DRC Update..

[Hy Octane]

Ok folks..

Having contacted James Cruise about my improperly repaired DRC, he sent a rep to my dealer to diagnose and rectify the problem..

Now according to the factory specs for the DRC system, it should be pressurized to approx 12 bar for normal ops with a maximum of 16 bar for the system.. Anything under 12 bar is listed as being not properly functioning..
This is how we got them from GMBH..



DRC – Systemdruckwerte, Interpretation

Druckwerte beziehen sich auf eine Referenztemperatur von 20° C.

ß 16 bar Maximaldruck
ß 15 – 16 bar Zentralventil neu oder neuwertig
ß 12 – 15 bar Normaler Arbeitsbereich, System in Ordnung
ß < 12 bar System undicht oder unvollständig befüllt, Lufteinschlüsse im System, Zentralventil defekt


Now, I am told that Audi is telling their techs to only pressurize the replacement systems to 5 bar, or less than half of the design specs..
The result is what we have see, A bouncy pitchy rolling diving and squating suspension..
It is NOT what we bought guys..Its the old bait n switch..
In addition, this suspension was designed and tuned to be at factory specs with the springs as one.. You cant just replace the shocks with softer ones and not change the springs as the entire package is not not matched together to perform at its best..
yet this is what AoA has done..
They have essentially detuned our racing suspension in favor of a comfort package without telling or asking us.
I think this might be grounds for a lawsuit but we'll see.. For those of you who have had the replacement done, I suggest you get on the phone to James Cruise and give him a bellyfull..
In my case, the tech from AoA watched as I demonstrated my bouncy nose and he then turned and quietly instructed the machanic to increase the pressure to 7 bar from 5.. still way under spec.. he did not at any time even look me in the eye and say he knew why this was happening, just whispered to my mechanic to up the pressure a few and acted like he was baffled by the whole mess.. Chicken shits all of em.. they knew all along and lied about it..
Shame on you Audi..

:vgrumpy:

[JavierNuvolari]

Sad to hear that AoA still does't solve your problem...even worse, the fact that are not fixing the sistem with pressure It should actually have. As you said on your post, those might be grounds for a nasty lawsuit, however I really hope that you can come to an agreement with them.


Best of luck,


Javier

[Benman]

So Paul,

My question would be: Why in the world would AOA do that? What could they possibly gain from screwing you over? Believe me, I completely believe you and what you're saying, but I can't for the life of me, fathom why they do it!?! I mean, pissing off a slug off customers doesn't mesh with their agenda (which is selling more cars).

You've been far more patient than any Audi owner should be, that's for sure. I just can't believe that AOA would deliberately lie to the dealer mechanics, its just a huge pill to swallow! Why not just tell them all that they know???:vhmmm: :confused:

Dang, this is some crazy stuff...:( I sure hope the needed people remove heads from the hind ends and get your car back on the road working RIGHT without anymore excuses!

:vgrumpy: :vgrumpy:

Ben:addict:

[Aronis]

Before I even finish reading your post....


Who Said the Pressure too Low???/


WHO????

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8798


I DID.....

When do I get my call from James Cruse?

When????


Only when I call him.....


Now ,back to finish reading your GREAT POST............

Mike

[Aronis]

I am MORE THAN PISSED now.

I'm going to call him first thing in the morning.

Mike

[Aronis]

The Central Valves are Factory Set on the Bench top to 16 Bar.

So if the valves are replaced and the pressure of the rest of the system is set to less than 16 bar, what happens to the BRAND SPANKING NEW CONTROL VALVES? Um....

I hope nothing...

I'm contacting my regional rep.....

Mike

[Aronis]

:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

[Paldi]

DRC – system pressure value, interpretation

Pressure values have references to a reference temperature of 20° C.

maximal pressure ß 16 cash ß 15 – 16 cash headquarters valve newly or mint

ß 12 – 15 cash normal field of work, system in order

ß <12 cash system befüllt leaky or incomplete, air inclusions in the system, headquarters valve defective.

So it sorta looks like a system fault(?) if pressure is under 12 bar and a new system should read 15 to 16.

Could this all be a simple translation problem?

Good luck on the fix. It's great that there's an answer. Finally.

[SpinEcho]

The saga continues...

But I have to echo Benman - what is AoA's motivation for under-pressurizing the system? Am I not understanding the story completely? Your DRC system has been replaced with the same DRC system, no? So then it must simply be a matter of pressurizing it properly! Where's the "bait and switch" you referred to?

Get them to pressurize it properly (easier said than done, it would seem), and the problem should be gone?!?!

:mech:

[Rally]

This is AoA's way of trying to keep the repeat failures to a minimum.
Low pressure means less failures. Stupid americans won't know the difference.

What a crock. I'd go looking for blood.

[Hy Octane]

Rally is correct I believe..

For whatever reasons, there have been alotta failures by leakage here and rather than admit it and be responsible for constant replacements, or rather than re-design the DRC, they just decided to reduce the pressure thus reduce the chance of leakage due to higher pressurisation..

maybe our roads are bumpier here or something.. The Bait and Switch is that they sell you a car that has a firm ride and as a result handles a certain way only to then change the characteristics of said car to a lesser performing mode without notice to the customer who is xpecting the same car to be returned to him. He now is stuck with a completely different feeling car which is not what he bought and has been used to for the last two years and when he inquires about why there is a change the reply is not truthful or factual. I was not notified or warned or asked about this. They just slid it in and pretended its normal.

I'm just really disappointed in this company...all the rah rah ree and Audi club for me stuff gets chucked right out the window when they pull this crap on us..

[SoCal]

Originally posted by Hy Octane
Ok folks..

Having contacted James Cruise about my improperly repaired DRC, he sent a rep to my dealer to diagnose and rectify the problem..

Now according to the factory specs for the DRC system, it should be pressurized to approx 12 bar for normal ops with a maximum of 16 bar for the system.. Anything under 12 bar is listed as being not properly functioning..

I read all the posts and I still don't get it. Who is your dealer? :mech: What are they thinking? Why treat you like this, especially since you know the score and have been through all your troubles? :vgrumpy: If anyone should be getting exemplary care, it's you and Mike.

Is it just DRC system pressure, or have they also swapped out the components? Because otherwise low pressure wouldn't make any sense. And raising it in right front of you but then not high enough seems really insane.

Glad not to have your problems, but in sympathy anyway...

what are answers?:vhmmm: :mech:

[Aronis]

Keep this in mind.

Engineering (world wide correct me if I am wrong, I am an Engineer)...works as follows.

Design Engineers Design it.
Prototype Engineers Make the Prototype.
Production Engineers Make the production specs.

Manufacturing makes the product.

Quality Control Engineers Check it out.

And....

Hate me if you will....

Non-Engineers (or poor Engineers) write the manual!

The biggist issue most find with any technical product (computers, cameras, toys, etc) is the QUALITY of the Manual.

If the true Spec was simply misswritten in the 'service bible' then the mechanics and the US dealerships are vindicated and are not to be 100% blamed.

The only blame one could put on them would then be for NOT LISTENING TO THE CUSTOMER who MIGHT, JUST MIGHT, know more about the car then they do. Thus when I pushed on my fender and made the car bounce and then did the same with the S4, a light bulb should have lit up over the service department 'something is not right.'

The solution is close at hand, just another 4 hours of driving...and a few days with a shitty loaner...I want a TT for my loaner this time....like I'll get that.

Mike

[Aronis]

Cruse is on vacation...

I spoke with my regional rep...

He said they pressurized my system to 8 bar, and with the central valve initially at 16, he suspects the system would end up at 10......I'd say it ended up at the 8 figure as I assume the entire system is connected including the central valves at the time the pressure gage is read!

Anyway here is the Kicker...

Ready...

The device that is used to pressurize the system, that special Vag Tool.....may not, not sure, may not tolerate more than 10 or 12 bar and they are very worried about using that tool without upgrading it...

Again....CALL GERMANY, talk to the Factory Technicians...what do they use?

Now what could have been a week, may turn into a month or more....and he believes the central valves may need to be replaced again!

Mike

[Qisha]

CALL GERMANY, talk to the Factory Technicians...what do they use?

This is what you need:

http://www.rs6.com/gallery/data/500/146040120100000.jpg
http://www.rs6.com/gallery/data/500/146040303300000.jpg

The Oil Pressure Gauge and the special Adapter for the RS6.

Order No´s:

Oil Pressure Gauge: V.A.G. 1342
Adapter: V.A.G. 1342/18

Kindly Regards,

qisha

[Paldi]

Sounds like all the RS6 techs in the Country lack the proper tool to charge the DRC. That could be an expensive issue to rectify an take a while. I wonder if any other manufacturer (BMW or Benz) has a similar DRC system on one of their cars and have the proper tools state-side to make the repair for you? (Long shot, I know.) Good luck. It will be interesting to see how the big mahoffs handle this one for you.

[Benman]

Originally posted by Rally
This is AoA's way of trying to keep the repeat failures to a minimum.
Low pressure means less failures. Stupid americans won't know the difference.

What a crock. I'd go looking for blood.

Rally, nice to hear from you!:cheers:


Originally posted by SoCal
I read all the posts and I still don't get it. Who is your dealer? What are they thinking? Why treat you like this, especially since you know the score and have been through all your troubles? SoCal,
I think (think), the problem we're reading about is not the dealers, the instructions are coming from higher up. Paul and Mike have been having serious issues for so long now that AOA has to be, and is involved. That being the case, the dealer is no longer calling the shots. AOA is.

A mechanic that was posting here (who had strong opinoins) was more than likely telling the truth. They're getting just as screwed as teh customers since they're not recieving the correct training to take care of the Paul and Mike's (and others) issues. It would appear that AOA really needs to step it up, call who they need to, fly out who they need to and be done with this. It is ridiculous! They have the answers (somewhere), so get them!

Ben:addict:

[Hy Octane]

It appears now that each shock is supposed to be filled and charged to 5 bar.. This is correct.. The problem my tech has is that they have no way to measure the pressure of the central accumulator valves.. So, if the center valve accumulator is not properly pressurized,(15-16 bar) and they have no way to check this (they dont have the gauges Quisha has illustrated above here in the USA) you will get what you get.. So, it may not be an Audi directive here but just a lack of training and proper parts being supplied to the techs here to comple the job properly. And, a lack of a qualified tech to know that its not right and why,..Either way, the result is an improperly function suspension that we have been complaining about and still AoA will not correct this internally..

The fact that we as consumers have to become involved to this extent in the basic upkeep of these cars is ridiculous!

More later..

[Audihead]

To get to be an RS6 dealer you had to have 3 things. $60K in special tooling, Audi Assist Vehicle, and specially trained Audi personnel to handle the RS6's special systems. It sounds like this system has broken down completely. What a shame. If this were to happen to me I would drive around with Lemon written on the vehicle and let the dealer see it. I have known a few people that have done this, it worked. The dealer didn't like it, but they got things worked out in a hurry.

[Benman]

Originally posted by Audihead
If this were to happen to me I would drive around with Lemon written on the vehicle and let the dealer see it. I have known a few people that have done this, it worked. The dealer didn't like it, but they got things worked out in a hurry.

Hey, that's a pretty good idea. Paul and Mike, may come down to that!

Ben:addict:

[SpinEcho]

Should the sign read "Fast lemon"?

Imagine if BMW dealers fixed their M models like this!

Wait a minute, they had exploding engines...

[chutia]

Aronis, Hy Octane, Rally, other jerked off by AoA (??)-
Include me in your growing crowd...sounds to me like some real coalescing of poor treatment going on. This car simply has too many problems, at least for the US market.

For all those other lucky owners with no or little problems: Good for you and enjoy.

For us others: Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble!

[Aronis]

regional rep wants to 'see' my car on Monday in Latham...

If they don't have the proper tool to fix it, then why make me drive to latham? Come to Binghamton and look at my car here.

I don't have time for this right now, too far....too inconvenient....I hope they get the right tool and figure out if they can repressurize the system without having to replace the valves again as those parts are going to become difficult to find....but do this learning on someone elses car or give me a new S4 to drive until it's really fixed.

Mike

[KCRS6]

Mike, is the Audi dealer in Ithaca not an authorized RS6 dealer? It is obviously much closer. My daughter has had good luck having her A4 serviced there.

[Aronis]

The Ithica dealer is no longer a certified RS6 dealer.....I checked that before the DRC repair was even started.

This is what I hear now.

No US shop has the pressure enough to reach 16 bar =230 PSI.....

So what I am being told is that the Central Valves are 16 bar, the rest of the system is charged to 5 bar, then connected to the central valves and the system takes on some rather arbitrary pressure (close to some known number based on the volume of the system etc), well below that 16 bar mark!

Not exactly a precise method of doing this, but appartently the higher pressure 12 bar is very hard to produce in a shop!!!

Confidence dropped back down a few pegs now....they want to 'see my car' . or is that my ginny pig

Mike

[Paldi]

230 pounds of air pressure. You need a fitting, a gage that can read pressure that high and something that can supply the pressure. Shouldn't be THAT hard.

How about an airplane repair shop at your local runway? I mean, really - there's no Audi repair shop OK, but it's a big country. Audi should send the tech, the gage and get thee to a place with 230 pounds of oomph, pronto.

[Hy Octane]

What I find incredible is that knowing this, they take your car in anyway, put some kinda lame assed repair job on it which they know is wrong, then hand it back saying 'Fixed" and pretend it is.. they act surprised when you say " its not fixed" and they begin the ahemmin and ahawin..

Not only this, but instead of taking the bit and saying " dont worry sir, we will get to the bottom of this and get it repaired for you asap", you get

'well, our tech assure us its up to US spec.. are you sure you're not just imagining this?"

Its Audi's own fault if dissention is in the ranks due to their super secrecy policy about everything.. If they would come out and give us all the facts, this conjecture and rumor mongering about whats behind this would all be settled.. as it is, they leave the door wide open to slam them in the butt as it closes..

[LIRS6]

Ok, so as Paldi suggests, what could be so difficult or expensive if AoA where to have on hand in some central location the correct parts/guages etc required to bring the DRC back to factory spec, which they can send out to a dealer on an as-needed basis. Let's face it, a dealer may have no need, or at the most, infrequent need for that equipment. Rather than expect the dealer or AoA to foot the bill for 50 sets of it to cover the USA RS6 dealerships, just have one or two sets available. Big friggin' deal.

[s42ski]

"No US shop has the pressure enough to reach 16 bar =230 PSI.....

So what I am being told is that the Central Valves are 16 bar, the rest of the system is charged to 5 bar,"


OK, Maybe I buy that no shop has a 230 psi source (not!) but 5 bar is 74 psi - my little $89 Pep Boys compressor can do 140 psi or about 10 Bar - A commercial air compressor that EVERY shop in the country has ( power the air tools and the hoists) can do 160-180 PSI or about 12-14 Bar - or enough that could get you to at least the specification range.

That has got to be one of the lamest excuses....

[chutia]

Hy Octane-
You are my hero!! Enough BS from AoA, AoG, whatever and whomever (so secret we don't even know that!)

[SpinEcho]

Mike,

What about Canadian stealers? There's one here in Ottawa as well as several in Toronto and Montreal. AoA includes Audi of Canada, so maybe they can help? Just a thought...

[Aronis]

You might be onto something.

I am sad to say this....

But I get FAR more thumbs up, waves, 'nice car, Ah?' when I am in Canada than in the states!! At least where I drive LOL.

When I was at an Audi Dealership in Waterloo ONT (getting a case of the oil (same used for VW Turbo Deisel Cars)) the entire service department was all over my car wanting to look at this and that....LOL..

I only get a second look in the US after blowing off a Corvette or Mustang GT LOL...they usually CRY LOL...

I'll look into it...we have a trip planned in August...

Take Care....

by the way say hello to the troopers in Napanee for me...

LOL

Mike

[SoCal]

Originally posted by Benman
SoCal,
I think (think), the problem we're reading about is not the dealers, the instructions are coming from higher up. Paul and Mike have been having serious issues for so long now that AOA has to be, and is involved. That being the case, the dealer is no longer calling the shots. AOA is.

Yes, you are absolutely right. And after reading the other newer posts, it seems pretty clear that, whether the problem is manuals, training or equipment, AoA should be able to do a better job fixing this particular issue.

The pressure is certainly rising for some RS6 owners, but not in their DRC systems.:vgrumpy:

[Aronis]

I believe the KEY is to at the very least have the local service managers/dealer managers/etc Acknowledge that there IS a problem with the 'fixed car'.

I am having a very hard time getting anyone to commit to a position on their 'impression' of the function of the suspension.

I believe I am close to getting the Regional Guy to perhaps put something into writing for his higher ups.

If they can't look at the simple comparison between the stiffness of my car and an S4 sitting right next to it and come to the proper conclusion (something is not right) then ALL is lost on getting it back to 'normal.'

That simple lack of verbal or written acknowledgement from anyone there is what bothers me the most!

Again, I am confident that a solution will be found as there are more than a handful of the 1200 suffering from this problem.

I think a letter to Card and Driver, Motortrend, etc perhaps is in order.

What do you think?

They are gearing up for the RS4 Rollout in a few weeks. My regional rep is very excited about that event and is heading there soon. (I hope he can fix my car first LOL). If the Car and Drive, etc articles on the RS4 mention the DRC and OUR problem, perhaps that will be the kick in the pants Audi needs to get the system right.

Mike

[Paldi]

Mike, where are you? If you're near one of the RS6 centers of population like Chicago, I'll bet a "swarm" of RS6 owners would be willing to drive to your dealer and let the service guys compare suspensions. No need to compare yours to an S4!

What better excuse for a road trip?

[Aronis]

Originally posted by Paldi
Mike, where are you? If you're near one of the RS6 centers of population like Chicago, I'll bet a "swarm" of RS6 owners would be willing to drive to your dealer and let the service guys compare suspensions. No need to compare yours to an S4!

What better excuse for a road trip?

I'd love to do that but it's too far....

Finnus is closest to my dealership, if he could some how show up on Monday, April 24th at 10:30 am in Latham at Langan Audi with his nice normal functioning RS6 that would be helpful...Ehem....Finnus?? Oh Finnus....

LOL

Mike
:race:

[Benman]

Originally posted by Aronis
I'd love to do that but it's too far....

Finnus is closest to my dealership, if he could some how show up on Monday, April 24th at 10:30 am in Latham at Langan Audi with his nice normal functioning RS6 that would be helpful...Ehem....Finnus?? Oh Finnus....

LOL

Mike
:race:

Yeah, right before he sells it. Better get em' quick!

Ben:addict:

[JAXRS6]

Originally posted by Aronis
I think a letter to Card and Driver, Motortrend, etc perhaps is in order.

What do you think?

I doubt a letter would work at this point. Car & Driver and other mags would be more interested in hearing a problem affecting hundreds or thousands of owners, not a dozen or less.

If I was a letters editor, I would want answers to all of these before publishing: If the problem is so widespread, why isn't there a petition rather than a letter, or at least more letters? Have the owners contacted the feds about a recall? If so, what were the results? If not, why not?

Complaints about a sporadic problem affecting a few perceived-as-wealthy owners of exclusive German hot rods are not likely to make a big impression IMO, especially since there have been no related accidents or injuries.

I could be wrong, of course. :rolleyes: But we ought to also consider that a published letter may do no more than focus attention on an apparently limited RS6 problem, and that may not be good for resale values. We could end up hurting ourselves, so to speak.

But, hey, if some of you feel otherwise & want to proceed with a letter or letters, have at it -- and good luck! :thumb:

As mentioned in earlier posts, AOA has extended my warranty by 12/12, so I'm not in a good position to complain any more than I already have via fax.

[chutia]

The situation with AoA, lack of training, bellicosity, wasting time, there's no problem with the car-only with the owner are all hallmarks of the treatment that too many of this scandalous car's owners get. More to come....

[Aronis]

Had my car in again today, mainly to meet the regional rep face to face. It was nice to speak with him.

At least I got an acknowledgement that the car is not normal. I'd like to add more but I have to stay candid at this point.

The bottom line is that despite following all the written directions and getting input from higher ups in AOA, they still cannot return the car to normal.

Today under vacuum for three times the usual time period more air was indeed pulled out of the rear shocks. The fronts did not produce any air bubbles.

The car still bounces when pressing on the fenders and far too easy to move.

On stopping the car squats too much.

On turns when one side hits a bump the car rocks side to side.

On the highway at speed with the summer tires, turning the wheel back in forth abruptly produces a very uneasy feeling. So the snow tires were not the issue.

On the bottoming out issue clearly the incorrect offset on the wheels (tire racks bad) and the fact that the tread block on the snow tires is much taller were the cause of the frequent brushing of the tires against the wheel well AFTER the suspension failed.

Now on bumps the car does not settle right down.

I have at this point lost all faith that Audi can fix this car despite all the hard work put in by the regional rep and the local mechanic. I thank them both for trying.

I am now going to request an end of lease.

It's been fun on RS6.com.

Mike

[Benman]

Originally posted by Aronis

I have at this point lost all faith that Audi can fix this car despite all the hard work put in by the regional rep and the local mechanic. I thank them both for trying.

I am now going to request an end of lease.

It's been fun on RS6.com.

Mike

Sad to hear Mike. We will miss seeing you around the forums.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Paldi]

Since Audi occasionally takes one of these to the Manheim auctions, I'm wondering if they have one that's in good shape they can swap you for? You could start fresh and maybe hang on until the end of your lease period...

You deserve to be made right after all this. Best of luck.

Fred

[SpinEcho]

Mike, you have been more than patient. Too bad to see you are forced into this action. Thanks for sharing all with us - forewarned is forearmed.

If you're ever up Ottawa way, drop me a line here so I can see whatever replacement you have chosen for the Beast...

:thumb:

[SoCal]

Originally posted by Aronis
I have at this point lost all faith that Audi can fix this car despite all the hard work put in by the regional rep and the local mechanic. I thank them both for trying.

I am now going to request an end of lease.

It's been fun on RS6.com.

Mike

Very sorry to hear that. Let us know what your new ride is.

All the best.