RS4 Not as fast as I remember

[MR USER]

Hallo everyone,
I recieved my RS4 yesterday and I have some thoughts that I wanted to share in the best Audi forum I know!

In August last year I went with some other lucky guys to Barcellone on the Circuto de Catalunya to try the pre production RS4 sedan on an Audi Driving Experience Event. Well as you might have heard it was fantastic.
Very well organised, beautiful sourrandings, really nice people and the cars were breath taking.

In november I went Again on the Nordschleife and I had the same feelings (I was only a passenger back then).

Two days ago i went to to the Nordschleife but with BMW Fahrer Training on the M3 (E36) and It was very nice I must say but I knew that the best of it all was yet to come.... The delivery of my new RS4 the day after I came back from the most demanding course on earth. I thought well well I had fun with the BMW toy let's play with a real driving machine now.

I set in and when I pushed the button the stupid grin was glued on my face... wait patiently to warm my baby up wait for the ol to reach temperature and here we go blasting the turns of the Mt. Blanc.
Riding through the tunnel and reached Italy for a series of really high speed cornering on the motorway.
This car is so much fun. I reach my destination.

Yesterday when I went to sleep I was thinking of the previous experiences and I realised that the car is not as fast as I expected. I mean 420 horses in the hood should pull like mad... but they are not! well not as much I thought they did. Not that much more (if any) than the M3.

Does the engine need to get loose? will it improve with time? or should I bring it to the dyno and see if is up to the spec Audi declares?

One more thing It drinks fuel like i breathe air! but is worth every penny you are willing to pay when the revs reach 6-7k.

Like Clarkson said in his review "it screams like a wounded tiger"

[Speedou]

Argh, how many km / miles do you have? Arey you really pushing a new car to it limits :confused:

And you have to remember, your "feelings" don't tell how fast the car is. Clock or race will tell. So put your car against a clock or race one M3.

[7:53 RS6]

AMS saying RS4 only has 349hp on wheels, and that this is a lost of power on 17% which they think is way to much. Lost of tourq is 13% at wheels. To sum it up they mean it could never be 420hp in engine. They also say it cut by 8050 rpm in test which is 200 rpm before whats stated. Its a manual awd so RS4 is in AMS words in doubt aproved in this rotortest.

An other serius mag in Sweden is Automobile and the are relly impresed how fast RS4 starts 0-100km. As well as RS4 got a pretty god result al in al. They got a special A- sprint as it called where driven thru cones on a straight line and a wide turning point and back again RS4 was here a faster than M3.

( 54,5 RS4 and M3 56, Porsche Carrera S 53,2)

Whats inresting to know is that RS4 have relly agressive camber settings stock. Front camber is - 1,8 and rear is - 2,5. Toe in front 1,0 mm rear toe in 4,0 mm. This helps a lot, not even CSL have so agressive settings stock, accually you cant set a CSL like this stock. Mine CSL is -3 in front and -2 in rear, due to camber plates in front adjustebel as well caster. And adustebel in rear as well whit uniball.

[MR USER]

I really enjoyed the car this week end and the engine is getting a litle bette, not as much as I hope so but.. I have now done 1200km and most of it on high regime, I had to put in a kg of motor oil so far ( I guess that with the new engine is normal as Audi gave it to me and told me to keep it cheked regularly).

Now the bad news. A m**** f****** biker with his Yamaha R6 had the brilliant idea of smashing into my boot :vgrumpy: :vgrumpy: :vgrumpy:

Nobody got injured

I blew the glass and damaged most of the rear... I bet it will cost him a lot. I will go to the dealer to see how bad is it tomorrow... Booooooo my baby was just 2 days old!!! I am so sad

[MR USER]

Ahh I almost forgot.. I will go to the dyno in 2 weeks (reparation permitting) and if it is less than 380 I will write to Audi.

[JavierNuvolari]

damn! talk about bad luck, only 2 days and some jackass smashes your ride...hopefully you'll car will be good as new in no time :) .BTW good luck with the dyno, keep us up to date on that one mate.


Saludos,


Javier

[jasaretta]

Originally posted by MR USER

Now the bad news. A m**** f****** biker with his Yamaha R6 had the brilliant idea of smashing into my boot :vgrumpy: :vgrumpy: :vgrumpy:

Nobody got injured

I blew the glass and damaged most of the rear... I bet it will cost him a lot. I will go to the dealer to see how bad is it tomorrow... Booooooo my baby was just 2 days old!!! I am so sad

Man I am really sorry to hear that. Glad nobody got hurt.

jas

[Benman]

Originally posted by MR USER
I really enjoyed the car this week end and the engine is getting a litle bette, not as much as I hope so but.. I have now done 1200km and most of it on high regime...

:( No wonder the car doesn't feel that quick! Its not even broken in yet!!! In the US, proper break in is 1500 MILES let alone KM!!! Running a new engine at "most of it on high regime" is asking for engine trouble down the line! Once the car is properly broken in, it will be much quicker, however, if you skip that...

On the accident note, that sucks MAJOR! Sorry to hear!

Ben:addict:

[IulianUM]

Sorry to hear about the accident , a brand new car :w: .

By the way in a Spanish magazine they say that the RS4 has 410,7 HP at 7540rpm and 45,6mkg torque at 5070rpm (officialy 43,9mkg at 5500rpm) , ignition cut at 8200rpm. I don´t know how accurate is this mag. :mech:

Take it easy you will be :incar: soon.

[KK265]

Originally posted by IulianUM
Sorry to hear about the accident , a brand new car :w: .

By the way in a Spanish magazine they say that the RS4 has 410,7 HP at 7540rpm and 45,6mkg torque at 5070rpm (officialy 43,9mkg at 5500rpm) , ignition cut at 8200rpm. I don´t know how accurate is this mag. :mech:

Take it easy you will be :incar: soon.

Is there any scan of this magazine?

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by MR USER
I really enjoyed the car this week end and the engine is getting a litle bette, not as much as I hope so but.. I have now done 1200km and most of it on high regime, I had to put in a kg of motor oil so far ( I guess that with the new engine is normal as Audi gave it to me and told me to keep it cheked regularly).

Now the bad news. A m**** f****** biker with his Yamaha R6 had the brilliant idea of smashing into my boot :vgrumpy: :vgrumpy: :vgrumpy:

Nobody got injured

I blew the glass and damaged most of the rear... I bet it will cost him a lot. I will go to the dealer to see how bad is it tomorrow... Booooooo my baby was just 2 days old!!! I am so sad

If unlycky you have to all time check engin oil in new RS4. It could suffer from insufficant lubrication. Especally if you have the car well under pressure, at track or relly inspierd street driving etc.

[IulianUM]

The scanner is broken , this is the best I can do . :mech:
Hope you can see it. :asian:

[clam]

There is no logical or factual reason why an engine would get better over time. The cilinder rings set during the first 20miles. The harder you push the engine, the better they will grind against the cilinderwall, and the better they will seal. But after the first 20 miles the cilinder wall becomes smooth, and the seals can't grind into shape anymore.
Aside from the rings, there is nothing in an engine that needs to be 'driven into shape'. If something doesn't fit, you can drive a million miles, it still won't fit.

So the correct brake in, that raceteams and upmarket manufacturers use, is letting the engine warm up, then create as much pressure as possible in the cumbustion chamber, which will push the cilinders rings (who work with the pressure of the chamer) against the cilinder walls. In between opening the throttle, they let the engine rpms slow down on their own (no braking), so the oil can clean away the metal grindings from the rings. It's best to change the oil and filter immediatly after the first 20 miles, and frequently during the first few thousand miles. B/c the rings will leave metal grindings in the engine. Also during the first few thousand miles, use fossile oil, instead of synthetic. Synthetic oil is too smooth, and will work against the grinding. After you're sure there is no more metal in the oil, you can use the smoother synthetic oil.

If you really feel your car has a power deficit, you should have it looked at. If there is a problem, it's not going to heal itself.

[Speedou]

Finnish magazine makes a lot of 60 000km tests for cars. First they test a car at something like 1000km and again after 60 000km. Almost all the cars are faster after 60 000km. So something there happens :0:

[clam]

Originally posted by Speedou
Finnish magazine makes a lot of 60 000km tests for cars. First they test a car at something like 1000km and again after 60 000km. Almost all the cars are faster after 60 000km. So something there happens :0:

Then I wonder why racing teams rebuild their engines every race, instead of letting them gain power over time, like a fine wine. Engines will actually lose power over time b/c of wear and tear. That's why engines get rebuild. There is no reason why an engine would become more effecient as it runs. Do the valves open/close better? Do the pistons slide better? Does the oil circulate better? Does the injection inject more precise? Is less energy lost trough heat exchange? What exactly happens, if an engine is supposed to get better over time? What part of the engine starts doing its job better after a few thousand miles?
I very much question the science of this magazine. If they are comparing it to official times, then they are dealing with understated numbers. If not, then one or more of their parameters are off. Different driver skill, amount of fuel a.o. weight on board, tyres (Now these do need to be broken in, and can make a big difference. So to perform the test correctly the car would need to be fitted with 1000km tyres at the 60.000km test.),... They could just be lying, b/c they'd rather support a myth that is common believe, than make the effort, and take the risk, to enlighten their readers.

The thing that needs an easy brake in, and gets faster over time, is the organic bit of software behind the steering wheel. And that's the reason why the easy break in comes recommended from the factory, even though their racing devision uses the hard brake in. The first thing that Lamborghini does when they finnish a car, is hand the keys over to a test driver, who races the new machine up and down the Sant'Agate countryside. If I'm not mistaken, Ferrari has a private track next to its factory for the same purpose, as does Porsche. So when their manuals say you need to take it easy at first, it's for your sake, not the engine's. It's not bad advice, but it won't make your car faster.

[Speedou]

Argh, I won't start fighting about this, but the magazine makes all the tests with same driver (I mean same driver / car) and weight. Only difference can be on tires, but many of the cars are so slow (normal family cars) that it really can't be the point. I see your point, but I still believe there happen something. Let it be my problem :thumb:

[Bauer]

Originally posted by clam
Then I wonder why racing teams rebuild their engines every race, instead of letting them gain power over time, like a fine wine. Engines will actually lose power over time b/c of wear and tear. That's why engines get rebuild. There is no reason why an engine would become more effecient as it runs. Do the valves open/close better? Do the pistons slide better? Does the oil circulate better? Does the injection inject more precise? Is less energy lost trough heat exchange? What exactly happens, if an engine is supposed to get better over time? What part of the engine starts doing its job better after a few thousand miles?
I very much question the science of this magazine. If they are comparing it to official times, then they are dealing with understated numbers. If not, then one or more of their parameters are off. Different driver skill, amount of fuel a.o. weight on board, tyres (Now these do need to be broken in, and can make a big difference. So to perform the test correctly the car would need to be fitted with 1000km tyres at the 60.000km test.),... They could just be lying, b/c they'd rather support a myth that is common believe, than make the effort, and take the risk, to enlighten their readers.

The thing that needs an easy brake in, and gets faster over time, is the organic bit of software behind the steering wheel. And that's the reason why the easy break in comes recommended from the factory, even though their racing devision uses the hard brake in. The first thing that Lamborghini does when they finnish a car, is hand the keys over to a test driver, who races the new machine up and down the Sant'Agate countryside. If I'm not mistaken, Ferrari has a private track next to its factory for the same purpose, as does Porsche. So when their manuals say you need to take it easy at first, it's for your sake, not the engine's. It's not bad advice, but it won't make your car faster.

I have to disagree....it is shown that cars with 25,000 to 30,000 miles will produce faster 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile times then when a car has 20 miles on it. This is due the engine seating and creating less friction there for less resistance... therefore more power. The engine will eventually become less efficient over longer periods of time as the motor wears beyond it tolerances. As for the statement,” The thing that needs an easy brake in, and gets faster over time, is the organic bit of software behind the steering wheel. And that's the reason why the easy break in comes recommended from the factory" .... you have to be kidding... they do it for the buyer not the engine... so we are to believe all these manufactures are all in bed creating the engine break in for the benefit of the buyer? That makes no sense.

[clam]

If by 'engine seating' you mean that components wear to fit each other, then you are skipping about a century in manufacturing. It is perhaps true that the very first production cars were rather crude, and the parts didn't always fit each other. And the friction between parts that didn't fit would deminish after a while, increasing effeciency. It doesn't mean the part suddenly fits. It just decreases friction, and a little while later the part will probably brake. Crankwalk is an example of that.
Modern cars work within a small tolerance, and a part that doesn't fit is a flaw. Not something that needs to be run in. You can run it all you want, it still won't fit, and will probably brake.
An engine is very much like a mechanical watch. In fact, the first engine builders were watch makers. It's a precision instrument. Either it works precise, or it doesn't. If something doesn't fit, then the watch is flawed. They don't make watches to only start working correctly after wear and tear, and they don't do that with engines either. It works, or it doesn't. The only thing that needs 'seating' in the engine are the cilinder rings, and the window of opportunity for that is the first 20 miles. Aside from that, there is no part of the engine that needs to be, or can be, worn into place.

If manufacturers recommend the 'hard break in' in the manual, they would be vulnerable to lawsuits from inexperienced new owners that crashed while following the instructions of the manufacturer. It's self-protection.
Manufactures have many similar unofficial agreements. Like the 250km/h speed limit. The line is that it is a safety measure, but in reality they are protecting themselfs against a top speed competition. If you think the horsepower war is bad, it takes exponentially more effort to achieve ever increasing top speeds. Not only the engine, but the whole car would have to be designed towards achieving the speed. Aerodynamics, engine, chassis, suspension&tyres, etc... Consider the headache that the Veyron was. The last thing manufacturers want is that people start buying their mass production cars for top speed, so they agreed on a limit. Seemingly for the benefit of the driver, but ultimatly self-protection. Just like the easy break in.

[Bauer]

Calm,

I am not saying that the parts need to wear together to fit. I am sorry if that is what you got from my statement.

I would say that race motors a built to a higer tolerance then street motors and that engineers that build race motors are worried about a different set of proplems than with a street motor. I know that all motors are built to a much higher tolerance than in the past. I am saying that a typical street motor will (how do I put this?) loosen up a little and create less friction therefore slightly more power. But hey I could be wrong... just find it interesting that many auto magazines (yes I know not always a great source of info) run these tests in Europe and US that show their fleet cars running faster after 25k to 30k then new.... it is not isolated to one magazine or one car... it is many.

Using the race motor vs street motor is probably not the best comparison. Since engineers worry about a different set of problems with a race motor then a street motor. Race motors are designed to last a certian number of hours under race conditions. Where street motors are designed to last a 100k miles or so all while staying within emission standards.

Also, I still don't agree about the break in period being for liablitly... but I guess we can agree to disagree.

[MR USER]

My racing mechanic told me that you can gain up to 10% when the engine looses up and that is notmally in the first few thousends km (depends how hard you drive it).

My black beuty will be out of the plastic surgeon on Friday (they repaired the back and replaced all the damaged parts).

I will try to loose it up a bit for another week or so then I wil see what the dyno says about the power....

I really miss the sound of my car... :rs4addict

My mechanic was telling me that probably they have chipped down the car to avoid issues with he engine but after a bit of complaining they will chip it up again.... in case it does not have the power declared by Audi.

I know of a similar case with the old M5 where the owner wrote to BMW and after moaning a bit they took it in and miracolously the car was much faster!!!

Will keep you posted

[clam]

I disgree to agreeing to disagree. :race:

With tolerance I mean the accuracy of the machining of the parts. Tolerance is the amount that you are allowed to be wrong, when shaping a part. If the tolerance is one 1mm, and the plans say 10mmm, then the part has to be between 9mm and 11mm. The tolerance you can achieve depends on you equipment. The smaller the tolerance, the better. Manufacturers work with micrometers. Coupled with good lubrication, engine parts don't even touch each other. They slide over a film of oil. That's why oil is so important. Direct contact between mechanical parts would be the end of the engine. There is no way that a part doesn't fit, and will cause friction, unless there is a flaw. And you can drive it a million miles, the flaw will not fix itself.

Race engines aren't that different from road engines. They just use more expensive materials, and production methods, but the basic science is still the same.

A successful racing mechanic has a website dedicated to engine maintenance, and is a strong supporter of the hard brake in. And against the myth that engines get better with time. Bikes prepped by him beat factory teams on a regular bases. The science is the same for any internal combustion engine.
http://mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm
issues 9-21-22-23-24 are about the 'break in'.

Here's a picture from issue 21. One engine was broken in with the hard break in, the other followed the manual. One had more power and won races, the other was done after the season.
The easy break in recommended from the factory does not allow the cylinder ring to properly seal, causing leakage. In this case the heat leakage distorted the cylinder bore.

[Bauer]

Well, If we are going to keep going back and forth like this I assume you would agree that Cosworth (now Mahle) is one of the premire engine builders in the world and could be classified as an expert in that subject?

If so, then I will ask our Mahle engineers at our next race event.

[clam]

cool :0:

[IulianUM]

MR USER good to hear that the :rs4addict is with you again .:mech:

BTW in which class do you race? .

[Bauer]

Are you asking me what series we race in?

If you are, we run 3 Audi A4 1.8T quattro's in the SPEED World Challenge Challenge Touring Car series. We have 2 B7 cars currnetly and will be building a 3rd one by the end of the season.

http://images3.fotki.com/v28/photos/6/673844/3312493/014-vi.jpg?500333

http://images17.fotki.com/v297/photos/6/673844/3406696/StPete2006STaSIS019-vi.jpg?500375

http://images8.fotki.com/v115/photos/6/673844/3406696/IMG_9735-vi.jpg?500333

http://www.speedarena.com/gallery/albums/Touring%20Cars/Speed%20WC/2006/02%20St.%20Petersburg//079.jpg

http://www.speedarena.com/gallery/albums/Touring%20Cars/Speed%20WC/2006/02%20St.%20Petersburg//025.jpg

http://images16.fotki.com/v273/photos/6/673844/2990407/Stasis011-vi.jpg?500375

http://images16.fotki.com/v303/photos/6/673844/3357257/20060315_c_0446-vi.jpg?500333

http://images16.fotki.com/v303/photos/6/673844/3357257/20060315_c_0370-vi.jpg?500333

http://images17.fotki.com/v307/photos/6/673844/3357257/20060315_c_0381-vi.jpg?500333

[MR USER]

I race with much less expensive cars on a regular basis. www.funcupitalia.it
All endurance races with a prototype that is the same for everyone. I also dove a 360 GT (FIA GT3 car), a Seat Leon ETCS (italian league of WTCC) and several go-karts championships.

Bauer where do ou race? States only? Do you ever come to Europe to race?

[Bauer]

We race only in the States, there is talk of putting our WCTC's on the track with WTCC cars when they are in Mexico. Probably somewhere in the Southwest United States to compare the cars. We have been working towards putting it together. Don't know if it will happen though, would be very interesting.

Our current driver line up is extremely strong and we are looking to try and finish top 10 with all our drivers and top 5 with two of them. Our Rookie driver is currently in the points lead for Rookie of the Year (6th overall) and our star driver is in 4th place. Hopefully by the end of our next race at Mid Ohio we will have moved up in the rankings.

I have read about the series you are racing in... looks very fun and exciting. Good luck and I hope you finish well.
:thumb:

[IulianUM]

Cool :0:

MR USER looks hard all with the same car type but sure "fenomenal fun"(Jason Plato dixit). :p

Bauer the American races are difficult to follow here , just Eurosport stuff . The B7 looks magnificent , very good pics.
Could be fantastic to see that cars compiting in the WTCC , Eurosport covered , your cars looks the part for sure .

Go for the win . :race:

[MR USER]

My Black Baby is Back Home!!!! Repaired and Roaring.
I almost forgot how much I love driving it!!! I love my car :heart:

I will do cuple more Km and then the ultimate test, DYNO.

Keep you all posted....

[clam]

So what was the issue?

Good thing you didn't wait around for it to mature like a fine wine. You could've waited a very very long time.

[Grouse]

Originally posted by MR USER

Yesterday when I went to sleep I was thinking of the previous experiences and I realised that the car is not as fast as I expected. I mean 420 horses in the hood should pull like mad... but they are not! well not as much I thought they did. Not that much more (if any) than the M3.



If i may intervine. If you were only a passenger back then (august) versus driving in it now. I submit this may be a large reason for the difference in feel of power.

It is inn my experience quite common fo have a car feel faster when you are a passenger. For a couple of reasons i think,

1) pedal feel, gear shifter feel, and clutch feel all provide instant comprehensive feed back to your brain about the car. These things are missing from a passenger seat.

2) and probably the most important is the steering wheel. The feed back to your hands goes directly into most comprehensive sensory data collector we have. Touch. The slightest vibration gives us more clues, and info as to the real situation.

to put this in perspective how many times have you taken a corner at x fast speed like you have done 100 times before with out fear. yet your passenger craps their pants. The lack of direct feedback to the passenger deprives us of information, which makes us judge the car inaccurately.






this oppinion was pulled out of my rear at 10:43 pm....so take it with a grain of salt and a couple of beers.

[lam4r]

Originally posted by Grouse
this oppinion was pulled out of my rear at 10:43 pm....so take it with a grain of salt and a couple of beers.

:D

[MR USER]

Unfortunately (or fortunately-depending from the point of view) I was driving the pre production RS4 on the Catalunya circuit back in August. I agree with you about being a passenger, it does not give you the same feelings but here I am comparing aplles with apples... Unless the Pre production model was faster than the production one as some have stated before.

In any case the Dyno will tell whether I'm just power spoiled or relistic... just little to go before the car gets to prove itself!

[Grouse]

after finding out we are getting cheated out of the seats and steering wheel, i am back to trying to convince my wife to move to zurich.....



it's a long story....

[MR USER]

I'm not sure I understand... actually I am sure I do not! what is about your ride and switzerland?

[Grouse]

LOL about a year ago, we had an oportunity to move to Zurich. My wife would have done a 2-3 year rotation. Bringing a insurance company public in the US.

We tossed our resume's in, got the process rolling, step by step it was moving forward. At a snails pace. 4 months later we put in a resume with a national bank here, My wife had an offer far exceeding the one from zurich.

We told KPMG zurich to speed things up... It never happened. We accepted the offer here.

While the offer here is better, with less hours, stress, and many chalenges. We regret not waiting and moving. Why? For all the reasons one would want, and many more. It's hard to explain my wife and I prefer to live in a place a few years and move... <shrugs> There is too much to see and do in this world for us to be tied down to one place.

Now that Audi has changed the seats and other things in the rs4 we have one more reason to regret not moving to Zurich....