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View Full Version : Why I'm thinking long and hard about new S6 versus new RS4



tailpipe
January 31st, 2006, 19:23
I've heard quite a few cynical remarks about the available horsepower in the new S6 versus its weight, especially compared to the RS4. But here's the thing I just realised: RS4 engine is a 4.2 litre V-8 at its highest state of tune. The S6 has a V-10 quite possibly at its lowest state of tune. But hang on a second, isn't 400+ hbp is a lot of horses in any car? - who cares! You should easily be able to chip the S6 to coax 480-500 bhp out of it. I reckon new Rs6 will simply be a highly tuned version of the S6, with about 550 bhp, when it appears in 18 months time, so why not do it now by beefing-up an S6? What do you think?

RXBG
January 31st, 2006, 19:56
can't simply chip a NA engine and get that kind of gain. you'd have to put in an exhaust with downpipes, chip, intake, and do some internal engine work and raise the RPM max to get 550 hp out of it. my guess is that the RS6 will be a HO NA version of the S6 motor (a la S4---> RS4) +/- 5.5 liter engine displacement increase. i really do not believe it will be turboed.

Qisha
January 31st, 2006, 22:30
i really do not believe it will be turboed.

It will be! :D

Klint
January 31st, 2006, 22:49
Everything is going mental - Twin Turbo V10 in the next RS6, do you know how easy that would be to bring it into the gallactic horsepower territory? :MTM:

Benman
January 31st, 2006, 22:49
Originally posted by RXBG
can't simply chip a NA engine and get that kind of gain.
Yes and no.

Tailpipe makes a good point. Afterall, this is the exact same motor from the Gallardo (which makes 500hp). I doubt that Audi went to a lot of trouble to reengineer the motor just so it will make less power. Probably just set a lot of electronic "limiters" for the majority of the power loss and torque curve. Like the article on the S8, same motor but tuned differently for different cars.

That said, a chip will make some of that back, but not all of it. I don't know tailpipe. What do you think...

Ben:addict:

freerider
January 31st, 2006, 23:15
Originally posted by Benman
Like the article on the S8, same motor but tuned differently for different cars.

Ben:addict:

Actually, the S8 engine is quite different from the one in the Gallardo. Not just some changes in the ECU. There are also quite some changes made to the mechanics (FSI for example). I don't know how different the engine in the S6 is from the one in the S8 of Gallardo, but I"m quite sure it's closer to the one in the S8. Getting the hp number up will cost you some money.

If the next RS6 will have turbo's, it will be one hell of a dangerous car. As said before, minor changes will make the car have enormous amount of power. (without too much trouble into the 600-700 hp range). I love supersedans, but that's just too much for most people to handle. Quattro or not. If that's the case, I wouldn't think about the fuel prices, I'd rather worry about the prices of tyres (and insurance).

Anyway, I'm just waiting what the future brings. Everybody knows what car furfulls which function (S6 luxury fast sedan, RS4 more of a racer). The choice is for the buyer.

Greetz Johan

Benman
January 31st, 2006, 23:51
Originally posted by freerider
Actually, the S8 engine is quite different from the one in the Gallardo. Not just some changes in the ECU. There are also quite some changes made to the mechanics (FSI for example).

Not to mention the different Bore and Stroke as well. Didn't mean to sound like it was just an ECU deal, but my point was the block and main components are all the same, but it has been tuned for different needs. And yes, the S6 V10 is much closer to the S8 V10 than it is to the Gallardo. But I think tailpipe still has a point that an ECU upgrade will get a lot more than the usual NA chip provides since this motor was intentionally "held back".:cheers:

Ben:addict:

RXBG
February 1st, 2006, 01:19
benman, i think you have a valid insight, but, on a different level of discussion, i just don't think that a turbocharged V10 is likely. i hate to say it but it is just too much. what mercedes is doing with the new S65 is almost an insult to the senses. where is the dynamic finesse in that car?

a gallardo engine witrh FSI (my opinion of what the RS6 will have, along with a lighter body) would make abolut 550 hp. just right, imo. others may disagree.

this is the takeoff for another point of contention for me. unless the R8 has 4 seats i don't see how it could have a V10 that makes 500 hp or more. the recently update gallardo only makes 520. and the replacement has to be at least 2 years off. the murcielago is due to be replaced before the gallardo is.

Benman
February 1st, 2006, 01:27
Originally posted by RXBG
on a different level of discussion, i just don't think that a turbocharged V10 is likely. i hate to say it but it is just too much.

I think you're right. I hate to say it as well, but I don't see it happening either. As tailpipe pointed out, the motor of the RS 6 will more than likely just be a very highly tuned version of the NA S6/8 motor. TT V10 seems too over the top.

A real shame though... I love my TT motor...:cry:

Ben:addict:

tailpipe
February 1st, 2006, 10:57
Wow, this thread has been busy while I've been sleeping!

Benman,

I agree very much with what you say. The Gallardo V-10 is an astonishing engine - vastly under-rated IMHO and certainly the equal of BMW's mighty 5.0 litre V-10 with one added bonus: it's more reliable. The addition of an FSI head simply makes a good starting point even better. As you say, remapping the ECU should reclaim a worthwhile incremental % of the power artificially lost.

That said I ALSO agree with RXBG: it will probably be difficult to push an S6 beyond 480 bhp without major tweaks at considerable cost. The question is how much power can you easily reclaim? I think that even taking it up to 460 bhp would be a worthwhile effort.

BTW, and I think Hans (Iceman) will back me up here, Audi will NOT be putting twin turbos in the RS6. I know this will disappoint quite a few current RS6 owners. But they've tested such a set up, reliably getting 600+ bhp out of it....

O:MTM:

...but the extra weight penalty mitigates the performance gain making a tuned-up version of the NA base V-10 unit a better option.

The other point to make is that you probably don't want much more than 550 bhp in any A6 model. The chassis can't handle it, neither can most drivers! So Audi is probably trying to work out the best way to deliver 550 bhp efficiently.

Also slightly off-topic. Now that Formula One has abandoned V-10s, the pressure to put them in road cars has eased off. I've even heard of Audi testing a new diesel V-12 in the A6, (obviously a motor related to the new engine in the R10 racer). We're talking about tidal waves of power and torque, but also about impressively frugal performance. Again 600 bhp.

This raises an interesting question. What engine would you prefer in the RS6:

1. V-10 NA with 550+ bhp
2. V-10 TT with 550+ bhp
3. V-12 Diesel with 550 + bhp

Qisha
February 1st, 2006, 11:04
Audi will NOT be putting twin turbos in the RS6

You are right, Audi will not set-up the new RS6 with a V10 Bi-Turbo BUT the quattro GmbH will. :D


This raises an interesting question. What engine would you prefer in the RS6:

a 4.2 TDI V8 with ~300HP

...hey wait a minute, this one is coming. :D

Erik
February 1st, 2006, 11:06
V10TT :hahahehe:

mr
February 1st, 2006, 12:26
V10 TDI TT would be great -> highly tuned motor out of the Touareg.
I'd love to see a high - performance sedan with such a kind of a diesel engine.

I just see the loads of torque being a big problem for the transmission and all the drive shafts.
well ... maybe with some parts from Bugatti ...

we'll see

just my 2cnt

rgds
mr

Benman
February 1st, 2006, 19:51
Originally posted by tailpipe


That said I ALSO agree with RXBG: it will probably be difficult to push an S6 beyond 480 bhp without major tweaks at considerable cost.


The other point to make is that you probably don't want much more than 550 bhp in any A6 model. The chassis can't handle it, neither can most drivers! So Audi is probably trying to work out the best way to deliver 550 bhp efficiently.



This raises an interesting question. What engine would you prefer in the RS6:

1. V-10 NA with 550+ bhp
2. V-10 TT with 550+ bhp
3. V-12 Diesel with 550 + bhp

I agree with that as well... but like you say, if you can get back the 460-480hp, then it's worth it!

Why can't the A6 handle 550+hp? If it can't, why test a V12 diesel then? Torque is harsher on a chassis than hp, no?

Just like Mitsu did with the Lancer, more welds, supports= stiffer chassis (didn't ur RS 6 have additional welds as well?). Add strategic welds and braces on A6= it can handle more power.

Which would I prefer?
V10TT:bow:

Which do I think it will get?
V10NA:(

Ben:addict:

minimad
February 27th, 2006, 06:07
V10 TT,
if Audi take snails away from RS6, it's like Porsche remove 911 TT from the line up to me. All power and handling issue are only the matter of costs.

CarbonFibre
February 27th, 2006, 06:18
Originally posted by tailpipe
This raises an interesting question. What engine would you prefer in the RS6:

1. V-10 NA with 550+ bhp
2. V-10 TT with 550+ bhp
3. V-12 Diesel with 550 + bhp
I'll say anyone in North America won't pick the diesel because a good engine like that probably won't be able to run on the diesel we have here.

Finnus
February 27th, 2006, 14:54
I'm with Benman - prefer V10 TT, expect V10 NA.


The question is how much power can you easily reclaim? I think that even taking it up to 460 bhp would be a worthwhile effort.

Tailpipe,

Back to your original question ... why would you take a chance with the S6 unless you were certain you could produce the desired 480-500hp result? Would you be satisfied with the 400 hp (or 440 or whatever) if you couldn't? In the US, mods void the warranty. How is it treated in the UK?

I guess it comes down to how much of a risk taker you are.

If $$ were no object and performance the only issue, I would get the RS4, then switch to the new RS6 when it comes. Just my $.02 ...

Finnus

:addict:

Benman
February 27th, 2006, 17:17
Originally posted by Finnus
Tailpipe,

Back to your original question ... why would you take a chance with the S6 unless you were certain you could produce the desired 480-500hp result?
Finnus

:addict:
I think I'm with Finnus. Especially after you got done driving and being so impressed with the RS 4. Just get that, no?

Ben:addict:

tailpipe
February 27th, 2006, 17:49
The S6 may only have 420 bhp (and if you believe the dyno tests the RS4 only has 390) but what the S6 has in spades is extraordinary torque and therefore tons of low down pulling power. The raw numbers alone do not tell the whole story.

I really do expect it to be a special machine and i certainly need to take a closer look at it. Right now it looks like i shall have a shiny new RS4 Avant in Sprint blue sitting on my driveway come June. (The RS4 looks best in loud colours in my opinion and I just love Sprint blue). But before I put my money where my mouth is, I'd like to check out the S6.

There's one other factor at play here: wife, 2 kids, dog and the need to travel 3 times a year by car from London to Italy and back.

AndyBG
February 27th, 2006, 19:06
Wehn is yor time deadline for putting order for RS4, and wehn you are going to test S6, Avant i presume?

5000S old skool
March 7th, 2006, 03:17
Originally posted by tailpipe
The S6 may only have 420 bhp (and if you believe the dyno tests the RS4 only has 390) but what the S6 has in spades is extraordinary torque and therefore tons of low down pulling power. The raw numbers alone do not tell the whole story.

I really do expect it to be a special machine and i certainly need to take a closer look at it. Right now it looks like i shall have a shiny new RS4 Avant in Sprint blue sitting on my driveway come June. (The RS4 looks best in loud colours in my opinion and I just love Sprint blue). But before I put my money where my mouth is, I'd like to check out the S6.

There's one other factor at play here: wife, 2 kids, dog and the need to travel 3 times a year by car from London to Italy and back.

RS4 Avant!! :rs4addict

BBGT2
March 7th, 2006, 03:36
Originally posted by RXBG
what mercedes is doing with the new S65 is almost an insult to the senses. where is the dynamic finesse in that car?



:eek: :eek: :eek: Huh ?

I dont get what you are trying to say with dynamic finesse.
What Mercedes is doing is whooping ass and taking names, albeit at a astounding price. My brother has a CL65 and the power that thing makes is SICKENING.
At highway speeds (60mph and above) he makes my RS6 look like its standing still.
Besides arent we driving a "highly modified" A6 4.2L V8 Quattro with a STEEP price increase.
As far as I am concerned if the next generation RS6 does NOT have a turbo I will look elsewhere for a fun sedan that is tuneable and NOT N/A.
The torque and the rush you get with a snailed engine is like none other.
That is IF Audi is even going to make one.

Bajo:addict:


PS.
Tailpipe I say go for the RS4 much better and much more aggresively styled as a "special" car should be.

tailpipe
March 7th, 2006, 11:54
Before committing to the RS4 Avant, i want to test drive an S6 Avant. I'm hearing very positive feedback about this car. Extremely refined for everyday use and an absolute firebreathing monster when you want it to be. 435 bhp instead of 420 bhp. Amazing new sports seats. It also looks so cool and understated, just as a high powered Audi should be. What's going to clinch the decision for me? MPG pure and simple.

:hahahehe: :applause:

Benman
March 7th, 2006, 16:42
Originally posted by tailpipe
MPG pure and simple.

:hahahehe: :applause:
:applause:

Yeah, well then it will be the RS 4 for sure!:D Cause there is no way a car with a bigger engine, weighing 400 some lbs more is going to get better fuel economy! Better just sign up for the RS 4 now.:hihi:

Bajo says RS 4, I'm with him...although maybe not on the Benz point.:D

Ben:addict:

tailpipe
March 7th, 2006, 19:07
Ben,

You're the best sales person Audi has got. You ought to work for Audi if you don't already. My dream garage, money no object, just in case you're wondering, would include the folllowing:

1. Ferrari 612 Scaglietti - simply the most gorgeous car there is
2. Audi RS4 Avant - fastest day-to-day, point-to-point car there is
3. Audi R8 with V10 - most reliable supercar
4. Range Rover Sport 4.0 TDI - Any day, any weather, any time
5. Mercedes-Benz SL--500 - gotta have a Merc
6. FIAT Cinquecento (original)- ultimate cute city car
7. Aston-Martin DB-9 - Every Englishman fancies himself as 007
8. Lexus LX-460 - Soon to be the ultimate luxury car
9. Lexus IS-250 - just love the way it looks
10. Audi A2 - Brilliant every-day city car in so many ways

Sorry for going off topic.

Benman
March 7th, 2006, 19:41
Originally posted by tailpipe
Ben,

You're the best sales person Audi has got. You ought to work for Audi if you don't already.
Technically, I'm the best sales person quattro has since I'm telling you to buy the RS 4 (quattro built) and not the S6 (Audi built). :D (I like quattro).:thumb:

As for the ultimate garage:

I'd change the Ferrari to a RUF, Range Rover TDI to a Q7 TDI (but of course;) ), the Fiat to anything else, and the Lexus 250 to the 350. :thumb:

Ben:addict:

Kev.S
March 7th, 2006, 20:35
I don't think you can compare the RS4 and S6 as they're completely different cars. If you want a small chuckable saloon go for the RS4, but if want you want is a very rapid large saloon, then the S6 or S8 have got to be the current choices.
I thought RS4 was going to be a good replacement for my RS6 until I sat in one and realised I'm just too big to feel comfortable in one on long journeys. For me, that settled the argument.