PDA

View Full Version : What are the launch engines for new A4



Leadfoot
March 30th, 2006, 17:23
Hi,

This may have been talked about, but does anyone know which engines are going to launched with the new A4. Mainly will there be a S4 model at the start and hopefully an RS4 in a year or so after.:s4addict:

tailpipe
April 6th, 2006, 18:27
A recent AMS article in Germany reported that the B8 would be launched with two V6 FSI engines, with one being a 3.2 litre version and the other a 3.6 litre version.

I expect that the L4 2.O litre TDI and V6 2.7/ 3.0 litre TDI will be made available. Later, an entry level L4 2.0 litre FSI engine should come, plus an S4 with a detuned version of the RS4's 4.2 litre V8. (Before you rush off and order a new S4, remember that the B8 version is at least 4 years away.)

Apart from the V6 3.6 FSI , most of the launch engines in the B8 are nothing new. The real excitement is the transmission. The Q7 previews the type of solution Audi has developed, which shows a linkage running forward to power the front wheels. This is actually quite similar to BMW's X-drive in concept. The crucial difference is that Audi Quattro systems will incorporate a Torsen differential that splits power 60:40 rear:front depending on traction. I think it is also much lighter.

What this picture doesn't show is that the B8 chassis is likely to have the engine mounted further behind the front axle to improve weight distribution. The key development problem that Audi engineers will be trying to overcome is how to reduce loss of power / efficiency when drive is transmitted forward through the linkage that runs from the back of the gearbox to the front wheels.

NOW FOR A REALLY BIG PREDICTION: This solution is unlikely be effective for non-Quattro versions that presently incoporate front wheel drive. Therefore, Martin Winterkorn may have won his battle to move Audi to a rear-drive platform architecture. (YOU HEARD IT ON RS6.com FIRST!!!)

The other important pice of technology is the longitudinally-mounted version of DSG. Expect a 7-speed box.

The important thing to remember about B8 A4 is that Audi will be looking to save weight and reduce production costs. unfortunately these two objectives conflict with each other. A common platform architecture for A4/ A5/ Q5/ A6/ A7 will certainly help. But expect to see a wider use of aluminium components for the suspension, wheels, wings, trunk and hood.

B8 is a truly exciting and important Audi. I am hoping it will be an A4 that finally eclipses BMW's 3-Series.

tailpipe
April 6th, 2006, 18:29
Q7's transmission system referred to above:

eazy
April 7th, 2006, 10:06
Thanks for that nice write-up :0:

Leadfoot
April 7th, 2006, 18:29
Tailpipe,

Thanks for that. Four years before a S4 arrives, surely not, are you not taking about the RS4. I can't believe that Audi will allow BMW three years unchecked with the M3.

I take it that the 3.6L is this the 300bhp unit previewed earlier and it's this unit that will compete this the new 335i unit from BMW.

With regards to Audi moving to rwd, will this mean there will be two performance ranges- rwd or quattro eq. S4 and SQ4?

tailpipe
April 7th, 2006, 19:09
Leadfoot,

Following the introduction cycle Audi has adopted in recent years, the saloon/ sedan arrives first followed by the estate/wagon version a year later. A high performance S version usually arrives two years down the line and an RS version four years down the line. (The current RS4 is very late in the A4 model cycle.)

If Audi continues to follow this pattern, and the first B8 A4s arrive on the market in 2008, then the next S4 would arrive in 2010. That's in four year's time.

I agree; this is a long time to wait.

Howver, the A5 coupe will arrive in 2007. I expect an S or RS version of this to be released quite quickly, i.e. within a year to 18 months of launch. An Audi A5 coupe would be a much more direct competitor to the M3 than the saloon S4/ RS4.

An S5 with the standard version of the new 4.2 litre V8 FSI engine developing 350-380 bhp would be a match for the next M3, not least because it will be a much lighter car than B7. Add the RS4's 420 bhp engine and the M3 is toast.

As for RWD versus Quattro, My guess is that RWD will only be used for entry level cars with smaller engines. High performance Audis will always have AWD so that they have superior traction and predictable limits.

AndyBG
April 9th, 2006, 04:09
Are those 3.2 and 3.6 V6 engines going to be VR, single-head construction like in VW Touareg, Porsche Cayenne and Audi Q7, or classic V engines with two heads, like current Audis 3.2 V6 (255 hp)?

Leadfoot
April 9th, 2006, 22:03
If it's the engine that is in the new Q7, then it is a VR engine which is based on the VR6 engine in the R32 and A3. This unit produces 280ps in the Q7. Because the A4 mounts it's engine like a rwd car, there is no advantage to use the narrow vee VR6 type engine, apart from a cost point of view, one engine type, one production line. The prototype of the new A4, it's unit I think is based on the current 3.2L from the A4 and A6, but Tailpipe or Iceman could confirm if this is correct.

Tailpipe, if you are right and Audi do move to rwd then 280ps will be more than enough for the normal range, especially if as you say the weight will greatly be reduced. Though I personally am not convinced they will switch to rwd, the gearbox will already be produced for the new quattro system to drive the front wheel, so with the none quattro cars why not ditch the rear part of it. The weight has still move backwards so the handling would still be great for a fwd car. And you can't say fwd has hurt the GTI Golf with the motoring press.

tailpipe
April 9th, 2006, 23:09
Leadfoot,

I will surely eat my words if proved wrong about the new platform architecture. There are, however, five factors which lead me to believe that my perspectives will prove to be right:

1. The new PL47 architecture for A4, A5, A6 and A7 models is primarily a longitudinal chassis similar to that of the Q7. It has to offer both Quattro and non-Quattro versions for entry level models. A longitudinal chassis is not ideal for FWD cars because the engine needs to sit in front or over the forward axle. This causes the forward weight bias that has traditionally afflicted Audi's handling creating huge understeer.

2. Audi's avowed in tent is to improve the handling of its entire range in keeping with its sporting aspirations. To achieve this, Audi must move the engine back instead of it being located over/ in front of the forward axle. If you move the engine behind the front axle or rewarwards, you have the problem of driving the front wheels efficiently. One way to get around this is to reposition the gearbox ahead of the engine. Cool. But it would create heavier and more complex Quattro models. So a less complex solution that is simpler and cheaper to engineer is likely to be preferable.

3. If you look at the Q7 chassis, you can see the set-up Audi has adopted for this model. A secondary forward linkage running out of the gearbox drives the front wheels. This arrangement is fine for a secondary shaft to deliver AWD, but is unlikely to be effcient for non-quattro versions. It makes better sense to use a straightforward RWD arrangement. Moreover, why go to the expense of engineering this for the Q7 if you're not going to use it elsewhere? These days Both Audi and Volkswagen are obesesed by cutting costs.

4. Most significantly, if Audi does adopt a RWD architecture, then it has everything it needs to compete directly with BMW, MB and the new threat of Lexus - all of which utilise RWD architectures. imagine the PR hype Audi will generate when this story breaks officially.

5. What finally convinces me that this is the way Audi is going is, if it isn't what they intend to use, what on earth would be the best alternative technical solution for both Quattro and non-Quattro models? The answer is two entirely different solutions, one for Quattro and one for FWD. This equals too much cost for too little advantage.

I believe Martin Winterkorn has won his battle for a dual RWD/AWD architecture. It's a big story and it will break with the launch of the A5/ A4 models.

clam
April 9th, 2006, 23:44
RWD huh, that's what I said would need to happen if Audi pushed the engine back, without changing the location of the gearbox. Otherwise you'd have an akward access to the front, that would be far more complicated than a simple rearward driveshaft. Though I have to admit, I though they would remain stubborn (never follow), would not go RWD and actually change the location of the gearbox. So I'm half right, but I'll give myself a pad on the back anyways.

Audi is really starting to cover all the bases. Turbo performance, n/a performance, Diesels, Coupés, SUVs, RWD/AWD. And Audi has something the others don't: ASF. The M3 CSL was 110kg lighter than the regular version, had no stereo and such, and cost €30k more than the regular version. The new TT saves 200kg compared to the Z4, keeps all the gadgets, and is actually cheaper. And now finally they get to apply all that technology to a properly balanced chassis. The B8 platform wil sooo kick ass. It's like the final few moves of a chess game. Audi spend the last +10years putting all the pieces in place, and now they're going in for the kill. The competition has no prayer.

Question Tailpipe; is the R8 using torsen with a reversed version of the B8 layout , or will they go with a multi plate clutch like the Gallardo? A Torsen layout would actually resemble the Murcéilago layout with the gearbox in the middle. The Le Mans concept claimed to have a 40:60 torsen diff.

from press release:
---
For optimal traction and dynamic road behaviour, the power from this mid-engined sports car’s ten-cylinder engine is normally distributed in a ratio of 40:60 between the front and rear axles. This achieves maximum agility together with optimal traction - essentials for supreme road dynamics in all conditions and on corners of varying radii.

This version of the quattro driveline, with Torsen C inter-axle differential, is of course capable of diverting engine torque to the axle at which there is more tyre grip available, in order to suppress wheelspin. Depending on the amount of grip detected, torque distribution between the front and rear axles can be varied continuously from 20 : 80 to 70 : 30 percent.
---

AndyBG
April 10th, 2006, 03:01
Leadfoot, thank you for explaining me diference between ''V'' and ''VR'' engines, but that i allready now, my question is, what engine structure is Audi going to use in its new A4/A5 lineup?

Do you or anybody else have a clue on that one? :vhmmm:


:cheers:

tailpipe
April 10th, 2006, 22:02
Originally posted by clam

Question Tailpipe; is the R8 using torsen with a reversed version of the B8 layout , or will they go with a multi plate clutch like the Gallardo? A Torsen layout would actually resemble the Murcéilago layout with the gearbox in the middle. The Le Mans concept claimed to have a 40:60 torsen diff.

from press release:
---
For optimal traction and dynamic road behaviour, the power from this mid-engined sports car’s ten-cylinder engine is normally distributed in a ratio of 40:60 between the front and rear axles. This achieves maximum agility together with optimal traction - essentials for supreme road dynamics in all conditions and on corners of varying radii.

This version of the quattro driveline, with Torsen C inter-axle differential, is of course capable of diverting engine torque to the axle at which there is more tyre grip available, in order to suppress wheelspin. Depending on the amount of grip detected, torque distribution between the front and rear axles can be varied continuously from 20 : 80 to 70 : 30 percent.
---

Clam,

Audi claims that the R8 has a unique ASF chassis, but I'm pretty certain that it is a variation on the existing Murcielago/ Gallardo platform, just as the TT is a variation on the Golf platform. I've heard nothing about it being derived from the B8. Given that B8 has a much deeper, higher cabin space for better interior packaging and the Murcielago has a lower profile body for a lower centre of gravity, I'd be surprised if Audi didn't go for a Lamborghini derivative.


As for Torsen, I really don't know yet. Sorry.

Now I'm going to say something contraversial. I beginning to think that Audi shouldn't be making the R8 at all. Doing so can only cannibalise Lamborghini sales. The problem is that Audi doesn't have the brand credibility to make a really expensive mid-engined sports car. The analogy I would draw is to BMW's Z8. Lovely car in so many ways - just way too expensive for what it was. The brand couldn't carry it.

In my own mind, I associate Audi with practical performance, i.e. saloons and wagons with AWD quattro, not "tyre-shredding" mid-engined designs. That's Ferrari and Lamborghini territory. Part of Audi's traditional apeal was its restrained "speak softly, carry a big stick" approach to designing cars.

If Audi then sells the R8 as inexpensively as possible, then it makes the Gallardo redundant. In doing so it erodes the value of its investment in Lamborghini; which seems pointless. I believe Lamborghini has a much stronger long-term value than Audi gives it credit for. Why kill a goose that has the potential to lay golden eggs well into the future? The big mistake GM made is that all of its brands tried to fill every niche instead of remaining focused. As a result, its cars all became a similar dirty brown-grey smudges instead of a spectrum of distinctive colours.

Even in good times, the market for supercars sold above €100,000+ is pretty thin. But Audi doesn't care about this. The R8 is intended to create a halo effect that will reingforce Audi's sporting credentials. Unfortunately, the market is fickle. My fear is that a need for seriously economical cars could return with a vengeance, (anyone remember the old VW Formel E models!) i don't think we have seen the last of oil price shocks.

But perhaps this is Volkswagen's role, anyway?

I am sure i will fall in love with the R8 when it arrives, but if i tell Mrs Tailpipe i've just bought a new Audi and turn up with an R8, she'll crucify me.

clam
April 11th, 2006, 15:44
Don't underestimate the power of a halo car. Where would Subaru be without the WRX?

I think Audi needs a car that's a little crazy. BMW and MB are is succesful b/c they are part of western culture. The names are bigger than the cars. Mercedes could stick the three point star in a cow turd, and still find people standing in line to empty their pockets. I think the marketing folk call it lifestyle. Audi doesn't have that yet, and it's the only thing stopping them from breaching the 1million/year mark. It could never get away with an SLR, or the rediculous price of options at BMW.
The TT did wonders for the brand, but it doesn't make you go "guess what I saw". It's still too practical, too common, too affordable. And you need to be an enthusiast to spot an RS.
At this point they need something that is a mobile billboard for the Audi brand. Something that isn't practical. A purely decadent luxury product, that only the aristocracy gets to drive. Something that your wife won't let you buy. The R8 is insane, and that will be the key to its success.

I don't think it'll be a threat to the Gallardo. Not many people are going to cross-shop between a Lamborghini and an Audi. The R8 is mostly going to steel sales from the 911 wannabees, and to a lesser extent the 911 itself. Maserati GT, Jaguar XK, Aston Martin V8, BMW 6series, etcetera. R8 owners will be people who really want a 911, but want to be original as well. The R8 is pretty original.

Also, Lamborghini is careful not to become too successful. Exclusivity is a big part of the brand. In the future they will be looking at making more models, and limiting the production volume of the individual models. So some internal competition would actually be healthy. Lamborghini can keep its exclusive nature, but Audi can get as much out of the invesment as possible by offering the alternative, using the same hardware.
For that same reason, Ferrari limits its own yearly production volume, and has made Maserati its entry brand. Maserati is using Ferrari's hardware, just like Audi will be using Lamborghini's hardware. But noone will claim that Maserati is a threat to the exsistance of Ferrari. Even though the MC12 is faster than the Enzo.

Platform sharing mainly means subframes, suspension, electronics, nuts and bolts, etcetera. The generic features that are the same for every car, and don't really effect its character. It doesn't mean they have to share a drivetrain, although they probably will. The chassis of the R8 can't be the same as the Gallardo's, b/c with ASF the shape of the body is part of the structure of the chassis.

Leadfoot
April 11th, 2006, 18:28
If you had the money to buy the Gallardo, no one would pick the R8 unless it was £50K less and had the same performance. Remember both Lambos sell and the performance isn't that much different.

Now its a trickier question if I would have a 911 over the R8. It will depend on the price. If the same I reckon with the performance and looks alone, I would have the R8.

tailpipe
April 11th, 2006, 18:39
Clam,

What an intelligent and well thought out response. it's why i like this forum so much. Thanks. You make some valid points.

Leadfoot
April 11th, 2006, 21:41
Clam,

Your point about platform sharing was so true. Another perfect example is the A3/TT, basically the same car but with totally different characters.

The exterior looks, feel of materials, size of interior and even the appearance of the dash effect the overal character of cars every bit as much as the way it drives. And because of these points the Gallardo will maintain it's sales and the R8 will find a new ones.

I know there has been lots of speculation on engine choice - V8, V10, W12 and even diesel which I am not sure any one of us are quite ready for, especially in a supercar. For me the W12 6.0L would be the engine of choice, super smooth and kick ass powerful. If VW could put it in their prototype supercar why not Audi, as long as there is no turbos it's not the supercar way. It's crying out to be tuned.

My only hope is Audi can do what BMW couldn't. And why not, Ford did it with the GT and for a lot more money than Audi will be looking.

Toto89
April 29th, 2006, 21:28
I think the new A4 will use mostly the new valvelift technology engines, which technology debuted in concept Roadjet.