RS6 or M5?

[newmarketnow]

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=68174[/URL]

:argue:

[Erik]

No argument.

:addict:

[Aronis]

It's really getting to be a silly comparison.

For performance the 2006 M5 will outdo the 2003 RS6. It's really not a proper comparison! 3 years difference in technology and refinement.

But the real question is when will BMW put out an all-wheel-drive M3 and M5? That will put Audi back 20 years! Just look what Audi is doing to combat BMW - REAR BIASED ALLWHEEL DRIVE. Sound Familiar? IE Rear Wheel Drive overall better performance.

But for now the RS6 will crush any BMW in the snow! or Ice! For now.

Of course mine is sitting in the shop outperforming the cart the mechanic uses to roll under it to work on it....NOT...

Mike

[tailpipe]

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing how the latest S6 stacks up against the M5. Sure it'll be down on horsepower, but it will be able to put its power down better thanks to AWD. Once the new RS6 arrives, then it'll be game over for the M5 altogether. The nearest BMW gets to an RS model is the X5 4.6i or the 535i with AWD. Neither has a system that's better than Audi's.

[CarbonFibre]

The S6 is no match for the M5 unless you're launching in the snow or something. On a normal road, the monster of an M5 will beat the S6 in every which way. I don't think BMW will be using AWD on any M models anytime soon if ever.

[eazy]

Originally posted by CarbonFibre
The S6 is no match for the M5 unless you're launching in the snow or something. On a normal road, the monster of an M5 will beat the S6 in every which way.
Even in normal-mode with 400 hp?

[CarbonFibre]

Originally posted by eazy
Even in normal-mode with 400 hp?
Why would you compare them under those conditions? I guess you could use D mode instead of S or Tiptronic on the S6 too, but what would be the point?

[luxmis]

The New BMW M5 and the RS6 are 2 very different cars, your choise will depend on your proirities.

You have e better overall torque (due to the turbo) in the RS6, and on 4 wheels where as in the M5 you have much more power at high revs and on 2 wheels only.

If you like "fun" when driving the M5 will be the choise, if you want security and high Torque, the RS6 will be the choice.

Obviously there are many more issues to consider, but for car freaks like most of us in this forum, I think most of us will make our choise on the above mentioned criterias.


have fun,
Jan

[eazy]

Originally posted by CarbonFibre
Why would you compare them under those conditions? I guess you could use D mode instead of S or Tiptronic on the S6 too, but what would be the point?
You wrote: "On a normal road, the monster of an M5 will beat the S6 in every which way."

So, did the M5 also beat the S6 in normal-mode?

[Aronis]

First of all, unless you run BMW, how could you deny the logic in adding awd to the Mcars.

The rest of the world WANNABE M'cars (RS's, M45, etc, etc) are doing it! The HUGE torque MB's do it! If BMW does AWD in an M car (either M5, M3 or the silly M - X5) it will set the bar sooooo high......

It's the logical choice.

As far as compairing the M5 in M mode or the neutered less than M mode, it's silly. Its like comparing the RS6 with Turbos off vs non-M mode M5. What's the point. Compare both STOCK at their Best, the rest is silly...why not compair a weight stripped RS6 with only a drivers seat and Ear Bugs for an IPOD for music to an M5 with the inlaws in the back seat!

LOL.

I love both cars. The M's and the RS's.

Mike

[CarbonFibre]

Originally posted by Aronis
First of all, unless you run BMW, how could you deny the logic in adding awd to the Mcars.

The rest of the world WANNABE M'cars (RS's, M45, etc, etc) are doing it! The HUGE torque MB's do it! If BMW does AWD in an M car (either M5, M3 or the silly M - X5) it will set the bar sooooo high......

It's the logical choice.


I still don't understand the argument I suppose. Adding AWD to the M cars would increase their weight, which would have an adverse effect on handling dynamics. This is not something they would like. Does MB AMG have any AWD models besides the SUV ones? I guess the R class is sort of a car.

[Ruergard]

The M5 is a great car indeed... but after all. The torque in the RS6 and the beautiful quattro system takes it out. And I can have it as a avant! :dance:

And I don't get stuck in the snow in the winter when heading to the alps! :D



:addict:

[TaTaPiRaTa]

Originally posted by mayheN
The M5 is a great car indeed... but after all. The torque in the RS6 and the beautiful quattro system takes it out. And I can have it as a avant! :dance:
And I don't get stuck in the snow in the winter when heading to the alps! :D
:addict:

YES, AVANT if you have family and quattro if you have 5 months of winter.

[Aronis]

I thought the AMG wagon has awd?

Yes it would add some weight to the Mcars but I think they will head that way soon anyway.

I bought my RS6 because it's an AWD car with balls. Don't you think BMW would like those customers bacK?

Mike

[Erik]

I can't see either MB (AMG) or BMW (M) fit AWD to their cars.
Especially BMW.

The only thing that could change that is if the customers (in the US) suddenly requested that but it's not on the map at the moment as far as I can see.

[CarbonFibre]

Originally posted by Aronis
I bought my RS6 because it's an AWD car with balls. Don't you think BMW would like those customers bacK?
It's not worth it as the people who need AWD for these specific cars are probably already Audi owners, and the few BMW enthusiasts who happened to get an Audi or some other car for AWD and would get an M car in AWD if it were available is minimal. It's not worth the trouble cost-wise and, again, would be incompatible with the M division's philosophies on how they build their vehicles.

[rks838]

I agree, the "wannabe M cars" are, well, wannabe M cars - they use real-wheel drive. This is the dominant theory, that the extra agility is better than the traction of all-wheel drive. The CLS55, E55, STS-V, CTS-V, S-Type R, they're all rear-wheel drive. The M45 is not quite an M5-shooter. MB and BMW aren't going to switch to all-wheel drive for their performance models anytime soon, but if things change, things change...

[DaytonaGreyRS4]

My opinion is unbiased as I like both Audi / BMW.

E60 M5 all the way... and some!

[5000S old skool]

IDK about AWD in an M car... the xi system is very complicated because it is built on a RWD chassis.. If they were to make an AWD M3 or M5 the drivetrain loss would much greater than that of a Quattro RS car...

I also think that the xi system in an M car would break with all the power... Trucks and SUV's use a similar AWD setup, but if u go too fast on 4WD... you can snap an axel...

At least thats how I see it, if i am wrong please feel free to enlighten me with some engineering facts...:asian:

[Aronis]

There is little question that Audi, and Subaru for that matter, has a leg up on BMW for AWD engineering, but BMW can do it!

Just consider this for example, this months Car and Driver reports BMW working on a Dual Clutch Transmission like the DSG! I am sure that BMW will not only achieve this but theirs may be better! I have driven a DSG car (GTI) and it's amazingly fast shifting.

So if they are not above copying another GOOD, HELL MAKE THAT GREAT IDEA, then they will/can/would make an AWD system more like Audi if the current XI drive cannot handle the torque!

Look at Acura! Why did they make the RL AWD (only way it comes)? Why does MB have 4matic in all models? Why did BMW bring back AWD (albet in the X5 first)?

They WANT US....AUDI customers....and if they want to compete with the S8, S6, S4 and RS car's for customers they MUST MAKE AN M Car with AWD.

Mike

One last thing - if I recall - the RS4 is rear wheel drive biased.

[Aronis]

Oh forgot - S4 comes more "Loaded" than the M3 - infact you cant even get NAV with the M3 or 3 series cars! And they are "NEW" models a couple years ago. The fully loaded S4 with NAV/Blue tooth, etc is still 10 grand cheaper than the M3!

BMW knows who they want....and they want to keep customers away from Audi.

Mike

[5000S old skool]

Originally posted by Aronis
One last thing - if I recall - the RS4 is rear wheel drive biased.

Yes the Diff. sends more power and torque to the rear wheels, but it still uses that Torsen center differential... which is crucial for REAL AWD high-performace cars... The torsen is used on a front-drive longitudinal platform.... BMW and MB's AWD systems cant use a torsen because of the front engine RWD platform...

[007]

Originally posted by 5000S old skool
Yes the Diff. sends more power and torque to the rear wheels, but it still uses that Torsen center differential... which is crucial for REAL AWD high-performace cars... The torsen is used on a front-drive longitudinal platform.... BMW and MB's AWD systems cant use a torsen because of the front engine RWD platform...

The engine of the new RS4 is right up at the front, and the gearbox is almost right at the back, so that the balence of the car is perfect. There is more power sent to the rear wheels because it will help cure the silight understeer problem that there was with the old car, which I own. Sending more power to the rear should also give the driver more confidence when really pushing the car around corners, as there will be more controllable oversteer than there will be more dangerous understeer.

007:rs4addict

[audirs6sport]

Originally posted by Aronis
First of all, unless you run BMW, how could you deny the logic in adding awd to the Mcars.

The rest of the world WANNABE M'cars (RS's, M45, etc, etc) are doing it! The HUGE torque MB's do it! If BMW does AWD in an M car (either M5, M3 or the silly M - X5) it will set the bar sooooo high......

It's the logical choice.

As far as compairing the M5 in M mode or the neutered less than M mode, it's silly. Its like comparing the RS6 with Turbos off vs non-M mode M5. What's the point. Compare both STOCK at their Best, the rest is silly...why not compair a weight stripped RS6 with only a drivers seat and Ear Bugs for an IPOD for music to an M5 with the inlaws in the back seat!

LOL.

I love both cars. The M's and the RS's.

Mike



AMEN! :D :0:

[bober3]

:addict: rs6 is the best sport sedan ever made


m5 is fast but the smg transmission shift like shift

[tailpipe]

This is all interesting stuff but a few facts...

Audi's Torsen 3 AWD differential is now in its third iteration. As such, it has been tweaked to deliver all weather traction and now a more rear-wheel bias - although on the limit all Audi suspensions are tuned to understeer in a progressive and predictable way.

BMW's X-drive is no where near as sophisticated in delivering reliable traction or splitting the torque. It is heavier and less flexible. To put it bluntly, BMW has relatively little AWD experience.

Audi's next generation platform, the PL47 architecture, utilises a new means of transmitting power to the front axle while bringing the engine further to the rear. I've even heard talk of the motor sitting behind the front axle. In other words, the weight balance will be much improved. Audi's new system will be lighter than the current set-up.

In short, any Audi Quattro with AWD will be a MORE CAPABLE car than any AWD BMW.

Audi is also now developing its second generation DSG gearbox (for longitudinally-mounted engines) and is at least 5 years ahead of BMW in this area. It is unlikely that Audi will license such technology to BMW at least in the short-term.

So, in summary, if you want a beautifully balanced rear-drive car with a stick shift, go for a BMW. If you want a all-weather performance and automatic go for an Audi.

Apologies if this seems like a predictable response, but this is an Audi site.

[chutia]

Very thoughtful response indeed, tailpipe. Brilliant.

Neither car is the "best" or "better" car. It depends upon what your priorities are and the weather conditions that predominate your proximity, among other considerations. Personal taste has a lot to do with the choice. As previously noted by another comment, the RS6 is 2003, the M5 2006 circa. One thing there may/may not be much to choose between (don't know): both probably have a lot of reliability and component downtime issues that the dealers don't know how or cannot fix. Which again brings it back to at least on salient issue: daily reliable driver duty???