Porsche GT3 roll on the Ring

[freerider]

Part 1 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8871671328066420740&q=porsche)

Part 2 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3100947701401219449)

Johan

[Erik]

I'm not too keen on seeing crashes. But I know this one and it can help people to avoid doing the same mistake.

Let's roll (the film and discussion).

What could he have done to avoid the crash or make it easier on himself?

[Aronis]

OH..........that was painful to watch.....

everyone ok there? Saw the driver walking!

Ouch.

Mike

[freerider]

Originally posted by Erik
I'm not too keen on seeing crashes. But I know this one and it can help people to avoid doing the same mistake.

Let's roll (the film and discussion).

What could he have done to avoid the crash or make it easier on himself?

I'm not to keen on seeing crashes either.

I think the guy who filmed it is a moron. He laughs while seeing it, wihtout knowing how the driver or possible passenger is doing.

His mistake is the throttle and the too long counter steer. He didn't enter the bend too fast, but with no or too little throttle from what I can see (hear).

To avoid this he could have entered slower and give more throttle, because I think he was suprised by the bend and got scared.

Johan

[Aronis]

Yes, its very hard to get a guage on the speed from that camera angle. The rear just loves to come around on those cars, so it does not take much of a 'mistake' to cause that! I wonder how much damage was done!

Mike

[SoCal]

Sad to watch.

For learning purposes, though, from part 1, I'd say in short that the driver needed smoother hands and faster feet. Entry speed wasn't the problem. Trying to compensate for a bad line by using steering wheel and brakes instead of throttle -- compounded by excessive braking -- was the issue IMHO.

Specific driver errors from which lessons could be learned here included:

(a) It looked a little like the driver kept braking going into the initial turn, or at least lifted off the gas, rather than taking the better course: tapping the brakes briefly to shed a little speed before entry and to stabilize the car, then powering moderately through first apex.

(b) Having missed the first apex on early turn in with too much weight in the front of the car from slowing -- and hence loss of traction -- and wishing for a second chance at the first apex, the driver jerked the steering wheel in too far and too late, skidding, and probably while also lifting up more on the throttle or braking more, thus pulling almost all the car's weight off of the rear wheels and losing traction further. It's as if the driver tried to hug the inside of the whole turn rather than treating it as a double apex -- and then, figuring somewhere in the mind's recesses that doing so might be possible at a slower speed, tried to slow down further rather than using speed to carry through a wider turn between the apexes; should have let the car run out from the first apex, using the whole track through the turn, rather than turning in so sharply, or trying to hold to close to the inside edge. By then, the driver was already drifting badly around the first apex and likely heading for a 360 stop on the track or a wide, late runoff into the dirt at best.

(c) Then, after losing control on the first apex and to avoid spinning further, the driver overcompensated (duh) as if to get back on the intended line without first stabilizing the car (in other words, without getting weight distribution back as close as possible to neutral, or at least more weight onto the drive wheels in the rear by accelerating). That was not going to work, though, becuase without traction there was nothing to steer; in fact, it looked like the driver came off the throttle completely, braked and countersteered without first getting any traction at all -- making recovery pretty much impossible in the space available.

(d) Compounding the error -- the driver kept on the brakes too hard and way too long while trying to correct with the steering wheel alone, again instead of getting off brakes, applying throttle to get traction back, and fixing the line gradually by steering "with the feet".

Once the initial recovery was botched, it would have been better to keep the wheel relatively steady, ease on more power, and possibly oversteer off the track into the dirt rather than to flail about on the track while braking and fishtailing through the turn, where rolling into the wall at the end of the turn was a bigger risk. The runoff area was in the right place, but the driver wasn't.

I'm no expert, just my 2 cents. Not saying I'd have done any better, either, if I were the driver. And that's not a car that gives many second chances in that kind of situation.

Again, very sad and painful to watch.

[Benman]

Originally posted by SoCal

I'm no expert, just my 2 cents. Not saying I'd have done any better, either, if I were the driver. And that's not a car that gives many second chances in that kind of situation.

Again, very sad and painful to watch.

I think you summed it up nicely SoCal.:thumb:

It was sad to watch, but is very instructional for all of us who can benefit from it. In the heat of the moment, sometimes "basic" training goes out the window and wrong "instincts" blast in. We might might "know" what to do, but if not careful, our instincts kick in.


Originally posted by freerider
I think the guy who filmed it is a moron. He laughs while seeing it, wihtout knowing how the driver or possible passenger is doing.

Johan,

I thought the same thing when I first watched it (Part 1), but then going back, you realize he's only laughing
until he realizes that the Porsche driver is about to eat major dump. He probably thought he was going to pull out, and therefor the "scare" was funny. Once the Porsche slams into the wall, it suddenly isn't so funny for the filmer anymore.


Thanks for the link, a great lesson for all of us!:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[jinglis]

Not keen on watching crashes either but I did watch this one a number of times as a learning excercise...I really feel for the bloke.

I am sure that the driver of that car knows what not-to-do and will also be a better driver than I, but I could feel myself making the same mistake as I watched.


It's hard to see and hear the video but my take on it is...

He's coming up to the corner and then just into it he feels like he is going a bit fast so he lifts of the throttle...back end therefore goes light and loses grip.

As the back end slowly comes round the drivers feels it and compensates by turning into the slide...the car is slowing and now the front tires get some grip...looks like he gets the wheels straight (I though at first that his front wheels might be turning to the left and therefore that's where he'd go once the front tires caught) but there is still no weight on the back and I am guessing that when the back end is coming around after compensating it's too late to try compensating again.

To avoid the first mistake 'remind oneself that I am not going to lift in the corner...before hitting the corner'. If you do lift then remind yourself that getting down power will shift weight back and you'll get grip.

Easy to say in theory, obviously not easy in practice.

[SoCal]

Ben, thanks for nice words. And you're right about instincts vs. training. Hard to map new reflexes.

Jinglis, I agree. Nicely put. Concise.

[7:53 RS6]

I guess no but the driver know 100% what happend. But my speculation is he is to fast in to the bend, it could also be he find this out at the moment and do a big lift or brake.

Depending on car, but whit a GT3/CSL or simular due to speed they carry you nead to just tab the brakes just before Planzgathen jump. Well down after the small jump in the lowest part, brake a bit more not to hard,farly solid and short. Then it goes slightly uphill just as he start slid(dont show in vid) and the first right turn(where slide beginns) he should be about 1m from the right kerb, depending on car, driver tiers slicks vs others,

But in genral its the line here if you want to setting up a absolutley full spead fast line for comming Sprunghugel and Swalbenzwans 500-600m futer down. More or les you cant hold flat all the way to Swalbenzwans if you dont get it propper just at the spot he begin sliding.

A porker is in genral, slower in to bends, but thend to go faster out. CSL as exampel is more tolerant for high/ very high intrance speed if comperd to porker due to the fysiks of the cars. Well if you got the carcontrol its not to stressful to come in to fast whit nighter a porker or CSL, its counterstear and full gas as we know to sort it out, even in CSL, but porker lose grip befor CSL in these aspects. But if you lack(dont got) the carcontrol and back reflexes you nead to brake fast and hard directly when begining to slid. This will absolutley minimum the damage and if done in the vid the car would most likley as it a hammer(engine back) just spun round but likley to stay on tarmack and not hit wall.

The reason to do this if you lack the control is in vid, it goes nasty. Its often no problems to master the first slid, its the rebouns slid that are so dangerus as we saw it just. So if we not sure in our selves that we can ride it out(if we not tried the limit plenty befor), we better brake hard when it begin, to be better of in the end.
If you you used to the rear comming at you and its in you reflexes, thers no nead to panik brake when it starts, as you know it from before you sort it out and not leting the tricky rebounse slidt get to you. But all things can happed, but its in genral.

But as all said its not always we do what we want. We are in full control on top of the world riding out powerslides and all, just untill the day we are NOT. And that day is not funny, we nead to be very humbel, soner or later we end up in a situation.
No matter what we or the car are made of.
Glad to se driver was ok.