EVO: RS4 vs M3 vs C55 [Archive] - RS6.com

QuattroFun

February 5th, 2006, 09:05

Yeah, the review is on the whole very good and fair and it manages to point out the differences in character between three cars as well as the young author's personal preferences (something subscribers have been able to watch since he came on board) very clearly. But fact remains: 5 years out, M3 CS is still an excellent car, which is quite an achievement.

But usually our friends from the other side are very worked up with 0-200 and track times as equalling how good a car is - Evo is not, which is a good thing. However, this time there is all silence from our number-minded friends about the Bedford Autodrome track times for the three cars and earlier reference time for new M5...why? No, actually the follow-up story on raising the bar and how fast the 911 Carrera 4 and especially the Evo IX MR are on the track compared to RS4 is intriguing. The RS4 is too lardy - Audi are you listening?

:rs4addict

7:53 RS6

February 5th, 2006, 09:29

This gets me thinking of the new M3 comming, as mentioned above and i agree the 5 year old M3 is hanging in way god.

Im sure BMW have some thing special for us in new M3 as well.

tailpipe

February 5th, 2006, 18:06

I'm very cynical about BMW in the Uk at the moment, because they spend the most amount on print advertiisng versus any other premium manufacturer.

When you slag a car off in an editorial pice their immediate reaction is to drop all advertisng for it. Smaller fish like EVO know which side their bread is buttered, so...

Take the launch of the new Lexus IS. Top Gear was the only magazine to give it the first place it deserved versus the 3-Series.

Actually, the EVO article misses the whole point that you don't really understand how good any car is in 15 minutes or 2 days. It takes at least a year or rather 4 seasons.

Which is why I prefer think the Audi S4 is way ahead of my M3 even before I get my hands on an RS4 Avant.

QuattroFun

February 5th, 2006, 19:36

To say that car mags are greased is a stretch although they may be mindful of the reaction from manufacturers in the way they render and word their verdict. I believe that EVO genuinely feels that the M3 CS is more satisfying to them than the RS4. However, the fact remains that journalists are humans just like the rest of us and they have their intrinsic preferences and expectations of what makes up a good car. Most "tough" car guys like, personally drive and are supposed to like "bitching and hairy" cars, which allow them to show off their supposed and actual driving skills.

That Lexus is not preferred by most mags over the 300 series is not corruption - ultimately, it is a matter of what you like and value. Lexus is just about what Audi was 5 years ago in terms of goals and set-up - only better of course - and the reaction is the same as it was back then. And yes, the new 300 series is overall somewhat better than the improved and more sporty B7 A4, which is just what you would expect with progress (although UK obsession with ride and summer dry oversteer is perculiar).

For most even remotely unbiased people BMW/RWD fanatics aside, the new RS4 is simply and plainly somewhat better than the old but still brilliant M3 in revised CS trim. Will the next M3 better the RS4? Very probably, but then again soon comes along the B8 RS5/RS4 and thereafter ...

tailpipe

February 6th, 2006, 12:02

What makes me most cynical about BMW's latest 3-Series, is that they have so obviously tried to take cost out of it. The number of parts shared with other models is understandable, but what disappoints me is that the trim has become so cheap and ugly. BMW doors no longer shut with such a resonantly satisfying clunk. Things they got right on the E30 3-Series, which was a stunning car in its day, like the demister for the screen are less well resolved on today's E90. It's a cheap car, dreessed as an expensive one. By comparison, the Lexus has an objectively high standard of quality that runs through it at an entirely different level.

Everyone blathers on about the driving expereince of a 3-Series. This is utter nonsense because it really isn't a differentiating factor in the real world; it's just marketing hype. in fact, 90% of owners will never explore anything like the limits of their cars. The 10% of owners that do, probably cane their cars for about 10% of the total time they own them. Truthfully, you can only explore a 3-Series finer points on race track. Therefore, the weight afforded to cornering and handling of cars by most road testers is dis-proportional to how they will actually be enjoyed.

For both the above reasons, Audis are a better bet in my book. As for the greasing of journalists being a stretch, welcome to the real world, buddy.

Rstr

February 6th, 2006, 13:32

My wife's next car will be a Lexus. Because they make good cars and their dealerships are great. :0:

My Audi dealer is not so great... :rolleyes: I'm really sick of arrogant dealerships. The only thing keeping me in the Audi fold is the :rs4addict

Benman

February 6th, 2006, 15:53

Originally posted by tailpipe

For both the above reasons, Audis are a better bet in my book. As for the greasing of journalists being a stretch, welcome to the real world, buddy.
Because politics are not limited to the political arena...

Ben:addict:

gazzab

February 23rd, 2006, 23:09

This thread reminds me of the Journo's and their preference for the manual over the SMG in the M3, it takes more than a day or two in the SMG M3 to get use to it. Love my SMG, shame about the company.

Gazzab

jasaretta

February 24th, 2006, 02:29

Originally posted by Rstr
My wife's next car will be a Lexus. Because they make good cars and their dealerships are great. :0:

My Audi dealer is not so great... :rolleyes: I'm really sick of arrogant dealerships. The only thing keeping me in the Audi fold is the :rs4addict

You dont need to resell the dealer......if you are going to be a LExus you may as well save some money and buy a Toyota.

5000S old skool

February 24th, 2006, 04:04

one thing is for sure..... the next M3 will leave the RS4 begging fro mercy... thats when Audi will realize "we should have sticked with turbo!!"

Fab

February 24th, 2006, 07:48

keep on dreaming, keep on:rs4addict

Benman

February 24th, 2006, 15:04

Originally posted by jasaretta
if you are going to be a LExus you may as well save some money and buy a Toyota.
One could say the same about Audi/VW...

Ben:addict:

AndyBG

February 24th, 2006, 15:23

Originally posted by 5000S old skool
..... the next M3 will leave the RS4 begging fro mercy...

???

WHY?

???

QuattroFun

February 24th, 2006, 17:31

Hmm, some of us take mag reviews way too seriously and place too much weight on a subjective summary ranking rather than the stand-alone verdict itself and suitability to reader.

Now, the current M3 CS is no doubt the right choice for some drivers and next M3 will probably be great for RWD fans and - relative to RS4 - with equal amount of power and less weight it will probably be 1-1.5s quicker to 200 km/h in ideal conditions and marginally faster on closed twisty circuits with equal tyres. So what? It is not here yet and the RS4 appears very, very promising on all accounts.

Even Autocar and its Audi hater No1 & BMW lover No1 in the UK, Steve Sutcliffe, was against all odds very positive on the RS4 - although he in the end of course picked the Cayman and M3 CS ahead of it if not the SLK 55 AMG. Audi was the straightline ace also he was of course able to drive the M3 marginally faster on the chosen track - much contrary to EVO. Even many of the good MB people understood to read and interpret the AMS test of C55 against RS4 as they should had given the character difference between the cars.

:rs4addict

Benman

February 24th, 2006, 18:21

Originally posted by QuattroFun
Hmm, some of us take mag reviews way too seriously and place too much weight on a subjective summary ranking rather than the stand-alone verdict itself and suitability to reader.

Even Autocar and its Audi hater No1 & BMW lover No1 in the UK, Steve Sutcliffe, was against all odds very positive on the RS4 -

:rs4addict

Agreed. Remember that the writers are not infalible. They are not above letting their prejudices influence their decisions. Some are pro or con certain vehicles.

And I agree with Andy. Why will the next M3 "leave the RS4 begging for mercy..."?

Yeah, it might best it, but begging for mercy? Hardly.

Ben:addict: :rs4addict

5000S old skool

February 24th, 2006, 19:49

ok ok maybe i did take "begging for mercy" a little too far... However, even though the RS4 is by far my favorite of the two, the M3 will be superior in terms of track times... maybe even country roads...

... I guess im just depressed that Audi's new direction is high-strung N/A instead of neck breaking turbo....

Benman

February 24th, 2006, 20:43

Originally posted by 5000S old skool

... I guess im just depressed that Audi's new direction is high-strung N/A instead of neck breaking turbo....
It's ok, we understand.:D

Most all of us want TT motors, but you can't always get what you want...:cheers:

Ben:addict:

rks838

February 24th, 2006, 22:46

The next M3 will have 5 more horsepower than the RS4. I don't see a huge difference in acceleration, b/c the new RS4 only weighs ~3500lbs., while the old M3 weighed 3300lbs. and is likely to gain a little weight, as always. Even if the M3 is a little faster, it likely won't be one of Jeremy Clarkson's "10 best engines ever made" like that of the RS4. Turbos or not, this is one hell of an engine.

Handling and braking wise, I don't know...the old M3 was at the top here, but the RS4 has been highly praised during its launch as well.

gazzab

February 24th, 2006, 23:29

I think "horses for courses"

Gazzab

jasaretta

February 25th, 2006, 00:50

They both are (will be) great cars. Personally the look of the M3 has never turned me on. And I love quattro.

But you cant fault the M3 - it's a great car. I think when yo get down to comparing to feats of engineering like the M3 and the RS4 it will come down to personal preference.

skratch

February 25th, 2006, 01:55

Will the next m3 use the 7spd smg that the current m5 has?

I read somewhere that the next csl will have 440 hp and the reg m3 will have 425hp

these cars are moving farther and farther away from each other

there was a rumore online that the next csl will not have rear seats

totally different cars

ps my brother just bought an 01 s4 :)

The first thing he said was I can't wait to race you lol

I love both cars but when I drive the audi I dont feel as connected to the road as my m3 feels

that alone for me dosnt matter if the audi had twice the power,Its the way I feel one with the car that makes me love my m3 so much

gazzab

February 25th, 2006, 02:18

Skratch,

I suspect the whole package from Audi is better, I am changing from my M3 to RS4. Obviously the new M3 may change all that.

Gazzab

AndyBG

February 25th, 2006, 03:07

One very interesting thing is hapening here.

While whole motoring world is gloryfaying new RS4, and wehn i say ''all motoring world'' i mean that, even well nown Audi no-lover, Jeremy Clarkson sad nothing but best about it, we are complaining.

Yes it's true that everybody expected turbo, but times are changing and with this kind of exhibition Audi shown to everyone of us (them) that it is puting its game to a higher level.

For the first time in the some Audi review you can read words like:
agile, exotic, pasion, precision...

in stead of:
chunky, bulky, understear...

Maybe the next M3 is going to have 5 hp more, so what, Audi is got into their ''ring'' (MB & BMW) and won the first round, 11 more to go. They (MB & BMW) never had enough courige to get in to ''fight'' with Audi on its field so Audi is coming to them, and its coming VERY fast, just stay tuned and watch.

skratch

February 25th, 2006, 04:40

I don't agree with you about BMW an MB having to get into AUDI's playing field

you see by your own words AUDI had to catch up to there stadards

its about time we dont here about how heavy that audi is and how the feel isnt up to par.

AUDI is getting into BMWs and MBs ring

not the other way around

The next thing is ditch the quatro and have a direct competitor to the m3

see BMW has not changed its heritege at all with there m3 It will always be about high revving NA power rear wheel drive 50/50 weight so on

and it will never be all wheel drive.

I can see AUDI making a real wheel drive s car in the future to compete in the track junky market the m3 has.

AndyBG

February 25th, 2006, 14:04

First, i never said that Audi has to ''catch up their standards'', i said Audi is getting closer to their standards, or should i say, ''geting the best from both worlds''

Second, it seems to me that you should change yor favourite car-maker becouse Audi wiil never loose ''quattro'', it is their trademark, and above that it is one big advantage in everyday world that this cars encountering daily. After all, this cars are driven mainly as passanger cars, not ''track'' cars.
Even their new flagship, the ''supercar'' R8, is ''quattro''.
Not to mention some others (Porsche, Lambo', Bentey, Bugatti...)

Then you said:

''...The next thing is to ditch quattro and have a direct competitor to M3...''

Where from all this ''frustration'' comes,

IF YOU NEED M3, BUY M3, DON'T ASK FROM RS4 TO BECOME ONE,

reading some posts it looks like some poeple have bean banned from buying BMW and now they want some other car that is going to become BMW with other badge.

Audi is on its tracks, making cars on a certain way and i like that.

Not meant to be ''hard'' on anybody.

All best,

ANDY

Fab

February 25th, 2006, 14:20

:0: :0: :0: :0:

skratch

February 25th, 2006, 17:22

Audi believe it or not is changing.

"11 more to go"one of those things for Audi to compete with the m3 is to offer an option for a rwd s car

they went with more power to the rear wheels with the new rs4

see if BMW or wanted AUDI's share of the market they would make turbo,awd M cars

Audi ditched the turbos this time around and FINALLY has chaines instead of belts in there engines.

there are also putting more power to the back end.

Ill bet the next rs4 will bring the engine even further towards the middle of the car to get rid of the front end unballance the old s4s had

something BMW has been doing for decades.

QuattroFun

February 25th, 2006, 17:50

Well, well..here we go again, this is still not the bimmer forum you know. And - as said so many time before over here - those who want bmws: buy them, drive them, be happy, be proud and be busy enough to refrain from whining nonsense over here.

But, Audi sure is changing and that is not a bad thing although the future direction is not clear cut for Audi. Sure, weight is a problem and to some extent also weight distribution - but, thank god, Quattro will and must stay and 40%-60% is the max with the current weight distribution and the B8 will not and need not be 50-50% weight so no RWD - and no need for it. Lambo 30%-70% only possible in mid-engined cars. It can also be that the high revving NA engine is a one off for the RS4 and R8 whilst future versions like RS6 still work with TT and maybe in the future also TDI.

Me like NA engines WITH QUATTRO and let us hope that subsidiary Lambo and largest shareholder Porsche engineering influence will increase with great results ahead.

:0:

AndyBG

February 25th, 2006, 21:10

Originally posted by skratch
...Audi to compete with the m3 ...

Here you go again, this looks that you really love what Munchen based factory doing, and that is ok with me, i have great respect for them.

I just don't see the point, Audi is just don't make that kind of car, it never built it and i hope it never will!

When you are talking about Audi changing and ''copying'' things from their counterparts, i have to remind you about one very interesying thing.
Some 15 years ago wehn Audi started mass production of ''quattro'' cars with diesel engines, MB and BMW chefs laughted and gived statements about some funny car from Ingolstad that has weight equal to a tractor and burns same fuel as one.

Then, 15 years latter, 70-80 % of their total sales are cars that have four wheel drive and diesel engines.

Audi is have one very nice factory moto, that is,

'' VORSPRUNG DURCH TECHINK ''

That means ''improvement trough technic'',

and best exemple for that improvement is that Audi puting N/A motor while others are puting turbo, for me that just shows Audis great improvement and riching level were others can't follow its pace, don't forget that 4.2 FSI is often reffered as one of the best N/A engines ever...

To cut all this talking,

if you like BMW, get one, leave Audi in its own ''mud''.

Once again i would like to say that i didn't meant to be hard on anybody.

All best,

ANDY

gazzab

February 26th, 2006, 00:35

It is good to have healthy debate, I think the M3 and RS4 are both brilliant cars in their own right. A a current M3 owner and a prospective RS4 owner I am excited. My main reason for changing from the M3 is the company, brilliant car but the company has treated me as a second rate customer. I hope Audi are "different." The advantages in changing to me appear to be the more modern and appealing cabin of the RS4. Both external appearances are dated. The V8 sounds incredible. For every day driving I don't see a winner between the M3 and RS4. On the track it will be down to individual preferences. The new M3 may trump the RS4 on the track, but I don't see the difference being major.

In looking at a replacement for the M3, apart from changing to Porsche the RS4 stood out, also the "boss" insisted on a five seater.

At the end of the day it is great to see healthy competition between the different marques, it can only be better for the consummer.

Gazzab

skratch

February 26th, 2006, 02:25

Originally posted by AndyBG
Here you go again, this looks that you really love what Munchen based factory doing, and that is ok with me, i have great respect for them.

I just don't see the point, Audi is just don't make that kind of car, it never built it and i hope it never will!

and best exemple for that improvement is that Audi puting N/A motor while others are puting turbo, for me that just shows Audis great improvement and riching level were others can't follow its pace, don't forget that 4.2 FSI is often reffered as one of the best N/A engines ever...

To cut all this talking,

if you like BMW, get one, leave Audi in its own ''mud''.

Once again i would like to say that i didn't meant to be hard on anybody.

All best,

ANDY

Andy I'm trying to have a friendly debate here.

We have 2 AUDI's in my family and 2 BMWs

I don't know why you are being very one way baised towards one car and then talking smack about the m3 in other posts.

then saying there not ment to be compaired

enless you'v been living under a rock for the past 10 years the BMW M3 and the AUDI S4 have been the two best rivals to go up against each other.

every kid with an s4 here compaires his car to an M3

maybe its different over where your at but these 2 cars here are pretty much in the same class.

all im saying is that its good that AUDI is stepping up the notch on BMW that is what we as car enthuists want.In the end we end up with better cars from both companies.

why do you feel its a bad thing for AUDI to try and be more like the M3(The new rs4 is one hell of an inprovement in that direction)If the next rs4 has rwd they may just get another former m3 lover to join the

:rs4addict side

AndyBG

February 26th, 2006, 13:21

[QUOTE]Originally posted by skratch
[B

...talking smack about the m3 in other posts....

...then saying there not ment to be compaired...

[/B][/QUOTE

???

I NEVER said they are not meant to be compared!

R(S)4 is M3's direct rival BUT NOT THE SAME CAR.

If they were same there would not be anything to compare.

Maybe the best soluton for next RS4 is that AUDI go and buy couple of M3's, put them in their factory and copy them 100%.

I just don't now where else you could end-up with yours ''ideal perspective'' for AUDI.

all best,

ANDY

5000S old skool

February 26th, 2006, 13:54

Originally posted by skratch

The next thing is ditch the quattro and have a direct competitor to the m3

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!

Sorry to be conservative, but... There some things that make an Audi an AUDI... Quattro and Turbo.... That is why I like Audi

There are some things that make a BMW a BMW.... High Revs and RWD.... That is why I like BMW....

There are some things that make an AMG and AMG... luxury mixed in with a big torquey power plant.... Highway beast..

BMW is meant for the Ring and Audi is meant for the wet, sany, swooping roads of the country side... It's just bad enough Audi dropped Turbo.. if they drop quattro... then you can call me a "vintage Audi fan"....