RS4 disappointments

[RacerBice]

Having read quite a lot now, here on RS6 in in numerous threads concerning the splendidness of the new RS4, I want to suggest a slightly provocative reality.

Audi have priced and marketed the RS4 as though they put a lot of money, engineering and other resources into creating a design with racing ambitions. Still, though, the RS4 weighs in at over 1700 kg, it has a weight-balance that is just awful for basically any sports car and its 420 BHP output is being questionned everywhere you look. Even looking at chassis development, you can't really see where the extra money went. All this boils down to the RS4 simply being nothing more than a tuned A4. And hey, that's not a bad thing. Just don't compare it with an M3, and in particular not with the CSL. Given that the RS4 is supposed to be a "brand new design" and have a power advantage of some 80 BHP, it really should blow already the regular M3 away. Which it doesn't.

RB

Ps. ....and those hideous air intakes in the front are just too much Riegler for my taste. So is the rear "diffusor".

[jasaretta]

THe last thing I would want to do is start an arguement here but I am not sure where you are getting your info from.

You my not like the air intakes and the "rear diffusor" but I guess that's just personal taste which is fine.

Personally I love them :)

I think we have seen enough examples of the RS4 taking good care of the current M3, and given that the chassis, brakes, gearbox, engine and every panel except the roof is different from the A4 I'm not sure how we can call it "nothing more than a tuned A4"?

Anyway - each to his own. Thanks for sharing your opinion. :0:

jas

[Vorsprung]

Racer Bice i am not sure what you are attempting to achieve out of your post, but my personal opinion is that much of what you have said is in fact subjective and inaccurate.

To say dont compare it with an M3, i agree, because the RS4 is a better car. If you have any doubts of the RS4's ability in comparison to the M3, please watch the 5th Gear episode and you will see for yourself. Performance wise, it is clear who is the winner. Should that not convince you, please compare Nurburgring times of the M3 (8:22) vs RS4 (8:09). RS4 has also shown in some tests to achieve times of 4.4 & 15.6 sec for the 0-100km/h & 0-200km/h respectively. Times no M3 has achieved!!

I dont think anyone should be comparing a 4-door all-rounder family saloon RS4 to a hardcore track car M3 CSL. Both were built for very different intentions. CSL is a track car that you should leave indoors when the rain comes down. RS4 is a sports-saloon which becomes even more exciting when the rain/snow comes down. Why are you comparing these 2 cars??

As for those "hideous air-intakes" as you say, personally its one of my favourite parts of the car and not unique to the B7 RS4. It was already introduced to the B5 RS4, and its one of many parts i love about this car as i did with the B5 RS4.

It seems you are an ///M fan, and that is great. I will stay an RS fan and i'm very impressed with the B7 RS4. Test results are showing this car not only to be blowing the e46 M3 away, but its actually competing with the likes of BMW's 5.0l V10 M5 & M6's!!

And as for price, well i'm not sure what global prices are like, but here in South Africa the RS4 has come in at a bargain really. Its cheaper than a C55 AMG and only marignally more expensive than what an e46 M3 sold for.

Fortunately each of us have our own opinions on this car, but if i look at the demand this car is getting out there, i think you are part of the minority and not the majority...:rs4addict

[Erik]

Competition is to hard nowadays to "blow" anyone away.

The RS4 is the first RS car to come out in a second generation.
How many generations of M3s are there? ;)

When you start looking into details, try making a RS4 out of your A4 and you'll understand it's impossible.
Read the Automobil review(issue 05.2006), it might change your mind. Or not.

If you don't like it - don't buy it!

[exE46M3]

Folks,

Don't mean to start any trouble, especially because I agree with everything said here - i.e. there's just no way any car enthusiast could ever be "disappointed" in the RS4 B7.

However, arguments like "the CSL is a hardcore track car" and "How many generations of M3s are there?" should be avoided IMHO. The first is just not accurate and the latter, well, is irrelevant. Especially when you look at the insane amount of R&D that goes into these cars.

[BigRick]

Hi everyone,

Just glad to see a thread about disappointments. Not that I'm disappointed but more because I'm a bit concern about my "future buy" I'm on a wait list since last august to get that car and in the last couple of weeks I've been reading more and more about this next "monster".

But here are a couple of things that I'm concern about:
1) Real Horse Power... Audi claims 420 (414 in some docs) but still, we see many people not absolutly sure about this claim. Many are getting their car to dynos to confirm...
2) American/Canadian version is much heavier (around 300lb)
3) The fact that the Canadian price is so high compared to US price. (66k USD compared to 94k CAD) this is surely not the exchange rate (1 USD ia bout .90 CAD right now)
4) We were all under the impression that this car was to be an M3 killer and when we look at the numbers we can agree that it does perform better but not to the level we were expecting. This is probably the biggest disappointment. (and I'm not even comparing to that CSL beast just a plain M3)
5) All the secrets (or maybe the unsaid) around the American/Canadian delivery and the removed equipment that was making this car so unique (streering, seats, start button)
6) We also all know that the American cars will probably suffer from anti-pollution system required here.

So at the end, is it still a must buy car?

Don't get me wrong, I'm an Audi Fan (with the big F) but I'm really getting concern about that buy. Maybe you can convince me that I should really get one.

Regards!

[M&M]

Jdude, I see even Audi fans are disappointed with the RS4. I don't know what you been watching but the RS4 didn't BLOW any M3 away. Even in the wet in the Topgear test. What did you think was gonna happen when a 420hp car with 4WD races a 340hp RWD car in damp. I expected more of course.

& 8:09 with Sports suspension, slicks & ceramic brakes is nothing to write home about.

[KK265]

This is also a good reason for not buying an RS4.....
http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=53934&sid=6e7455de910f469c73b0a75fecef296d
Dear exE46M3 in Greece it is impossible to travel in a CSL without air condition and if you do this you need to sleep for hours because of the noise..It is not a car for everyday and costs as a M5.Also there are a lot of M3 which are modifications of 316i or 320i and there is not an RS4 which is 1,8 turbo modification.
This is very important i think.

[Audihead]

I know now what everyone is trying to do. They are trying scare everyone away so they move up higher on the waiting list for the RS4. :D Well it's not gonna work with me. I take delivery in @ 7 weeks, and I'm going to enjoy the SH*T out of the car!:rs4addict
Seriously, if you don't like the car fine, don't buy it. But we really have had enough useless posts about these subjects. It's like beating a dead horse.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by M&M
Jdude, I see even Audi fans are disappointed with the RS4. I don't know what you been watching but the RS4 didn't BLOW any M3 away. Even in the wet in the Topgear test. What did you think was gonna happen when a 420hp car with 4WD races a 340hp RWD car in damp. I expected more of course.

& 8:09 with Sports suspension, slicks & ceramic brakes is nothing to write home about.

Explain to me what you think blow away means. Does it have to be one mile ahead for you M3 fans. It was comfortably beaten will we say, if this make you feel better.

Now I take it, all have seen the Topgear piece with the M3 and the S4, over a 1/2 mile run the M3 put a giant 2 car length on the S4, it comfortably beat it. On 5th Gear the RS4 over a 1/4 mile put 5-6 length on the M3, :harass: we will to help you save face and call it comfortably beaten. Now back to the Topgear bit, the S4 beat the M3 around the track by 0.9 seconds, this would amount to 3/4 of a car length. The RS4 won by 12 car lengths, :harass: the M3 was again to help you save face and call it comfortably beaten. I hope you see what I'am getting at.

I will always say this about the M3, it will always be more entertaining than Quattro, there is nothing better than drifting the tail, but if it's that is all you are in to buy an MX5 and save yourself a bucket of money. :bye2:

By the way the CSL runs on near slicks, not the RS4. The RS4 has more luxury items than the S4, which you can't say about the CSL and finally you can put wet goods in the RS4's boot, do the same in the CSL and in no time at all they have fallen through the floor, practical, I DON'T THINK SO.

[BigRick]

Originally posted by Audihead
I know now what everyone is trying to do. They are trying scare everyone away so they move up higher on the waiting list for the RS4. :D Well it's not gonna work with me. I take delivery in @ 7 weeks, and I'm going to enjoy the SH*T out of the car!:rs4addict
Seriously, if you don't like the car fine, don't buy it. But we really have had enough useless posts about these subjects. It's like beating a dead horse.

You got me wrong!

I'm not beating a dead horse... I'm trying to convince myself. In fact you could get one faster if you were to not convince me! I'm really concern about the american/canadian version. We are kept in the dark here and it's becoming annoying to not really know what we're buying.

So if you have real fact about the point I'm asking just let me know I'll be glad to read and learn.

As stated earlier I'm an Audi Fan but I'm worry about the overall product we will get on this side of the ocean.

Regards,

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by KK265
Dear exE46M3 in Greece it is impossible to travel in a CSL without air condition and if you do this you need to sleep for hours because of the noise.

KK,

Although AC and radio were options, many (if not most) CSL cars have them. Heck, 8:05 RS6's even has PDC!

As far as the "noise" goes, well, that comes with the territory, I guess. Remember, the CSL is a focused car.

Anyway, I don't see why it can't be used as one's main ride, but I digress. Maybe 8:05 RS6 will see this thread and will jump in to give us some feedback.

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by BigRick
We were all under the impression that this car was to be an M3 killer and when we look at the numbers we can agree that it does perform better but not to the level we were expecting. This is probably the biggest disappointment. (and I'm not even comparing to that CSL beast just a plain M3)

Well, it does outperform the M3. Let's take N'ring lap times as basis for comparison:

RS4 B7 - 8:09
M3 - 8:20

Shaving off 11 seconds is not an easy task... Especially as you get closer and closer to the magic 8:00 mark.

[Erik]

Originally posted by exE46M3
Maybe 8:05 RS6 will see this thread and will jump in to give us some feedback.

Just back from Nürburgring, he's now called 7:53 RS6 :hihi:

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9095

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by Erik
...he's now called 7:53 RS6 :hihi:[/url]

Very nice!

Gote, congrats!!! :race: :applause:

[BigRick]

Originally posted by exE46M3
Well, it does outperform the M3. Let's take N'ring lap times as basis for comparison:

RS4 B7 - 8:09
M3 - 8:20

Shaving off 11 seconds is not an easy task... Especially as you get closer and closer to the magic 8:00 mark.

Got that! and I agree :thumb:

But this is Euro RS4 numbers... my real problem is that we won't get that version here North America (or in my case North, North America).

Does any body has a real idea of what we will end up with here in America?

There's no doubt in my mind that the euro version is a formidable car. But read all my concerns and you will understand that I'm quite unconfortable with my 101k canadian version (94k + 7k for options) and again we don't have the actual real power the beast will be able to breath with our more restrictive "regulations".

[exE46M3]

BigRick,

I'd say you have nothing to worry about... Ok, strict(er) emission rules may get in the way. So, what? The car still kicks some major a**. If you like it, buy it! :thumb:

[Benman]

Originally posted by Audihead
I know now what everyone is trying to do. They are trying scare everyone away so they move up higher on the waiting list for the RS4. :D Well it's not gonna work with me. I take delivery in @ 7 weeks, and I'm going to enjoy the SH*T out of the car!:rs4addict
Seriously, if you don't like the car fine, don't buy it. But we really have had enough useless posts about these subjects. It's like beating a dead horse.

***checks to see if horse is really dead***

[BigRick]

Originally posted by exE46M3
BigRick,

I'd say you have nothing to worry about... Ok, strict(er) emission rules may get in the way. So, what? The car still kicks some major a**. If you like it, buy it! :thumb:

Thanks!

This is more the kind of reaction I was looking for... I didn't want to start a war again between BMWers and Audi Fans! :)

[7:53 RS6]

In my mind 8.09 is a very god time, in the thread in RS4 sections RS4 ring time i mentioned a guess at 8.08 for RS4.

Dont get me wrong i like all sportscars as most here know by now i guess. Saw a lot of new RS4 at ring just now and accually sat in on one driving wheirshifen, adenauer and ex-muhle sections, it pulls nice and the sound is great! Also saw new GT3, its like, i want one fast please!!!

Still i want to mention that E46 M3 ring time was on street tiers. If it was run on same compound that new RS4 it very likely run lower times. Hard to tell but for sure the tier change would likely shave of at least 5-10 seconds i guess.
As to my experience i cant say i can feel a higher grip level in cups vs corsas relly. These to r-compounds is used stock by focused car manufacturs and comes stock on relly nice diffrent sportscars, so im sure they are more or less the same god tiers. Whats known as a difrens on the to tiers are that the latest corsa asymetrico is better in wet due to its special trow of watter pattern. Michelins cup are now delivering a improved wet cup as well, if i rememberd right its called race.

As mentioned my CSL is i think comfort whit PDC, Clima control, and CD, as most CSL delived. This ad up in pork on it but its worth it, especally when hot. As im in city im in atomatic mode on transmison when on street and thats kind of comfy. If it dident have auto mode it would be stessfull in long run in city. As RS4 manyall also will be, im soiled whit the auto mod now on CSL.

CSL On track always esp off and hardest gearchange mode that slams in gears, nothing else. If compering the ride harshnes in city to a GT3 mk1 or mk11 its relly comfy. And i think its very overtalked that you cant run CSL in rain on cups, its no problems. As well you can drive in snow and its fun to, but nead propper allround tiers then. One importent factor that is forgoten many times is, its not the cars in them selves that go fast, its the driver that have to see to that. Just by having 600hp its not like you are atomatically fast on the ring for that matter, even its many relly high speed sections. The same goes for street just having awd is far from atomatacly out run rwd in rain as well, its as we all know always the driver that make the diffrens.

I want one RS4 Avant of cource:dance:

[tailpipe]

Ring times

BMW M3 E46: 8:20
Audi RS4 B7: 8:09

I think this is all the evidence you need that the RS4 comprehensively demolishes the M3. As has been correctly pointed out, the closer you get to the magic sub-8 minute mark at the Ring, the harder it becomes to shave seconds off. For this reason, I think 11 seconds isn't just significant, it's an eternity. If it were 3 seconds, then maybe you could say that the RS4 doesn't beat the M3 so completely.

But the most important reason why an RS4 is better than than an M3 has been missed by young RacerBice: on a track in dry sunny conditions, the RS4 manages to wallop the M3. But on a wet track in winter with ice and snow covering the tarmac, you'll be lucky to complete a lap in an M3, let alone put in a storming lap time. Give me an RS4 every time.

There are only two cars that come close to the RS4. One is the Porsche 911 Turbo, but look at the price differential. The other is another Audi: the RS6, but even it lacks the outright pace of the RS4.

To say that the RS4 is merely a tuned S4 is probably correct, but, hey, is that such a bad thing? Not when it delivers such usable performance 365 days per year.

(BTW The Porsche has the opposite problem: all the weight is focused at the back because the engine is behind the rear axle. Some people would actually say that having more weight concentrated over one axle is an adavantage in winter conditions, because it improves traction.)

[RacerBice]

Nice to see the reactions, and (as I hinted) my purpose was only to provoce you into thinking closer about it. Personally, I am not convinced by the numbers of the RS4. Semi-low 8's on the Ring are always impressive, but with identical tires, stock brakes etc, I think the margin to a regular M3 would in all likelihood be decidedly smaller. In the dry, yes, I am aware of that. In the wet, we would have a different story. But everyone here is analysing lap times for dry conditions as though to try and convince someone (themselves...?) of a splendidness that's simply not that evident to me.

I fear that once Münich launches its real RS4 rival, also with a V8 and with similar output, the RS4 is simply gonna be DESTROYED. And what if they fit the new M3 with AWD?!?! :MTM:

Again, don't get me wrong; I love the RS4 (but for the air-intakes and diffusor, which I would replace), but I STILL see it more as an Autobahn express and allround beast, although with slightly more sporty ambitions than we're used to seeing from Audi. Which makes me STILL prefer the RS4 to the M3. And by miles, too.

....he said, while thinking harder about buying the S8 instead..... :doh:

RB

Ps. Swedish magazine Teknikens Värld got only some 380-390 BHP (I think it was) out of the RS4. Of course, I'm not sure exactly how or under what conditions they did that test , but I'll have a look.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by RacerBice

I fear that once Münich launches its real RS4 rival, also with a V8 and with similar output, the RS4 is simply gonna be DESTROYED. And what if they fit the new M3 with AWD?!?! :MTM:


I'am a diehard Audi fan, but I agree that when the new M3 does arrive it will beat the RS4.

Destory is too strong of a word, I believe it will post a time of around 8:06 with stock tyres, drop this to 8:02 with the same as the RS4. The only way the times from either will drop greatly is if they both shed a lot of weight. The only reason the CSL did it time was on the near racing tyres which work better with heat, something the stock and less so corsa tyres do not. Heat loses grip and in a nose heavy car like the RS4 you will fighting understeer more and more towards the end of the lap.

Around the ring as I have said I agree to the new M3 will be quick, but and this is something most but not all BMW/M3 fans forget is, on the road the heat is never a problem and at such traction become the most important part and this is what the RS4 has by the bucket load, here is where the real war is won and lost and you will be backing the wrong horse if it's the M3.

Finally the E90 M3 is a new design only 2 years old, around 6 months after it will be the new A5/S5. Even if the S5 has only 375hp with it's new awd system and ASF chassis/body the tables will be turned and you will be looking at the real rival to the M3 or should I say.........." WHAT M3 ".

[Qisha]

Dear Friends,

a few new Options are available for all new RS4:

Ceramic Brake Option: 5.800 Euro
Black Optic Package: 590 Euro
Sport Suspension Plus: 650.00 Euro (-10mm, noticeable Stiffer)

At the moment it is not planed to bring these Options to the USA.

Sorry for that.

[Speedou]

It's quite funny read this topic. You can see how someone is watching with Audi (or BMW)-glasses on :cool2:

Anyway, still Audi and BMW are totally different. Of course it's fun to put them on same line, but I can't never think that way. Audi is fast, but not so much drivers car. On wet and snow Audi says goodbye to BMW...or does it? On straight sure, but on track...I'm not so sure. Do you remember that wet test where was S4 against M3? My point was only to bring up some points like if there is rwd and awd, you can't just say the awd is winner on wet. On snow I believe acceleration is so much better that it really can be clear win to awd (if the track is not only tight curves).

[Kram]

I will not comment about the comparison against the M3 on road use. To me it is crystal clear :rs4kiss:

But, regarding the tires, the Corsas do make difference, but the Michellin Cups are much much grippier.

In Interlagos (GP Track in Sao Paulo) the cups are 2 sec faster than corsas on 996C2 same day, same track, same driver. (1:55vs1:57)

SportAuto did a comparison and found the same with a GT3mk1 at Hockenheim.

And they found that at least the M6 would make same times with the regular contis in Nurburgring (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62313&highlight=sportauto (Here the story) )

[BigRick]

With all this discussions going on about M3 vs RS4 (and now new M3 vs RS4)

Can someone tell us what is the delivery date of that supposedly so nice new M3... I'm still waiting for RS4 to get to our borders and it's been available for a year (maybe more) in Europe.

So maybe comparing "new" M3 to RS4 is just unfair... imagine that the M3 is only available in 2 years. What a comparasion would worth in that case. You're comparing phantom to reality... in my opinion it's worth nothing. Why not compare new M3 with the upcoming R8 then? It's worth the same!

[M&M]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tailpipe
[B]Ring times

BMW M3 E46: 8:20
Audi RS4 B7: 8:09

I think this is all the evidence you need that the RS4 comprehensively demolishes the M3. [QUOTE]

Wow I guess you didn't do well at school.

RS4 has P Zero Corsa's, optional sports suspension + & optional ceramic brakes. Combined I bet that equals the 11 second difference.

And oh yeah, M3 was released in 2000 & ran on 2000 tyre technology. Autocar got 8:15 for an M3, so remember just changes in tyres every year can account for a few secs per lap.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by BigRick
With all this discussions going on about M3 vs RS4 (and now new M3 vs RS4)

Can someone tell us what is the delivery date of that supposedly so nice new M3... I'm still waiting for RS4 to get to our borders and it's been available for a year (maybe more) in Europe.

So maybe comparing "new" M3 to RS4 is just unfair... imagine that the M3 is only available in 2 years. What a comparasion would worth in that case. You're comparing phantom to reality... in my opinion it's worth nothing. Why not compare new M3 with the upcoming R8 then? It's worth the same!

New M3 is out this Autumn in the UK and the A5/S5 spring/summer '07. The 2 years was with how long the new 3 series has be out on sale compared to the A4 which is at the end of production. How can you compare the M3 to the R8, a car based on the Lamborghini Gallardo, the M3 will cost £40K+ and the R8 £65+ it's rival is the M6, and by that I mean only in straight line speed, not handling.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by M&M
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tailpipe
[B]Ring times

BMW M3 E46: 8:20
Audi RS4 B7: 8:09

I think this is all the evidence you need that the RS4 comprehensively demolishes the M3. [QUOTE]

Wow I guess you didn't do well at school.

RS4 has P Zero Corsa's, optional sports suspension + & optional ceramic brakes. Combined I bet that equals the 11 second difference.

And oh yeah, M3 was released in 2000 & ran on 2000 tyre technology. Autocar got 8:15 for an M3, so remember just changes in tyres every year can account for a few secs per lap.

By the way AUTOCAR is the most one sided car magazine in the world and thinks the sun shines out of BMW's tailpipe. :harass: It has been the only mag that has got a M3 to equal the times of a S4 in the wet. Please use a better mag to quote figures.

SportAuto did a comparison and found that at least the M6 would make same times with the regular contis in Nurburgring as it did with corsas.
(http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62313&highlight=sportauto )

[vasbli]

When I traded my E39 for the new RS4, i was more interested in the looks, the 4WD, the Avant possibility and the quality of the interior. I could have gone for the new M5 or wait for the new M3, but I liked the balance of qualities the car seems to offer on paper (never tried RS4 before) - not only you can enjoy some serious performance, but you can also drive safely your family in adverse weather conditions (i drive lots in snow).
Conclusion: i give the RS4 a try, if im disappointed I will trade it back for a Motorsport powered car

[BigRick]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
New M3 is out this Autumn in the UK and the A5/S5 spring/summer '07. The 2 years was with how long the new 3 series has be out on sale compared to the A4 which is at the end of production. How can you compare the M3 to the R8, a car based on the Lamborghini Gallardo, the M3 will cost £40K+ and the R8 £65+ it's rival is the M6, and by that I mean only in straight line speed, not handling.

I'm not comparing. My point was that we are currently comparing a real car with some up coming car. So why not compare two up coming cars at least they share something the fact that they are not on our roads.
I know they don't compare well :) I'm just bored of comparing RS4 to "air" or "vapor car".
In fact I'm probably bored of comparing at all. Some better like BMW their choice, some other better like Audi their choice too. No comparaison will make them change their mind. It's like my father is stronger than yours... Will this make you like my father more!?

And why ho why always comparing to M3 isn't there anything else? Maybe comparing 4 doors to 4 doors, awd to awd, rwd to rwd.... I think you got my point. I'm sure BMW has a car with 4 doors and awd... can it compare? Probably not (but I'm no expert)

ho! and this is really nothing against you. I really don't know anything about you :cheers:

[7:53 RS6]

So now Corsa is a bad tier, thats rubbis. Well that is nothing that serius sportscars makers have found out yet anyway. Corsa is stock on Ferrari CS, RS4, M6, GT3 RS even Gallardo SE. Dont you guys think that when producers of above cars is last fitting tiers on ther cars, dont you then think they relly do all they can to find a partner that deliver, it would be a shame to mock up above cars by throwing on tiers that dont preform, i think all above makers of cars do all they can to maximase all preforming bits, its not like the opposit. That would not happen.

I have never feelt any diffrens to talk about in gripleven betwen the cups and corsa. How many of you have? what ever is whriten. That do not say it could not be, but im sure its like even steven. Heck if you drive on the wrong tier presure whatever the tier its giving you slower times. But i have over the years fore sure feelt the big diffren betwen grip in street vs r-compund. Accualy at the ring a few days ago i did drive the best preforming(in grip) street tiers Nero in front on my CSL, sure the cups was on in back and that even makes the grip in front go even worse. But its a big, big diffrens to drive track whit street vs r-compund. R-compund vs R-coumpound is not that big diffrens if comperd, so stop blame the tiers and like that was the reason RS4 laped in 8.09. and not better! RS4 suffer from more complex issues than its tiers to preform better on the ring. As my selfe i think 8.09 is very god for RS4

We can all bee sure that its a biger diffrens in grip level between a street tier and a r-tier than it is between to high level r-tiers like cups vs corsa. So that would put soon 7 year old M3 in the more or les same range of time around the ring if it was driven whit same tiers like RS4.

RS4 on the other hand would never even get close to the CSL even if it was on cups. The tiers is importent to a cars laptime, but the basic constuction of the car is even more importent to get a fast lap, this constuction is not in RS4 yet, but they have done a very god job considering what they had to work whit.

[Leadfoot]

7:53RS6,

I take from you last post that you disagree with the post from Kram.

In Interlagos (GP Track in Sao Paulo) the cups are 2 sec faster than corsas on 996C2 same day, same track, same driver. (1:55vs1:57)

SportAuto did a comparison and found the same with a GT3mk1 at Hockenheim.

And they found that at least the M6 would make same times with the regular contis in Nurburgring (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62313&highlight=sportauto )

:idea:2 seconds over a 2 minute track multiplys up to 8seconds over a 8 minute track. That would put the CSL at around 8:00 for the ring on corsa. So there is difference between the tyres. By the way 8 minute would still be a great time.

The weight over the nose will always be the RS4's biggest problem on a long track because of the heat that will be built-up in the front tyres and the increasing amount of understeer. Something the new model will be addressing, so look out all you would-be rivals.:bye2:

Now if you agree with a 8:00 time for a CSL with corsas that would still put it 9 seconds ahead of a RS4, still sounds great the CSL is still the better car.

But if you look at it a different way, a heavy 4door saloon car was only 0.7 seconds a mile slower than a focused track based coupe which is the best part of 300+Kgs lighter. And there is more, the RS4 is even more a luxury wagon than the S4, it rides better than a A8 and for a average drive it is by far the easiest of the two to drive quickly, it will blow nearly all rwd cars in the rain, never mind the snow and you get it in an estate.

When you take all of the above in to consideration the RS4 is an amazing car which all Audi fans should be proud of.:rs4addict

[M&M]

7:53 it is great to hear the opinion of someone that has owned Audi RS cars, had driven cars with Corsa & cup tiers & has been around the Ring. I value your opinion over most other people that just blurt out 11 second difference at the ring is a "beating" when one car runs on Corsa's against a car running on 2000 technology in suspension & tyres.

Hell the M3 was probably on the 1st version of the PS1 or Contisport contact, I bet you rerun the M3 on the latest version of those SAME tyres & it will be 4-5 seconds faster. The latest PS2 has a much better asymmetrical design with larger blocks on the outside & sidewalls. Lots of things change from 2000 to 2006. I just mentioned one aspect which is street tyres. What about the RS4's braking system (besides the ceramics) & suspension? Is it fair to compare to 2000 brakes & suspension? Is 11 seconds really progress? Willl a B5 RS4 with Corsa's, sports suspension & ceramic brakes not beat the B7 RS4?

[Spada]

Just to say I own a b7 RS4 and I'm very happy with it. I assure you I am AT LEAST as concerned as any armchair car critic about the rumors of lacking horses and under-engeneering, but so far ALL hard evidence I'VE seen has shown it to be about as fast as I'd expect it with the claimed figures.

There will always be people who spend all their time trying to argue their point across on the internet for their own reasons, but if you really want to know about the car, simply go and testdrive one instead of listening to armchair critics (arguing either side). There's too much unscollicited advice and unfounded opinions floating around. I got quite swept up with it all and got anxious about my car's credentials before I got it, and even during the running-in period, but I'm happy. I've had an f40, a quattro s1, an m5 and numerous other drivers cars and personally, this is one of my favourite cars on the road ever. I love the way it looks, I love the way it feels, its real-world speed is just right for me, I even like the kind of attention it gets (had numerous discussions started by car enthusiasts, all nice guys)

It just comes down to taste. If you don't like the air intakes for the front brakes, buy a car you DO like the look of! Variety of taste makes everything way more interesting.

[BigRick]

Originally posted by Spada
Just to say I own a b7 RS4 and I'm very happy with it. I assure you I am AT LEAST as concerned as any armchair car critic about the rumors of lacking horses and under-engeneering, but so far ALL hard evidence I'VE seen has shown it to be about as fast as I'd expect it with the claimed figures.

There will always be people who spend all their time trying to argue their point across on the internet for their own reasons, but if you really want to know about the car, simply go and testdrive one instead of listening to armchair critics (arguing either side). There's too much unscollicited advice and unfounded opinions floating around. I got quite swept up with it all and got anxious about my car's credentials before I got it, and even during the running-in period, but I'm happy. I've had an f40, a quattro s1, an m5 and numerous other drivers cars and personally, this is one of my favourite cars on the road ever. I love the way it looks, I love the way it feels, its real-world speed is just right for me, I even like the kind of attention it gets (had numerous discussions started by car enthusiasts, all nice guys)

It just comes down to taste. If you don't like the air intakes for the front brakes, buy a car you DO like the look of! Variety of taste makes everything way more interesting.

At last!

Exactly the kind of post I wanted!:0:
What you discribe is exactly how I feel right now. All those supposedly (maybe they are) experts saying so much about the car that you just can't really know if it's worth the money or not.

The real problem is that we can't try it for our self right now it's not available and even when it will (in a short future) we won't be allowed in the cars since they are already sold. So before I can try mine I'll probably have to pay for it... ad since this is my first time buying a 100k (CAD) car I'm a bit cautious on my "investment"

But from what you're saying I should be plenty satisfied with my
:rs4addict

[tailpipe]

M&M

"Wow I guess you didn't do well at school.

RS4 has P Zero Corsa's, optional sports suspension + & optional ceramic brakes. Combined I bet that equals the 11 second difference.

And oh yeah, M3 was released in 2000 & ran on 2000 tyre technology. Autocar got 8:15 for an M3, so remember just changes in tyres every year can account for a few secs per lap."


Listen, Smartass, everyone tests their cars on the Ring with the best possible combination of tyres and suspension set-ups. Of course, the RS4's better than the M3; it's newer. Even accounting for tyres and ceramic brakes, 11 seconds is still quite a margin.

I'll now add real flames to the fire: most of the RS4s on the road now are not power-optimsed. Remember that Audi had problems with the engine overheating? Well, that problem is well and truly fixed. Whether they call the revised version, the RS4+ or just slip an improved regular RS4 version into showrooms, like BMW did with the M5 once they had cured an analogous problem, well then i'm hoping to see a Ring time that's much closer to 8 minutes dead.

Actually, my guess is that Audi WILL slip an upgraded RS4 into the mix soon after the next M3 makes its appearance, just to make sure they know who's boss.

But this isn't the point of my post anyway, what really matters to me is that the RS4's power is more usable than the M3's year round. I don't expect that to change when they introduce a new M3.

I've owned a number of BMWs including the last M3. it was a lethal car in certain road conditions. But then so are many similar cars with similar power and RWD. If you want safe performance, then it has to be an Audi.

[Kram]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
7:53RS6,

:idea:2 seconds over a 2 minute track multiplys up to 8seconds over a 8 minute track. That would put the CSL at around 8:00 for the ring on corsa. So there is difference between the tyres. By the way 8 minute would still be a great time.

The weight over the nose will always be the RS4's biggest problem on a long track because of the heat that will be built-up in the front tyres and the increasing amount of understeer. Something the new model will be addressing, so look out all you would-be rivals.:bye2:

Now if you agree with a 8:00 time for a CSL with corsas that would still put it 9 seconds ahead of a RS4, still sounds great the CSL is still the better car.

But if you look at it a different way, a heavy 4door saloon car was only 0.7 seconds a mile slower than a focused track based coupe which is the best part of 300+Kgs lighter. And there is more, the RS4 is even more a luxury wagon than the S4, it rides better than a A8 and for a average drive it is by far the easiest of the two to drive quickly, it will blow nearly all rwd cars in the rain, never mind the snow and you get it in an estate.

When you take all of the above in to consideration the RS4 is an amazing car which all Audi fans should be proud of.:rs4addict



Thank you!



I just would like to say that I never said that Corsas are bad. They are just not as track focused as Cups are. Just that.
I never driven in Nurburgring (yet) but at least in tracks that I know those tires make difference.

[Leadfoot]

Well said tailpipe.:0:

M&M, I don't hear you mouthing about how slow the M6 is with the same tyres and a healthy 90bhp more and less weight.

The CSL is a great car for one purpose and one purpose only, going around a track very, very quickly. The M3 is also a great car with one purpose to entertain and in the right hands a very quick car indeed. But like all M cars they are only good when the conditions are right, bright sunny day and bone dry roads.

But where I'am from, it rains half of the year and the other half it pisses down. So even though me S4 is a few seconds slower around the ring than a stock M3, when the weather's bad I haven't seen to many wanting to play. Where I'am from we call M3 the point and squirt cars. :harass: And lets not talk about when it snows.:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

When a focused sportscar company like Porsche see the benefits of AWD, why has BMW not seen the light. Maybe there's more to the black magic of performance AWD cars than meets the eye, at least for BMW anyway.

But M&M bitch all you like at the RS4, because we all know it will be short lived. The TT power for power will blow the 3 series coupe, the new A4 will eat the 3 series saloon and the R8 will pull the pants down of the M6 and all this will be done without the need for a single raindrop.:bye2:

God I hate it when I'am this good.

[Erik]

Sorry to interupt, but here's a commercial break sponsored by quattro GmbH.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3671980626772336360 :rs4addict :revs:

Keep the level...thanks!

[M&M]

Wow you guys are real believers in your bullshit hey? Now if you want to talk all weather this & safe or whatever then yeah I won't argue with you. Maybe a Camry with snow chains might suit you fine. Lucky for some people we live in areas with ZERO snow & very little rain.

In such a place & in light of the fact that we only get 1 shot at life, I like to live a little. Have some fun. But hey, to each his own.

[BigRick]

Originally posted by M&M
Wow you guys are real believers in your bullshit hey? Now if you want to talk all weather this & safe or whatever then yeah I won't argue with you. Maybe a Camry with snow chains might suit you fine. Lucky for some people we live in areas with ZERO snow & very little rain.

In such a place & in light of the fact that we only get 1 shot at life, I like to live a little. Have some fun. But hey, to each his own.

I'm new in here but the last couple of days following the thread were very informative!

I learn many things.
First the RS4 (you like it or not) is better than the current M3. All the numbers are in favours of the RS4 and this even on dry road.

There is a new M3 coming some time... but it still has to make it proof before we conclude to anything, so why talk about it... it's just speculation.

Most of the regions where those cars are to be sold DO receive rain and/or snow. An under those conditions an M3 wouldn't even risk his hood outside!

Next there's more than numbers to take into account and this is where the M3 is annihilated (I love that word).

We must admit that the M3 is 6-7 years old. But this is not Audi's fault, blame BMW.

BTW I'm still waiting for a 4 doors AWD competitor to the RS4 from BMW... (if there's such a thing) because until we can compare apples to apples, I'll stick to my choice which is the "biblically good" :rs4addict

Cheers :thumb:

[Benman]

Originally posted by Erik
Sorry to interupt, but here's a commercial break sponsored by quattro GmbH.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3671980626772336360 :rs4addict :revs:

Keep the level...thanks!

:applause: :applause:

Thanks for that (well needed) break.:thumb:

Ben:addict:

[clam]

This might be usefull in this thread. JC mentiones the RS4, while reviewing the lastest (and bestest) encarnation of the M3.

...
So, if you’re after a car of this type, what to do? Wait for the new M3? Dive in now and get a CS? Or go for the Audi RS 4? That’s a hard one. I’m sure the new M3 will be a thrilling car. But I’m also sure it’ll look like a big pile of dog sick, so we can discount that. That leaves us with the Audi and the CS.

And that gives us one of the most delicious choices in any corner of the motoring universe.

I’d have the Audi, for its engine. You might well go for the BMW, for its poise. And you know what? We’d both be winners.
...

full M3 CS review (http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-2177700_1,00.html)

The RS4 is handicaped by weight and weight balance. That's why it hasn't completely blown away the competition. That would be breaking the laws of physics. The fact that it does out-do them on almost every count, says a lot about the engineering behind the car. They've made a competitive sportscar from almost two metric tons of family saloon, with a V8 located in the front bumper. All while retaining a certain level of luxury. It's like bootcamp for engineers. Imagine what they'll achieve when they don't have to compensate for weight and weight balance. When the engine isn't fighting the AWD system for space.

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
But if you look at it a different way, a heavy 4door saloon car was only 0.7 seconds a mile slower than a focused track based coupe which is the best part of 300+Kgs lighter.

Did you conveniently forget to factor in the power difference (60HP) in favor of the RS4? :D

Anyway, I must respectfully disagree... Sure, the CSL is lighter, but not 300+Kg lighter... According to Audi UK, the RS4 B7 weighs in at 1,650Kg.

Also, while weight is important in a sports car, it's not everything... Here's why: power-to-weight ratio is the same for both cars - 3.9Kg/HP. ;)

So, may I suggest we look at it this way (the way it matters IMHO): the RS4 is 19 seconds slower than the CSL and 11 seconds faster the the M3 on street tires. :thumb:

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
...how slow the M6 is with the same tyres and a healthy 90bhp more and less weight.

Sorry, but I must, once again, disagree... The M6 is heavier than the RS4...

Leadfoot, don't get me wrong, but why is 8:09 such a great time for the lighter RS4, but a crappy one for the heavier M6? See, you have to look at the whole package, not only individual specs like power, weight, etc...

Derestricted, the M6 will lap the N'ring faster. Look at Hockenheim lap times... The M6 was a full second faster than the RS4... :thumb:


Originally posted by Leadfoot
When a focused sportscar company like Porsche see the benefits of AWD, why has BMW not seen the light.

Are the most visceral models (i.e. GT3, GT3RS, GT2) AWD? Nope, they're all RWD... You may disagree, but Motorsport is just staying true to the sports car formula. Why upset beatifully balanced cars by introducing AWD? Not sure when you registered, but one of the most knowledgeable users on this board (i.e. Nordschleife) used to say that BMWs will always be dinamically superior given Audi's current platforms. He also said (at least once) that Audi uses Quattro to offset (i.e. offset, not eliminate) some of the shortcomings imposed by such platforms.

PS: Nothing personal. Just keeping up a healthy debate. I'm a car guy just like you and if you read all my posts on this thread, you'll see that I do give credit where credit is due... :thumb:

[Erik]

Originally posted by exE46M3
Sorry, but I must, once again, disagree... The M6 is heavier than the RS4...

It is also more powerful.

Check the hp/kg.

[exE46M3]

Originally posted by Erik
It is also more powerful.

Check the hp/kg.

Oh, absolutely. I was just pointing out the fact that the M6 is not lighter than the RS4 B7... :thumb:

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by exE46M3
Oh, absolutely. I was just pointing out the fact that the M6 is not lighter than the RS4 B7... :thumb:

By the way, not one magazine has found the RS4 to be 1650kg, 1740kg is more like. This is what mags have found to be the weight of the M6.

So go suck eggs and check out your facts.:bye2:

[M&M]

Originally posted by BigRick


I learn many things.
First the RS4 (you like it or not) is better than the current M3. All the numbers are in favours of the RS4 and this even on dry road.



Ok then an M5 is BETTER than an RS4, and an S65 is BETTER than an M5, etc ...... You see a trend here? More power, more money, faster, BETTER according to you.


Originally posted by BigRick


Most of the regions where those cars are to be sold DO receive rain and/or snow. An under those conditions an M3 wouldn't even risk his hood outside!:

So you can drive an RS4 is deep snow with normal summer tyres?


Originally posted by BigRick


BTW I'm still waiting for a 4 doors AWD competitor to the RS4 from BMW... (if there's such a thing) because until we can compare apples to apples, I'll stick to my choice which is the "biblically good" :rs4addict

Cheers :thumb:

You do that, but a mere 4-door 3-series in the form of a 335i will beat the E46 M3 & run alongside an RS4 for a lot less money.

[Leadfoot]

M&M,

You have always missed the point of Audi cars and why all here rate them as the best.

The RS4 give all this luxury, rides this smooth and is this capable in all weather conditions and can still post a time of 8:09 the equal of a M6, all this with none of the compromises that all most all of it's rivals can not do.

The M3/M6 compromise on not having 4 doors, in the M6 not rear space and all weather useability. Evos and the likes compromise on the luxury and ride ability and the Mercedes compromise on the quality of it's interiors.

I left the M5 to last because it is possibly the closest any of the rivals get to matching the RS4, saloon & estate soon to come, but still it's compromised by it's inability to cope with bad weather.

All the above are the reasons why the RS4 is :king: until the new Audis arrive that is.

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
7:53RS6,

I take from you last post that you disagree with the post from Kram.

In Interlagos (GP Track in Sao Paulo) the cups are 2 sec faster than corsas on 996C2 same day, same track, same driver. (1:55vs1:57)

SportAuto did a comparison and found the same with a GT3mk1 at Hockenheim.

And they found that at least the M6 would make same times with the regular contis in Nurburgring (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62313&highlight=sportauto )

:idea:2 seconds over a 2 minute track multiplys up to 8seconds over a 8 minute track. That would put the CSL at around 8:00 for the ring on corsa. So there is difference between the tyres. By the way 8 minute would still be a great time.

The weight over the nose will always be the RS4's biggest problem on a long track because of the heat that will be built-up in the front tyres and the increasing amount of understeer. Something the new model will be addressing, so look out all you would-be rivals.:bye2:

Now if you agree with a 8:00 time for a CSL with corsas that would still put it 9 seconds ahead of a RS4, still sounds great the CSL is still the better car.

But if you look at it a different way, a heavy 4door saloon car was only 0.7 seconds a mile slower than a focused track based coupe which is the best part of 300+Kgs lighter. And there is more, the RS4 is even more a luxury wagon than the S4, it rides better than a A8 and for a average drive it is by far the easiest of the two to drive quickly, it will blow nearly all rwd cars in the rain, never mind the snow and you get it in an estate.

When you take all of the above in to consideration the RS4 is an amazing car which all Audi fans should be proud of.:rs4addict
Sorry this matematics do not ad up this way at the ring, it not that you can take the diffrens at interlagos and just translate it to the ring, i guess you not driven ther. If you had you would know why it dont ad up like that.

[M&M]

So it seems the big deal here is all weather ability. Luxury & whatever everyone has. Lucky some people live in a region where one doesn't need to compromise by lugging around a quattro drivetrain when you have summer weather allyear round.

But I have a question. Do you just drive your RS4 in snow with summer tyres? How does it work? DO RWD people all over the world have other cars in winter. I don't know so I'm just asking.

[Erik]

Originally posted by M&M
Do you just drive your RS4 in snow with summer tyres? How does it work?

Actually it works all to well. I have tested on ice and in deep snow, and the acceleration is scary.
When it comes to braking and turning the AWD is a drawback because it weighs more. Then it's scary in the opposite way.

M&M, if you don't like AWDs, don't buy them.

[RacerBice]

Originally posted by BigRick


And why ho why always comparing to M3 isn't there anything else? Maybe comparing 4 doors to 4 doors, awd to awd, rwd to rwd.... I think you got my point. I'm sure BMW has a car with 4 doors and awd... can it compare? Probably not (but I'm no expert)



Well....simply because everyone is discussing race-track performance and because the M3 is commonly recognised as THE race alternative amongst "affordable" cars for every-day use. Fair enough...?

RB

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by 7:53 RS6
Sorry this matematics do not ad up this way at the ring, it not that you can take the diffrens at interlagos and just translate it to the ring, i guess you not driven ther. If you had you would know why it dont ad up like that.

M&M and 7:53RS6,

Sorry for stating double standards. Both you feel that if the M3 had the same tyres and brakes as the RS4, it would post a similar time, a jump of 11seconds. Why can it work one way for the M3 to get quicker, but when I stated losing the cup tyres the on the CSL and getting slower by 8seconds, you feel this wouldn't happen.

You make a big thing about the tyres and brakes when it suits. Explain why you think it doesn't make such a difference from cup to corsa tyres on the ring, but will on other track, after all grip is grip how ever you look at it. If you feel the ring is a less demanding track on tyres then should this not include the difference between corsa and stock tyres and should the same not apply the brakes as well.

Why don't you admit that the RS4 is a leap forward from the M3, and we will all say and rightly so that the CSL is a better car on the track than the RS4.

And we can all put our pet hates for each other's brands to bed, period.:cheers:

[RacerBice]

[i] All those supposedly (maybe they are) experts saying so much about the car that you just can't really know if it's worth the money or not.
[/B]

I'm convinced it's worth every buck, even more so after a brief test-drive. And with my slightly limited abilities as a race-driver, I myself would be setting the limits to lap-times rather than the car. But for those of you who really know how to put this thing to the test, I am hesitating as to whether or not there are faster cars for the same money. On a dry track, that is. In any other situation, I fail to see any car out-performning the RS4 in terms of design, quality feel, performance, grip, balance and image. At least this side of the 1 MEUR mark...

[RacerBice]

The only problem with the M5 and M6 is that they both look like C.R.A.P!!!:w:

[BigRick]

Originally posted by M&M
Ok then an M5 is BETTER than an RS4, and an S65 is BETTER than an M5, etc ...... You see a trend here? More power, more money, faster, BETTER according to you.



So you can drive an RS4 is deep snow with normal summer tyres?



You do that, but a mere 4-door 3-series in the form of a 335i will beat the E46 M3 & run alongside an RS4 for a lot less money.

I'm not the one who started the comparaisons. I'm just telling you that M3 is now outdated and the RS4 is an better overall car. You're the one who's always coming back with M3.

No we don't drive with summer tires. But an M3 with winter tires can't even make it in front of an old S4 (tried it a couple of times before and it doesn't happen) so forget about getting in front of an RS4.

Haa! Come on... 335i running alongside and RS4 let me laught :dance: . Do you really think what you're saying? But I'm willing to hear your arguments. I even think you could take a 550i if you want and still end way behind! but at least I would be giving you some credit for trying. And at last you would be comparing two 4 doors.

Or you can continue to compare M3 to RS4 (focus car to unfocus car) And I'll continue to disagree.

Maybe the reality is that Audi has no compitor to M3 and BMW has no compititor to RS4... that would explain why so many are trying to compare them! Don't you think?

[CarbonFibre]

Originally posted by M&M
So it seems the big deal here is all weather ability. Luxury & whatever everyone has. Lucky some people live in a region where one doesn't need to compromise by lugging around a quattro drivetrain when you have summer weather allyear round.

But I have a question. Do you just drive your RS4 in snow with summer tyres? How does it work? DO RWD people all over the world have other cars in winter. I don't know so I'm just asking.
Even in an AWD car, using summer tires on ice or snow is not smart. My car is AWD, and is bad enough in the wet if I push it. Most people with AWD cars that live in places where temperature and weather vary a lot over a year have two sets of tires, usually a set a wheels for each as well.

[steve]

For me the comparison between an RS4 and M3 remains semi-pointless. The M3 is a 2door / 2 person sportscoupé. The RS4 has room for 5 and all their luggage. Certainly in the Avant version i'd take.
The RS4 is a perfect holiday car for the entire family. I don't see that happening with an M3. That's the difference. The RS4 has all what the M3 offers, plus the extra space (and quattro :p )

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by steve
For me the comparison between an RS4 and M3 remains semi-pointless. The M3 is a 2door / 2 person sportscoupé. The RS4 has room for 5 and all their luggage. Certainly in the Avant version i'd take.
The RS4 is a perfect holiday car for the entire family. I don't see that happening with an M3. That's the difference. The RS4 has all what the M3 offers, plus the extra space (and quattro :p )

Steve,

Read may last two post and you will see I am basically saying the same thing.

At the start of this post we were all saying how good the time was, but it didn't take too long before the BWM d**ks to bring up the M3 into the mix.

[EKaru]

M&M is going about his usual trolling... He's been a pest on the benz forums..

http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65738
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88858
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82833
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=85230
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88754

etc etc etc

[Benman]

Originally posted by EKaru
M&M is going about his usual trolling... He's been a pest on the benz forums..

http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65738
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88858
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82833
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=85230
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88754

etc etc etc

Interesting...


Ben:addict:

[Benman]

Oh My Goodness!!! I just found out why M&M has so much to prove! I just found his picture!

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
M&M and 7:53RS6,

Sorry for stating double standards. Both you feel that if the M3 had the same tyres and brakes as the RS4, it would post a similar time, a jump of 11seconds. Why can it work one way for the M3 to get quicker, but when I stated losing the cup tyres the on the CSL and getting slower by 8seconds, you feel this wouldn't happen.

You make a big thing about the tyres and brakes when it suits. Explain why you think it doesn't make such a difference from cup to corsa tyres on the ring, but will on other track, after all grip is grip how ever you look at it. If you feel the ring is a less demanding track on tyres then should this not include the difference between corsa and stock tyres and should the same not apply the brakes as well.

Why don't you admit that the RS4 is a leap forward from the M3, and we will all say and rightly so that the CSL is a better car on the track than the RS4.

And we can all put our pet hates for each other's brands to bed, period.:cheers:

Well those that seen my post over the years know i like all sports cars even RS4, those on the bord been here some know im far from a brand lover, i love all and drive all. Im just not into your way of calculate math on the ring. You have to understand that the diffrens between street tiers and r-tiers is big.!
M3 was on street tiers thats why it would produce better times if it also was on r-tiers corsa like the RS4.

And this is why M3 would have shaved of 5-10 sec about this figure, not exact. Now there is no way in the world its as big of a diffrens in grip leven between r-tiers and r-tiers like it is between street and r-tiers. This is a fact.
My intentions is far from baising some car, this is facts as we know it:thumb:

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by 7:53 RS6
Well those that seen my post over the years know i like all sports cars even RS4, those on the bord been here some know im far from a brand lover, i love all and drive all. Im just not into your way of calculate math on the ring. You have to understand that the diffrens between street tiers and r-tiers is big.!
M3 was on street tiers thats why it would produce better times if it also was on r-tiers corsa like the RS4.

And this is why M3 would have shaved of 5-10 sec about this figure, not exact. Now there is no way in the world its as big of a diffrens in grip leven between r-tiers and r-tiers like it is between street and r-tiers. This is a fact.
My intentions is far from baising some car, this is facts as we know it:thumb:

You are dodging the question, do you disagree with the fact that there is a difference in grip between the cup and the corsa tyres, because after looking on the web, there is a hell of a difference in the price.

Hell I have trackday at Rockingham when there was 6 M3s and 6 Z4 2.5Ls on the handling course and us lucky ones in the Z4s walk all over the M3, and you are making the M3 to be the equal of any Audi let alone the RS4, grow up and come out of the dark and into the real world.

I'am sorry to say it but not one post I have read seem to the writing on an unbiased car fans, to be truthful it's more the writing of a fiction novelist, who is the equal to Dan Brown.:bye2:

[Benman]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
who is the equal to Dan Brown.:bye2:

What! This is a news flash to me! Here I was under the impression Dan Brown only wrote true history!

Ben:addict:

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by Benman
What! This is a news flash to me! Here I was under the impression Dan Brown only wrote true history!

Ben:addict:
:applause: :applause::applause:

Ben,

What I mean to say is Dan Brown writes the true, in the same way as M&M and 7:53RS6 does. By the way loved the photo:harass: I'am amazed he has enough neck muscles to take the corners at speed.

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
You are dodging the question, do you disagree with the fact that there is a difference in grip between the cup and the corsa tyres, because after looking on the web, there is a hell of a difference in the price.

Hell I have trackday at Rockingham when there was 6 M3s and 6 Z4 2.5Ls on the handling course and us lucky ones in the Z4s walk all over the M3, and you are making the M3 to be the equal of any Audi let alone the RS4, grow up and come out of the dark and into the real world.

I'am sorry to say it but not one post I have read seem to the writing on an unbiased car fans, to be truthful it's more the writing of a fiction novelist, who is the equal to Dan Brown.:bye2:
Yes i would say the diffrens betwin corsa and cups are minimal on the ring! Very much Smaller than the diffrens betwen any r-compound vs street compund!, especally in the ring the diffrens betwen to diffrent r-compound is very small due to its a very fast track and you are not pulling so high G there comperd to other slower tracks, the same go whit street tiers vs street tiers on the ring not that big diffrens. Its mostly stagith on thru the many, many bends, but there are some nasty slow one.
But you semes to not undertand that the diffrens is huge between r-c vs street -c! As you seem to not undersand this matter it clearly shows, and in the way you speak...walk all over, that is not a mature whrithing. What do that show, that its not the cars alone that are fast, its the driver that is or is not. And your story tells just that the driver in the other cars was not as fast when it came to driving, thats hardly the cars fault.

The Audi A4 Avant disel i drove just now at the ring, and i did pass many faster cars whit it in my 9.30 BTG min laps, but no wher in the world i would imagin that this A4 Avant disel is faster than the many superior cars i did pass, im just faster driver. On track its all about the driver especally on the ring why dont you go ther and see for your selvf. In my CSL i lap in 7,53,5 BTG in these laps i pass many supercars at place that are on the paper faster, never do i think my car is faster, its me driving faster than the guy driving the carrera GT Carrera GT is faster on paper. As well as M3 are faster than Z4, but sure a driver can make things happen, especally if the wrong driver is in M3 or the carrera GT.
The ring is the only track in the world that you can do pretty god whit street tiers as it so fast, on shorter slow track its a pain on street, but not on the ring accually. But even here it helps some if in r-tiers. Heck even the old RS4 avant do 8.25 in street tiers im eqally sure like in the M3 case, that if old RS4 is laped whit r-compound it also would shave of 5-10 or thereabouts!! Whats so hard to get?

RS4 is suffering from other critcal thing, in the end the tiers cant make it better or faster than it is in its structure. This is notting to do whit fiction or liking Audi or not, its facts. Audi have as i said befor made it very god if you think on what they had to work whit. Hope that i dont nead to tell you the fysik about Audis main problems in the ground constuction, you should now about it, we all do. As i said its god for other things than track, and thats as well wher iam using them as well on tracks some times, but its not communicating so well there. Still i like em i had sevral RS4/RS6 and S audis, so belive me i know, they are not talking back to you on track as other sports cars do!! Thats period and no fiction. There might be a day for that to happen, they are on their way now whit new RS4, not there yet but maybee soon.

[Benman]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
:applause: :applause::applause:

Ben,

What I mean to say is Dan Brown writes the true, in the same way as M&M and 7:53RS6 does. By the way loved the photo:harass: I'am amazed he has enough neck muscles to take the corners at speed. :D:D



Whoah, whoah, whoah... one thing. I personally have met Mr. Gaute (7:53RS6 [he'll always be Gote to me;) ) and can vouch for him being Class A. Please don't lump him in with "guys" like M&M.

Gote has owned an RS 6, loved his RS 6 and will one day own another Hi Po Audi.:thumb: He prefers his CSL as it is a more focused/better track car (which even I admit). He loves all things automotive whereas "M&M" seems only to "love" starting crap on other people's forums (which might I add is someone else's Property!!!)

Back to "M&M", if you have a stranger come over to YOUR house and then proceed to talk smack about all of YOUR things and insult YOUR taste, how long would it be before YOUR foot was kicking HIS ass out of your home?!? :D

For me, not long. M&M, please find someone who cares about you...maybe a parent or something...


Ben:addict:

[Rstr]

Originally posted by Benman
:D:D



For me, not long. M&M, please find someone who cares about you...maybe a parent or something...


Ben:addict:

If he looks like that maybe he has bigger problems -- like getting laid. :hihi:

[steve]

Guys, how about simply ignoring him. Then he doesn't get the kick out of it, which he needs so badly.

And you all know what happens when you lower yourself to such guys level....they beat you with their experience!

[exE46M3]

Leadfoot,

I think you're overreacting a bit... Why resort to name calling? Chill out!

7:53 RS6 is a true enthusiast. Everybody here knows that. Why do you think RS6 is part of his alias? If I remember right he had at least 2 RS cars and has said many times he'd love to have an RS4 B7 in Avant form...

I mean, c'mon... 7:53 RS6 is one guy who's spent more time at Nürburgring than all other users here put together. So, until you manage to beat his time driving whatever the heck you may please, I think you could at least show him some respect.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I hang out here because I may well end up buying another Audi at some point (they're good bang for the buck in the US) and enjoy reading what some people have to say (7:53 RS6, Erik, Tailpipe just to name a few), but unfortunately blind cheerleading is the game being played here... Go hang out at the M5board when you get a chance and you'll see the kind of reaction Erik gets when he posts Audi related stuff: "Makes you look forward to the RS6", "The European version's seats impress me", "Very nice"...

BTW, read the whole thread again. You'll see the words "M3" and "CSL" being thrown in the mix from the get go. This thread has been conceived that way. It's not like BMW fans brought them up.

Later.

[Speedou]

I didn't bother my self by reading all the post, but I would love to see time for the M3 which you can by now. So there you have different brakes and etc. Just put r-tyres and test it.

To me the 5thGears test showed all I need to know. M3 is still for me and RS4 is best drivers Audi ever...

[Leadfoot]

Sorry to 7:53RS6 for the bitching, something I take it to personal.

When you have someone in the family who has a M3 and the arguement that start between us because of this, it's hard to seperate this when I get on the web. As I have already said I rate the CSL a hell of a car and a better track biased car than the RS4, hell there loads that are better. And as I have already said that not the point of why we all cheered when the time was posted in the group, when you take in to acount all the added qualities the RS4, all weather performance, 4door practicality, the quality of the ride and it still can post a time on par with a M6 and close to a 997 Carerra S with said brakes, it bugs me when people knock what is a cracker car and a real achievement by Audi for what is a nose heavy family saloon.

No I haven't been to the ring, hopefully when I lift me nexted car from the factory I will get the opportunity. And then agree with all who rate it the best track in the world. I come from a karting and rallying background and understand the skills the are required and the right choice of tyres. I personally rate karting one of the hardest forms of motorsport, muck up one corner and the pack gobble you up.

When I refered to the trackday with the M3s and the Z4s. One of the drivers with me was said person who has the M3, who has done karting with me and posted times within a tenth of mine. He was also one of the people I walk over in a Z4. By the way he has order a Z4M Coupe because of this. I wonder what time it will post but that's another story.

From now on I will try a direct my anger else where.:0:

[M&M]

Benman, I haven't been talking smack. My opinion is that the RS4 hasn't moved the game on. And it seems some Audi fans agree with me.

If you guys want to get personal then it means I win the battle. The title of the topic is "RS4 disappoints" & I'm just discussing that.

[Audihead]

This thread is getting way off topic. If it continues, I will shut it down. Please get back on topic, thanx.:rs4addict

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by Audihead
This thread is getting way off topic. If it continues, I will shut it down. Please get back on topic, thanx.:rs4addict

Please, shut it down.:bow:

[RacerBice]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
. And as I have already said that not the point of why we all cheered when the time was posted in the group, when you take in to acount all the added qualities the RS4, all weather performance, 4door practicality, the quality of the ride and it still can post a time on par with a M6 and close to a 997 Carerra S with said brakes, it bugs me when people knock what is a cracker car and a real achievement by Audi for what is a nose heavy family saloon.


Point taken....and a good one it was, too. :0:

[BryanF]

Who cares what other people think.

I spend my money on things that I like.

And thats an RS4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BigRick]

Originally posted by Audihead
This thread is getting way off topic. If it continues, I will shut it down. Please get back on topic, thanx.:rs4addict

I agree, off topic we are. At first we wanted to chalenge some of the disappointments and now it's a war about tires types, track times and apples to oranges comparaison!

So unless we get back to talk about the RS4 and stop the number war I vote for a shutdown.

Just for the record there are threads about M3 vs RS4 this one was about disappointments. Sorry we couldn't really get to the bottom of this topic.

[Audihead]

O.K. Locked down.:0: