new TT will be able to face up to the challenge? Maybe not the M but the regular Z4? Audi's R8 is probably too exotic to be a fair fight... Maybe if Audi focused more on improving performance instead of creating a boutique car...

[nene]

The current/outgoing Audi TT got plenty accolades when it arrived on the market, and for many years since its introduction. In fact, it probably got better reviews then the Z4 M Roadster or coupe. The Audi TT is a classic.

As for the new Audi TT, no worries. I am sure it will be just fine.

The Z3 M Roadster got plenty of good reviews when it came out, and in 12 months time it got plenty of folks complaining how the car had lots of issues. I won't even bug you about the Z3 M Roadster.

As for the Z4, yep, I like it. And yes it is getting plenty of "universal praise" (as if the green guys from Mars have also test driven it). Yet I feel that in 12 months period it will go the same route as its predecessor.

The outgoing TT on the other hand, still great.
I would take the sexy beast below over either of the cars you mentioned...any day! And it's old news.

http://m3.mayzurk.com/meem/tt/tt-album/slides/alley-1.jpg

[BBGT2]

Originally posted by nene

As for the new Audi TT, no worries. I am sure it will be just fine.
http://m3.mayzurk.com/meem/tt/tt-album/slides/alley-1.jpg



Nelson,

That sentence summed it up real good the thinking at Audi, however "fine" is not good enough when we know they can do better, ALOT better.
When I see the RS6+ it makes me cringe, they got what 30hp more out of the same engine the regular RS6 had, with all their expretise WHY couldnt they have given the "regular" RS6 around 500hp and make it a little tougher for the old M5 to tackle and make the new M5 seem like "old news".
Cost is not a question here as these cars already came with low production numbers and werent for the masses anyway and we all paid a premium for having a special A6.
Look at the Benze they havent even sold the first S550 here when they announced they were giving it the monster V12 from the 65 lineup.
And now the CLS65 is also being offered along with the CLS63, talk about getting our butts handed to us.
Dont get me wrong and I dont mean any disrespect as I consider you a friend and hate to sound like I am Audi bashing, I LOVE Audi's always have and always will, jeez I cant even remember how many I had to be honest with you.
BUT, they really need to step up and play hardball if they wanna keep running with the big dogs in this game, and knowing they can beat those big dogs and have them keep trying to be so PC and be market savy is going to hurt them in the long run. Now they wont even offer the maintenance program, to me I think they are resting on their laurells (sp?) WAY to soon.
No they wanna cash in on the SUV market and officialy be the LAST auto maker to do so with the Q7, and now plans for a Q5, A4 coupe, A5 sedan, ect etc.
They have had the niche market with the Quattro system and are losing focus. I pray that with their next gen RS6 they really hit one out of the ballpark cause if they do they will have me back as a customer, and I will NOT spend countless dollars installing itmes that were in cars across the pond because they didnt want to "DOT" approve them. I really hope that they monitor these boards so they can hear what some of their loyal customer have to say cause their dealers are just car pushers and dont care as most of them are not car enthusiasts anyway to begin with.
On a brighter note I am going to have a great weekend with my kids and wish the same to everyone here.

Bajo:addict:

[Inline Six]

I've never read a single review that complimented the performance and handling of the outgoing TT. The Quattro Sport finally got it right, but was critisized for "too little, too late" (and it was never sold in the US). When I traded mine in, I test drove the 6-banger with DSG - drove it for 10 min then walked right over to the BMW dealer next door. The TT was the coolest car I've ever owned, but it was a horrible drive.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by Inline Six
I've never read a single review that complimented the performance and handling of the outgoing TT. The Quattro Sport finally got it right, but was critisized for "too little, too late" (and it was never sold in the US). When I traded mine in, I test drove the 6-banger with DSG - drove it for 10 min then walked right over to the BMW dealer next door. The TT was the coolest car I've ever owned, but it was a horrible drive.

I owned a TT 225 Coupe, but unlike you I changed to a S4, had BMWs, just didn't like them much. The TT was too refined and safe to be classed as a sportscar, more looks than substance it drove more like a saloon and this is why there was so many reports that complained about it's handling, it was too safe, something Audi engineered into it after the fatal accidents. The TT handling though safe was quick enough on the track and was the equal for it's nearest rival the BMW 328ci and performance wise it was even quicker in acceleration.

With the new TT, I believe Audi has shifted it's position from a fashion item to a real sportscar, the fact that they are no longer using the Golf chassis but an alloy/steel mix with all the heavier steel at the back to improve the balance, using a very advanced suspension option (magnetic ride), believe me the new TT will be unbelieveably good and has the Z4 and 3series coupe firmly in it's headlights.

For the first time, BMW will be playing second fiddle to Audi and one will be able to enjoy the handling, the quality, the performance as much as the styling.

Both the Z4Ms though very quick, are reportably different (a bit of a handful) to drive quickly. So though in the right hands quicker than a Cayman, in the hands of the rest of us as slow as a standard Boxster something with 100hp less, hardly moving the game on now is it. I belive the v6 TT will be quicker than both the Z4 3.0s and the 330ci but doubt it will match the M models, for that you will need the up and coming TT-S or TT-RS.

[clam]

Top Gear comparison: R32 versus 130i (9min) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDF4wsxbMN4)

^^^This comparison gives us a good idea of how the two cars will compare.

The 1series is basically a 4door Z4 coupé,
and the TT is an R32 plus a whole bunch of technology like variable damping, ASF, lightweight suspensions, etc....

So I suspect that the Z4 coupé will be labeled the enthusiast car, while the TT will be the best all rounder. In numbers the TT will kick its ass, but Audis practical handling will probably be called boring by automotive journalists who don't realize that people do not powerslide their way to work.

As for the performance version, if Audi decides to go that route, the M will face some serious competition. The MKIV platform has shown it can handle supercar performance in the shape of the HGP R32. The new TT platform can better that. But, Audi might hold the TT back in favour of the R8. Which is a more suitable platform to pursue that market segment.

And people who still prefer a performance TT can count on a strong aftermarket. The M /// Z4 starts at €80k. An HGP BiTurbo conversion all incl. won't be far off that price, and will put +550hp in a car that is 100kgs lighter.

[Inline Six]

Originally posted by clam
[B]Top Gear comparison: R32 versus 130i (9min) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDF4wsxbMN4)

^^^This comparison gives us a good idea of how the two cars will compare.

The 1series is basically a 4door Z4 coup?
and the TT is an R32 plus a whole bunch of technology like variable damping, ASF, lightweight suspensions, etc....


That is not a valid comparison. The Z4's E85/E86 chassis is far and away from the E87 1-series. Plus, the M Roadster/Coupe in discussion here has the old school 3.2L S54 engine with individual throttle bodies and a ZF 6-spd, the 130i has the new 3.0L Valvetronic N52 engine with a Getrag 6spd box. Completely different animals.

If you have to compare, the TT's equivalent in BMW's line-up is the 3-series coupe. The June issue of CAR has an artical on it.

[Leadfoot]

Clam,

Well said, the only thing I disagree with is the hi-performance TT. Audi have already stated that they look on the TT as a junior R8, not the RS5 or any other model in the range but the TT, so Audi reckon the new TT is up to the job and will put an engine that will bridge the gap between the 3.2v6 and what ever the base model R8 will be.

What engine they will give it is still guess work, but I believe it will kick out the best part of 330-350hp possibly 3.2Lv6 Twin Turbo.

Most of the BMW fans on the site will not agree that the 1series and the Z4 have a lot in common, but I think the TT will be a lot closer in the entertainment depart to the Z4 coupe than the R32 was to the 1series but as you said it will be the better all rounder as well as being practical. One thing for sure, it's the better looker on the outside and miles better looking on the inside. As for me, I see the TT as more a rival for the 3series coupe, though some reckon that is the role of the new A5, me I'm not so sure, I see it rivaling the 6series as well, at least for the for seeable future. I believe the up and coming VW roadster with it's mid mount engine, rwd and Lotus development will take on the Z4.

Just while we are on the subject of VW, I thought that Audi was the performance brand and VW the people's transport. Why are they producing performance model, especially why are they developing a sportscar?:vhmmm:

[AndyBG]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Just while we are on the subject of VW, I thought that Audi was the performance brand and VW the people's transport. Why are they producing performance model, especially why are they developing a sportscar?:vhmmm:

I just think oposite, it was about time for VW to make ''comeback'' on the ''peoples'' sport car market, there are thosends, maybe even milions of potential buyers of VWs sport car, wait and you will see.

:bye:

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by AndyBG
I just think oposite, it was about time for VW to make ''comeback'' on the ''peoples'' sport car market, there are thosends, maybe even milions of potential buyers of VWs sport car, wait and you will see.

:bye:

Don't get me wrong, I think VW should do model like the GTI but not the R32 and especially not the R36. Who in there right mind would buy a S3 which will be 30K+ with 270hp when you can buy a more practical 4dr, equally as well made, maybe with 300hp and costing the best part of 4K less. And it's not going to stop with the Golf, the Passat will get this engine and it might have even more power, where will that leave the S4?

No, as I said, I have no problem with the GTI but leave it at that or why make Audis.

[AndyBG]

I think that their logic is that at the end of the road, what ever car you buy (VW, Audi, Skoda, Bugatti...) all money goes in the same pocket, so they are offering everything for everybody, its yours to choose.

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
Who in there right mind would buy a S3 which will be 30K+ with 270hp when you can buy a more practical 4dr, equally as well made, maybe with 300hp and costing the best part of 4K less.

Those who want a more sophisticated ride. The Audi ownership experience is completely different.

VW is aiming at the "pocket-rockets" coming out of Japan - the WRX is a good example. An A3 S line would be "too refined" for that. Especially with a $40K price tag.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by exE46M3
Those who want a more sophisticated ride. The Audi ownership experience is completely different.

VW is aiming at the "pocket-rockets" coming out of Japan - the WRX is a good example. An A3 S line would be "too refined" for that. Especially with a $40K price tag.

No way would I say that Audi give a more sophisticated ride, especially the A3. I got the manager of my shop a Golf GTI and the niece has a A3 sport, both basically the same apart of the badge on the front, yes I feel the Audi has the great grade of plastics but after that the GTI wins hands down, the feel from the steering to the ride quality the GTI is better, I know Audi at present don't tune their suspensions to UK road, but when compared to the GTI one would have to say VW do. The only reason for buying the Audi would be the awd system.

I know that the GTI and the R32 are possibly the best cars VW produce, but if the only reason for choosing the Audi would be the badge and with the A3 that a very poor arguement.

With regards to the R32 aiming at the Japanese cars I don't think so, yes their abilities are impressive and they are very quick, but they are too unrefined to be used as day to day transport, the ride was design to keep dentist in business and keep you thin because your food wouldn't stay in your stomach long enough to make you fatpuke: and you are lucky to get 200 miles from a tank and if you cane them you can empty it in 30 minutes. They should come with a warning :deal:'Club 18-30 and single should only apply'.

[exE46M3]

By "ride" I meant "car". Audi cars are more sophisticated. The onwership experience (I never mentioned badge, did I?) is better.

There's no doubt the R32 will outperform an A3 S line. That's one of the reasons I said the A3 is "too refined".

As for the Japanese cars, I was very specific. I referred to "poket-rockets" coming out of Japan. I even provided an example. You said make the GTi, but not others. Well, do you really think a GTi can handle a WRX? Heck, the RSX-Type S is a tall order for the GTi.

Do you think the WRX is unrefined? Sure, it's no luxury car, but unrefined is a bit of a stretch. Plus, who buys a GTi for refinement?

I can see VW models fighting more general Japanese models: Jetta x Accord 2.4 x Mazda 6; Passat x Camry LE x Accord V6; GTi x RSX-Type S. Of course, that does not mean VW's key competitors are all Japanese.

Anyway, this is getting way OT.

[clam]

Originally posted by Inline Six
That is not a valid comparison. The Z4's E85/E86 chassis is far and away from the E87 1-series. Plus, the M Roadster/Coupe in discussion here has the old school 3.2L S54 engine with individual throttle bodies and a ZF 6-spd, the 130i has the new 3.0L Valvetronic N52 engine with a Getrag 6spd box. Completely different animals.

If you have to compare, the TT's equivalent in BMW's line-up is the 3-series coupe. The June issue of CAR has an artical on it.

It is valid, b/c I was comparing the basic 3.0l version Z4 coupé. As far as I know, that is the exact same drivetrain as the 130i. You can't compare the current TT line up to the M version Z4 b/c there is about 100hp and €20k between them.


Originally posted by Leadfoot
Clam,

Well said, the only thing I disagree with is the hi-performance TT. Audi have already stated that they look on the TT as a junior R8, not the RS5 or any other model in the range but the TT, so Audi reckon the new TT is up to the job and will put an engine that will bridge the gap between the 3.2v6 and what ever the base model R8 will be.

What engine they will give it is still guess work, but I believe it will kick out the best part of 330-350hp possibly 3.2Lv6 Twin Turbo.


You might be right. The TT does look purposefully prepared to handle a lot more than the Golf. That rumoured BiTurbo 2.0 would fit your suggested performance-range.

I think a 4cyl is more likely to be the performance engine. Audi obviously spend a great deal of effort getting the weight balance right. For the flagship TT, they'll want to take advantage of that, and use the lightest engine configuration. The S3 flagship model will also use the 4cyl Turbo, instead of the VR6 from the A3 3.2.

B/c the total chassis weight is less, any shift in weight will have a bigger effect on the weight balance. I think that's the reason why Audi bothered to make a hybrid aluminium and steel chassis. The ASF brings down the total weight, but the engines up front still weigh the same. So their weight has a bigger impact on the balance.
And there is off course also the acceleration and braking advantage in saving a few kilograms.

[Inline Six]

Originally posted by clam
[B]It is valid, b/c I was comparing the basic 3.0l version Z4 coupé. As far as I know, that is the exact same drivetrain as the 130i. You can't compare the current TT line up to the M version Z4 b/c there is about 100hp and €20k between them.



Still not valid. You cannot have the 130i vs R32 test as your basis. How those 2 compare has nothing to do with how will the Z4 and TT compare. Like I said, the Z4's chassis is FAR AND AWAY from the 1er, while the R32 and TT do share the exact same chassis. And once again like I mentioned, the TT's equivalent on BMW's side is the 3-series coupe, not the Z4.

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by Inline Six
...the TT's equivalent on BMW's side is the 3-series coupe, not the Z4.

What about the Z4 Coupe?

[Benman]

Originally posted by BBGT2

When I see the RS6+ it makes me cringe, they got what 30hp more out of the same engine the regular RS6 had, with all their expretise WHY couldnt they have given the "regular" RS6 around 500hp...
Wha' Da' mean Bajo? As soon as my Beast is out of warranty. it will have 500+HP. :D



Originally posted by BBGT2

No they wanna cash in on the SUV market and officialy be the LAST auto maker to do so with the Q7...

Not true... there's still Jaguar, AM, Maserati, Ferrari...:trash: :D

Back to topic, I for one am anxious to see just how good the MkII TT really is! Here's to hoping!

Ben:addict:

[BBGT2]

Ben, that is what this really needs is a SUV from those automakers !



Bajo

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by Inline Six
Still not valid. You cannot have the 130i vs R32 test as your basis. How those 2 compare has nothing to do with how will the Z4 and TT compare. Like I said, the Z4's chassis is FAR AND AWAY from the 1er, while the R32 and TT do share the exact same chassis. And once again like I mentioned, the TT's equivalent on BMW's side is the 3-series coupe, not the Z4.

I'm sorry but how do you class the R32 and the TT the same chassis and not the 1series and the Z4. Both BMWs use the same basic suspension systems, use the same engine/gearboxs the same rear diff have the same wheelbase and if I'm not mistaken that basically the same similarity that the R32 has with the TT. The big difference is weight balance, both BMW are 50/50 so the same, now the TT is a lot better on that front than the R32 so will be even better in the handling department. Now we come to weight, both BMWs are near enough the same weight so performance is roughly the same as well, now the R32 and TT, the TT's weight is the best part of 170Kg least and the performance, miles better.

I know that with a callsign like 'inline six' you are a BMW fan at heart, but you would have to admit the Z4 coupe 3.0L will be destroyed by the new TT 3.2v6 and that before we even get to the practicality. Just as the R32 sent the 130i home with it's tail between it's legs, it will be a similar excercise for the TT against the Z4 and this would be for you even speced the 'Magnetic ride'.

[Inline Six]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
I'm sorry but how do you class the R32 and the TT the same chassis and not the 1series and the Z4. Both BMWs use the same basic suspension systems, use the same engine/gearboxs the same rear diff have the same wheelbase and if I'm not mistaken that basically the same similarity that the R32 has with the TT. The big difference is weight balance, both BMW are 50/50 so the same, now the TT is a lot better on that front than the R32 so will be even better in the handling department. Now we come to weight, both BMWs are near enough the same weight so performance is roughly the same as well, now the R32 and TT, the TT's weight is the best part of 170Kg least and the performance, miles better.

I know that with a callsign like 'inline six' you are a BMW fan at heart, but you would have to admit the Z4 coupe 3.0L will be destroyed by the new TT 3.2v6 and that before we even get to the practicality. Just as the R32 sent the 130i home with it's tail between it's legs, it will be a similar excercise for the TT against the Z4 and this would be for you even speced the 'Magnetic ride'.

FIY, engine + drivetrain + suspension /= chassis. Chassis is the platform, the basic vehicle structure. The R32 and TT share the same chassis the same way Passat and A4 share the B7 chassis, the same way Z3 shared the E36 chassis with old 3er. The Z4 has a unique chassis codenamed E85/86, the 1er has a chassis codenamed E87 which is similar to the 3er's E90 in design, but not in terms of size.

And I'm not here to compare BMW performance to Audi performance. If you read carefully, I never did that in any of my posts. You can go pages on that topic, but I'm not interested. I'm by no means a BMW fanboy. I just happen to like the straight-six configuration, which was widely used by manufacturers prior to the 90's, and IMO superior to V6 or flat-6.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by Inline Six
FIY, engine + drivetrain + suspension /= chassis. Chassis is the platform, the basic vehicle structure. The R32 and TT share the same chassis the same way Passat and A4 share the B7 chassis, the same way Z3 shared the E36 chassis with old 3er. The Z4 has a unique chassis codenamed E85/86, the 1er has a chassis codenamed E87 which is similar to the 3er's E90 in design, but not in terms of size.

And I'm not here to compare BMW performance to Audi performance. If you read carefully, I never did that in any of my posts. You can go pages on that topic, but I'm not interested. I'm by no means a BMW fanboy. I just happen to like the straight-six configuration, which was widely used by manufacturers prior to the 90's, and IMO superior to V6 or flat-6.

Sorry about that, I just thought you perfered BMWs when I saw what you drove.

You will have to explain to me how the R32 and the TT use the same chassis. One's made solely from steel and the other a mix of alloy+steel, the wheel base is 90mm shorter in the TT, front track is 38mm wider while rear track is 50mm more. Yes you could say that the passat and the A4/old A6 used the same chassis even though all their wheelbases were different, just because BMW call it by a different name doesn't mean they are configured that much different.

I stand by what I said before as the R32 eat the 130i so will the TT destory the Z4 on and off the track. And I will be safe in the knowledge that when the weather turns nasty I will still be able to depoly all of my horses and wave bye-bye to all you rwd junkie. :bye:

[eazy]

In Germany, the Z4 is the competitor to the TT, especially in road tests.

[clam]

You're definition of a chassis is wrong. A chassis is a frame to which you attach all the parts. And it's not a word exclusive to cars. A synonym is skeleton. A building or a gun or a piece of furniture can have a chassis too. That's what it means.
VAG does not share chassis, it's has a 'platform strategy'. Something as old as the automotive industrie. A platform is not a fysical thing they stand on, but a metaphorical common base. Drivetrain, subframes, electronics,... Just like ancient apes are our platform, but we don't stand on them. It's a starting point.
The monocoque chassis incorporates the shape of the car, so it would be impossible for different shaped cars to actually share a chassis. The 3door and 5door Golf for instance, do not share a chassis. They are build on the same platform.

But this isn't a discussion of semantics. It's about whether the R32-130i comparison is 'a platform' to judge the TT Z4 comparison. That's a yes/no question.

The Z3 used the semi trailing suspension of the E30 chassis. While the E36 had the Z-suspension (multilink), that was pioneered by the Z1.
The front suspension of the Z4 is the same as the Z3, and the rear suspension is a multilink similar to every BMW. The 1 series version is even more advanced than that of the Z4.
Hartge designed a completely new front suspension for their Z4s, on account of how crap it was.

The point is not that it is the exact same material. It's the design. And you cannot deny that the overall design of the 130i is very similar to the Z4 3.0, to the point that the only significant difference is the extra doors. Same drivetrain, similar chassis ... it's safe to assume that their performance will be similar. That's where you disagree, right? I'm sure the Z4 coupé will be compared to the 130i, by reputable magazines. The difference between the Z4 and 1series is like the 5series versus the 6series.

While the TT and R32 are similar in drivetrain, the actual chassis is of a completely different design. A traditional steel monocoque, versus a steel/alumiunium monocoque that is constructed in a very different way. The subframes and suspension from the TT are an A5 design, but in aluminium. The TT is a very different car, and the difference will most likely be beneficial to its performance.

So...

R32 > 130i
R32 < TT
130i = Z4
=>
TT > Z4


(PS: The Passat uses the A5 subframes from the Golf, not the B7 Audi.)

[Benman]

Originally posted by clam

So...

R32 > 130i
R32 < TT
130i = Z4
=>
TT > Z4



:applause: We shall see (and hope ;) )...

Ben:addict:

[Iceman]

The new TT 3.2 Quattro is owesome with magnetic ride.
It's in the same league as the Porsche Cayman S.

Hans.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by Iceman
The new TT 3.2 Quattro is owesome with magnetic ride.
It's in the same league as the Porsche Cayman S.

Hans.

Iceman,

I take it you are refering to the magazine that's due out.

If you are right that will be some feat because after test driving the Cayman S at a Porsche day, all I will say is it has been the most impressive car I have drove in a very long time. It's balance on both road and track was amazing, the best handling normal Porsche on sale today and way better than a RS4 which is at present is the best Audi. The only thing I would doubt is it's ability to entertain like the Cayman, if it can do that they will not be able to make enough of them.

I have read quite a few reports on the Ferrari 599 which has the same suspension that is optional on the TT and all reports state it to be amazing.

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by clam So...

R32 > 130i
R32 < TT
130i = Z4
=>
TT > Z4

Sorry, but things are not that black & white... The above is like saying:

R32 > 130i
R32 < TT
130i=Boxster (which it's not - keep reading)
=>
TT > Boxster

Not sure you guys remember, but beating the Z4 3.0 (3.0L 215HP) is something that the old Boxster couldn't do. When the new one (987) came out the press compared them again and performance-wise they're pretty darn even.

You can download a very nice comparo from here (http://www.7digital.com/stores/productDetail.aspx?shop=54&sid=219207)

Of course, the Porsche heritage won everybody over, but then again there's the new Z4 3.0si now and the Z4 Coupe has an even lower center of gravity.

Anyway, as Benman said, we shall see (and hope the new TT beats them all - hands down!)

PS: I agree that the new TT is not just a rebodied Golf like the old one. Audi did make an honest sports car out of the TT this time around.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by exE46M3
Sorry, but things are not that black & white... The above is like saying:

R32 > 130i
R32 < TT
130i=Boxster (which it's not - keep reading)
=>
TT > Boxster

Not sure you guys remember, but beating the Z4 3.0 (3.0L 215HP) is something that the old Boxster couldn't do. When the new one (987) came out the press compared them again and performance-wise they're pretty darn even.

You can download a very nice comparo from here (http://www.7digital.com/stores/productDetail.aspx?shop=54&sid=219207)

Of course, the Porsche heritage won everybody over, but then again there's the new Z4 3.0si now and the Z4 Coupe has an even lower center of gravity.

Anyway, as Benman said, we shall see (and hope the new TT beats them all - hands down!)

PS: I agree that the new TT is not just a rebodied Golf like the old one. Audi did make an honest sports car out of the TT this time around.

I have been lucky enough to drive a Z4 2.5L roadster around the handling track at Rockingham at the same time as M3s where on the track and there is no doubt the Z4 is a very good handling car, it's actually quicker on this track than the M3 by quite a bit and I have also driven on a few Porsche days a 997, Cayman S and a Boxster and I'm F1 driver but in a standard Boxster I overtook 4 out of the 5 997 that where on the track at the same time. Good as the Z4 is it isn't a Boxster that's for sure, you feel the Boxster working with you something no BMW or Audi I have drove has done. If you think they are equal on the performance front, only on paper b/c you have to see the Topgear test with Boxster vs Z4M and over a 1/4 mile the Z4M pulled one and a bit lengths, not much for a 60hp advantage. Yes it bloody quick in the right hands but as for the rest of us the Boxster will win hands down.

[exE46M3]

Leadfoot,

Please, read posts more carefully. I was not saying that the Z4 is better than the Boxster. I simply threw the Porsche into the mix in order to highlight potentially flawed logic.

I posted a link to the Fifth Gear shootout... While Top Gear may be great entertainment, they don't come anywhere near Fifth Gear when it comes to shootouts/reviews - as you can see, my previous post really was based on specs only... :rolleyes:

Also, notice that I said the Boxster won everybody over. It's the whole experience that counts! So, no wonder the Boxster S is a better package (albeit slower than I'd like). Heck, even the old Boxster might be a better package, but the fact of the matter is that it could not beat the Z4 3.0.

Anyway, what really matters is that Audi did step up to the plate with the new TT. It's exciting to see how much effort they're putting into new models.

[Leadfoot]

exE46M3,

To use your quote 'Of course, the Porsche heritage won everybody over'. Sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick, I took it from that you were implying that it was the whole history of the brand and not the car's ability which won everyone over.

As I have said I really rate the Z4, it's a better handling car than a M3 and that's the roadster, the coupe will no doubt be better still but like all Audis and BMWs of late they all offer a disconnected feel from the steering wheel to the road something any Porsche has by the bucket full. That is why my reply to Iceman stated that I doubt the TT will entertain as well as the Cayman even if it's handling is on the money.

But for me I place all round ability ahead of entertainment, no Z4 or Cayman/Boxster will give me four seats, a useable boot, awd safety and in my opinion killer styling inside and out for the same money, this is why I don't really see the Z4 or Cayman as rivals for the TT, that is the job of the 3 series coupe and I doubt even the 335i will be up to that job.

[Inline Six]

LOL @ "TT > Z4" and "TT in the same league as Cayman S"

So you guys already concluded that a car nobody has driven yet is better than a proven top-notch car? And the reason is something like "orange > tangerine > apple = peach"? I feel like I'm back in elementary school...:argue:

[clam]

Originally posted by Inline Six
LOL @ "TT > Z4" and "TT in the same league as Cayman S"

So you guys already concluded that a car nobody has driven yet is better than a proven top-notch car? And the reason is something like "orange > tangerine > apple = peach"? I feel like I'm back in elementary school...:argue:

The whole debate it is that we do not know, but can use the R32 versus 130i comparison as an guestimation.

I like the Z4 coupé a lot. I even like the way it looks. Traditional sportscars have a place in the market. But the TT has a weight advantage, and will probably put its power down better, like the R32 does versus the 130i. And being based on the A5 platform, that is made to be practical, and also a bunch cheaper, it will be a better deal than the Z4 Coupé. The Z4 coupé is something you buy if you don't have a family, or have a second car.

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
...like all Audis and BMWs of late they all offer a disconnected feel from the steering wheel to the road something any Porsche has by the bucket full.

Sorry, but the Z4 can be anything but disconnected. Sure, it may feel more isolated compared to the Boxster, but never disconnected.


Originally posted by Leadfoot
...I place all round ability ahead of entertainment, no Z4 or Cayman/Boxster will give me four seats, a useable boot, awd safety and in my opinion killer styling inside and out for the same money...

If this is not useable, I don't know what is...

http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/7D04ED72-34BD-497A-9ACD-86F4850D6AD7/0/z4_C_gallery_09.jpg

Sure, with the "rear seat" folded the TT may be roomier, but it's not like cargo space in the Z4 Coupe is non-existent.

Speaking of rear seat, I'd like to see interior pics of the new TT. Does anybody have them? The current/outgoing model is far from a 4-seater.

Anyway, those who need to haul 4 people and lugage will never buy any of these cars.

Looks are highly subjective. I find the Z4 very attractive and the new Coupe ($40K) is already cheaper than the current/outgoing TT Special Edition ($42K).

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by Inline Six
LOL @ "TT > Z4" and "TT in the same league as Cayman S"

So you guys already concluded that a car nobody has driven yet is better than a proven top-notch car? And the reason is something like "orange > tangerine > apple = peach"? I feel like I'm back in elementary school...:argue:

Explain how you see TT vs Z4 as apples and oranges. Car magazines around the world have been testing these car together even back when one was the Z3. Nobody has drove it, yes and no to that, yes - some magazines have drove it but couldn't make the press in time for the last edition, first test is out in a German mag today, so somebody other than Audi staff has drove it, no - none of us have drove it so were waiting to see what the magazines report. How Iceman is getting his information who knows, but he's got the ear of somebody with his finger on the pulse.

The signs are there for the makings of a great car, ASF chassis the heaviest metal at the rear, trick suspension like in the Ferrari 599. I doubt Iceman is making it up when he says things like 'in the same league as a Cayman S'.