2006 Z06

[k2]

Watching Ebay for market price of the new Z06. Looks like they are going for anywhere from $2500 to $5000 over MSRP ($75K). Seems like a lot, but for Chevy lovers this is the pinnacle of sports cars I guess. Give it 6 mos and $3/gal. gas prices and they will be selling at invoice IMHO.

[Benman]

Originally posted by k2
($75K). Seems like a lot, but for Chevy lovers this is the pinnacle of sports cars I guess. Give it 6 mos and $3/gal. gas prices and they will be selling at invoice IMHO.
No way. These cars won't be selling for invoice even 2 years to come. You are correct when you say that $75K is a lot for a Chevy. But NO more so than $80K is for a new "A4" (RS 4).

Ford's GT (haven't seen ANY for less than $170K) is better looking, but will NOT in ANY way beat the new Z06 around the track. The Z06 will match or BEST all performance that the Ford GT can dish out. That goes double for the F430. The Z06 might wear a Chevy badge, but it is the BEST Bang for the Buck car EVER! I've driven the old Z06 and was very impressed. The new Corvette (standard) is almost as fast and MUCH more refined. The upcoming Z06 will be without any doubt, the finest Hi Po American car ever. Those across the Pond might laugh, but it will hold it's own against anything anyone makes. Period.

Ben:addict:

[k2]

Time will tell ... but I hear ya.

The most impressive thing about this car ... other than everything is how this car seems to come on from 60mph - 100 mph. I have seen stats stating a sprint to 100mph in 7.7 secs - that beats the GT and 430 ... I can't wait to see normalized results.

[kojack]

I agree that it's the best bang for the buck, but theres no way in hell that it's going to take the 430, keep dreaming.

[Benman]

Originally posted by kojack
Theres no way in hell that it's going to take the 430, keep dreaming.
I don't HAVE to dream. As my father likes to say, "the proof is in the pudding".

From track challenge:

Viper SRT-10 360 Modena

Manufacturer Dodge Ferrari
Testing Date 10/2004 10/1999
Engine 8285 cccm, 10 Zyl , 20 V 3568 cccm, 8 Zyl , 32 V
Power 506 PS (372 KW) @ 5600/min 400 PS (294 KW) @ 8500/min
Torque 711 Nm @ 4200/min 373 Nm @ 4750/min
Transmission 0 (6) 0 (6)
Weight 1585 Kg 1464 Kg
Weight / BhP 3,1 Kg / PS 3,7 Kg/ PS
0 - 100 Km/h 4,5 s 4,7 s
0 - 200 Km/h 14 s 16,1 s
0 - 200-0 Km/h 19,2 s 21,3 s
Top Speed
306 Km/h 295 Km/h
80 - 120 Km/h 4.Gear 4,5 s 4,3 s
100 - 0 Km/h hot 34,3 m , 11,3 m/s 35,7 m , 10,8 m/s
Transverse Acceleration 1,25 g 1,25 g
Slalom Course 36 / 110m 127 / 146 Km/h 125 / 138 Km/h
Round Time Nuerburgring 8.13 min 8.09 min
Round Time Hockenheim 1.14,9 min 1.15,1 min

And yes, I know, it is a Viper vs the OLD Modena. My point is that the Z06 (track challenge does not have one) can and DID beat a Viper around EVERY track they met at! So if the old 400 HP was a match for the 360, the new Z06 WILL be a match for the 430. And more than likely, will even put down BETTER times. Just watch!:thumb:

Ben:addict:

[kojack]

The new 430 is faster than the 360, its only 1/10 sec slower than the enzo in the 1/4 mile and no slower in top speed. also, road handling is on par with enzo...no dice bro...the 430 will walk the z06.

[Benman]

Originally posted by kojack
The new 430 is faster than the 360...
This goes without saying. If the new 430 WASN'T quicker than the 360, then I'd think that Ferrari was the stupidest car manufacture on the PLANET!:trash: Obviously it is quicker, and that IS my point! JUST as the Z06 WAS every bit as fast as the 360, so the NEW Z06 will be just as quick as the NEW 430! Ferrari people LIKE to tell themselves that this is not so. Most likely they tells themselves this so that they are comforted considering they just paid 5 TIMES as much $$$ for a car that can NOT pull anything over a "lowly" Chevy.:hihi:

As I stated, "proof" is in the pudding. I am aware of the stats for the 430 but obviously you have missed some of the stats in this VERY thread. For example:
Originally posted by k2
I have seen stats stating a sprint to 100mph in 7.7 secs - that beats the GT and 430
That alone makes it EXTREMELY difficult for me to conceive that the 430 will "walk" the new Z06.
:vhmmm: How can it "walk" it, when it is busy trying to catch up!:hihi: :doh:

Not trying to be a nob, just stating that the new Z06 will surprise many, many folks.
Ben:addict:

[kojack]

those stats are pretty bold considering the car is not even in the dealers yet. at least not on this side of the pond.

[k2]

OK ...

The Zs are in the States. How do I know - a buddy that works marketing for Homestead asked me to come see the C6 Z workout and get trapped. A well know publication, I was asked not to disclose, was specifically testing the car in a warm humid environment. The particular run I witnessed showed a 12.1 at 123mph with a 5mph head wind. My buddy told me that later in the day that same car ran an 11.7 at 124mph (obviously getting better at the launch and tuning from the pits).

Just because you and I can't really buy one ... doesn't mean there aren't a handful of guys beating the crap out of these things and testing them against other supercars. The stats I am pulling are not entirely comparative because the numbers are from different tracks and I am sure differing conditions. That said, i have yet to see F430 numbers that beat the Z coming from professionals - although I'm sure they are out there.

Don't get me wrong ... I'm not pumping the Z or knocking the 430. But I believe the C6 will be marked in history as an winning application of small block technology. American manufacturing methodologies have finally caught on to the European measurement of HP per Ton. Everything else is just details :rolleyes:

Ben says the proof is in the pudding ... well the ALMS is the pudding ... 2006 will tell.

:thumb:

[rks838]

OK, how has nobody said this yet. The Z06's lap time around the Ring was 7:42, and that was in a prototype that hasn't been smoothed around the edges! That equals the Porsche GT2, is second only to the Carrera GT, and beats the Murcielago, Gallardo, Pagana Zonda S, SLR, etc. Only one production car in the world is faster than the upcoming ZO6 on the track! Jan Magnussen, the pro C6-R racer who drove, quoted the car as being "absolutely marvelous," or something very similar. I believe this car is going to smash the F430 to bits...well, maybe...

The F430 has launch control to help it get to 60mph in 3.5 seconds and the quarter mile in 11.7@122. But those are the fastest times I've seen yet, and the Enzo has gotten 0-60mph in 3.3 seconds and the quarter in 10.8@133. http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=8896&page_number=4

I thought Car and Driver's recent supercar comparison was very interesting. http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=9743&page_number=1 It doesn't give you the times here, but the F430 went around the track in the exact same time as the Ford GT (.07 seconds slower). It bested the SL65, DB9, and 911 Turbo Cabriolet. So the F430 and Ford GT are equal on the track. Is the Corvette Z06 faster or slower than this pair? I haven't seen Ring times for the GT or F430 yet - does anybody have them??? Are they above or below 7:42??? I think the Z06 is gonna be the fastest car...k2, I think the Ring is Benman's "pudding."

Ford GT vs. Ferrari F430 vs. Corvette Z06 --- this is definitely going to be a comparison in an upcoming magazine!

[k2]

I knew she was a ringer and had seen the numbers on the cobra club, but I hate quoting ring times because conditions vary so dramatically and I haven't seen the 430 lap times - but obviously impressive. Is this officially the C6 Z06 ... I had heard that was the "blue devil" time?

[rks838]

I saw this number in a recent Motor Trend, with the red Miata on the cover - either August or September '05. It's positively the Z06, not the ~600hp Blue Devil. You are right about the Ring times - I like to use the numbers, but try to give each car a 5 second "gate" above or below the posted times. So when the Gallardo gets 7:52, it could have been on a bad or good day, so it could have gotten 7:52 or 7:42 - maybe. Does that make any sense?

But the Z06 time was done in "unseasonably muggy conditions," so I'd say it had a bad day!

[Benman]

Originally posted by k2
OK ...

The particular run I witnessed showed a 12.1 at 123mph with a 5mph head wind. Later in the day that same car ran an 11.7 at 124mph (obviously getting better at the launch and tuning from the pits).

That said, i have yet to see F430 numbers that beat the Z coming from professionals.

Ben says the proof is in the pudding ... well the ALMS is the pudding ... 2006 will tell.

:thumb:

Originally posted by rks838
The Z06's lap time around the Ring was 7:42, I think the Ring is Benman's "pudding."

Yep, that is some GOOD pudding!:D :thumb:

Ben:addict:

[db79]

I was in the new ZO6 over a month ago. They definitely refined some the issues that I had with my '02 ZO6. I know of at least one person that has 2 on order at invoice price.

[Benman]

Originally posted by db79
I know of at least one person that has 2 on order at invoice price.
Unless He has a last name of Fellows, Leno or Gordon, I find it hard to believe that Chevy will be letting their new Z06 go for invoice.

Ben:addict:

[db79]

Originally posted by Benman
Unless He has a last name of Fellows, Leno or Gordon, I find it hard to believe that Chevy will be letting their new Z06 go for invoice.

Ben:addict:

When you order a couple of them some deals can be made. Working for GM is always a plus too.

[k2]

Ben,

You can buy at invoice if you were lucky enough to be 1-5 on a dealers list. My understanding is that some guys were on the list two years ago (as a side ... I am number 3 on Champions list for the '07 RS6 / S8 when they start taking deposits ... I have been on the list since the B6 platform was announced). The only opportunity you have to buy a C6 Z is if someone renigs on an order. I am talking to a guy in Kansas City about a Z that a guy renig'd on because he couldn't get polished wheels (on back order until mid '06). So now the dealer wants $5k over although I bet I could get the deal done for less if I want to renig on my Noble ... which is frankly ... a temptation right now.

I hate cars ...:D

[Benman]

Originally posted by k2

So now the dealer wants $5k over although I bet I could get the deal done for less if I want to renig on my Noble ... which is frankly ... a temptation right now.

I hate cars ...:D
Hmm, that's a tuff one. The better track car...the better road car...either way... you WIN!:thumb:

Ben:addict:

[RAMMIUS]

Originally posted by Benman
This goes without saying. If the new 430 WASN'T quicker than the 360, then I'd think that Ferrari was the stupidest car manufacture on the PLANET!:trash: Obviously it is quicker, and that IS my point! JUST as the Z06 WAS every bit as fast as the 360, so the NEW Z06 will be just as quick as the NEW 430! Ferrari people LIKE to tell themselves that this is not so. Most likely they tells themselves this so that they are comforted considering they just paid 5 TIMES as much $$$ for a car that can NOT pull anything over a "lowly" Chevy.:hihi:

As I stated, "proof" is in the pudding. I am aware of the stats for the 430 but obviously you have missed some of the stats in this VERY thread. For example:
That alone makes it EXTREMELY difficult for me to conceive that the 430 will "walk" the new Z06.
:vhmmm: How can it "walk" it, when it is busy trying to catch up!:hihi: :doh:

Not trying to be a nob, just stating that the new Z06 will surprise many, many folks.
Ben:addict:


common benman , you`re one of the most respected man on this forum , but in this case you`re 110% biased !

Let`s talk about differences :

aero work : how much downforce does the Z06 generates at 300km/h ?
none !

you have steel brakes , with fading after 2 laps , vs carbo-ceramic fade free in the F430.

you have a front mounted engine vs a mid mounted one ! should we talk physics now ? the polar moment , the center of gravity and so on .

In the F430 you have the smartest E-Diff in the world that makes the car handle like it`s on rails , it helps the car to go thru a bend like a fighter jet.


Ok , maybe the Z06 get`s the same time as a F 430 on one lap , but let`s put them on 10 laps and will talk then.

:hihi:

[kojack]

the new 6 posts up similar times in a straight line as the 430 but throw them both on a track the 430 will come out on top every time....remember it's still a chev...as mentioned above, with old tech still being used. all they did was bump hp to make it faster.

[Benman]

Originally posted by RAMMIUS
common benman , you`re one of the most respected man on this forum...


Me? :blush: I'm just a Lil kid from So Cal.

Originally posted by RAMMIUS
but in this case you`re 110% biased !
And I agree with you 110%:thumb: (although, I think it's only possible to agree or for that matter do anything 100% ;) ).
[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by RAMMIUS

Ok , maybe the Z06 get`s the same time as a F 430 on one lap , but let`s put them on 10 laps and will talk then.

:hihi:
This may or may NOT be true. I've seen Z06s on the track before (remember, I don't ONLY hang with the Audi crowd:D ), and have never come across any Z06 owner who complained to me of brake fade any more than 360 owners (on the track at the same time). And during those time trials, the Z06s were posting every BIT as fast of lap times as the 360 owners (this was at Willow Springs, a track Jimmy and his son are very familiar with). Now keep in mind that the Z06 AND 360 owners were ALL amatuer racers, not magazine writers, so they DID know how to handle their cars. And the 360 owners were NOT babying their rides as the were running slicks just as the Z06 guys were.

My point is that these time trial events are 20-30 lap sessions and are during the course of the whole day, so if brake fade was really an issue, I don't think the Z06s could have "hung" with the 360s over the long haul and for that matter posted similar times.


Originally posted by kojack
the new 6 posts up similar times in a straight line as the 430 but throw them both on a track the 430 will come out on top every time....remember it's still a chev...
That's funny, they said the EXACT same thing about the Ford GT. People were saying, "now that the 430 is out, Ferrari will hand the Ford it's butt..."

Yeah well, it didn't work out like that. Yes, the mag testers at Car and Driver were EXPECTING the Ford to be faster in a straight line, but it was also JUST as quick (actually a half second FASTER ) around the track as the 430! And remeber, these cars did not just perform ONE flying lap but several. So DESPITE Ferraris "smartest E-Diff in the world that makes the car handle like it`s on rails", it still got beat by a "lowly, old school Ford".

And lastly, please remeber, that Chevy is aiming for the ALL NEW Z06 to BEAT the Ford GT, NOT just to get close.

So YES, I AM biased, but I also think I have REALLY good reason to be so, but again, time will tell.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[k2]

Nice post Ben,

Good track times are about carrying momentum and speed through corners, having power & torque to pass on straights and staying out of the pits. Frankly, this has very little to do with where the engine is mounted, what kind of brakes are on the car or how much downforce is inherent in a production design.

Nonetheless ... let me comment to continue the debate.

Steel brakes are, practically speaking, a better brake for the track if you are willing to constantly change pads and rotors. Ceramic breaks cool very quickly and can be very inconsistent. Ceramic brake technology is still evolving and is not the standard in racing. This is something you brag about at the pub. I had them on my GT2 and deleted them on my GT3 because I didn't like feathering before each corner. The best feature of ceramics is limited brake dust. All brakes fade if they overheat ... and ceramics will overheat.

The C6 engine mounting is well behind the front wheels. Driver weight is rear biased. Transmisison is rear mounted. From what I can tell, this may be the most neutral Z ever. Tell Porsche that their rear weight bias cost them lap times. A GT2 which is, IMHO, the most difficult car ever to drive on the track, has some of the most consistent Ring times.

More downforce = higher CD. Its not a direct relationship, but 50% more downforce means some of that increased HP in the 430 is being cannibalized. Every track requires a different configuration. That's why every ALMS production car gets a big cheezy wing before it goes to the track ... and that big wing can be adjusted ... as well as the venturis. More downforce ... important in NASCAR and Indy ... debatable in LeMans ... worthless at track days.

Ferrari transmissions are the best in the world especially at higher RPM. This is a big advantage in a vs. comparo. More importantly, a good chasis translates into good speeds thru corners and I imagine the all aluminum chasis has some impressive torsional resistance vs. the C6. Chevy invested considerably in its new C6 platform, but it is steel and likely less rigid. But I guess the biggest selling point for the FCar is that cute little red manettino that you can show your mates.

I can't buy a 430, but if I could, I'd rather have 3 Z06s ... and with those 3 Z06s, I bet I stand a better chance of having better lap times than if I were driving 1 430 on that same track ... slide it into the armco and your done for the day. Not a car you're likely to push.

I'm not knocking the 430 ... it is a good looking car that runs with the best of the supercars. My point is Ferrari is getting away from that feeling of driver involvment that I had in my manual 355C. I imagine a poll in this community would have more folks buying an F40 vs. the 430 even though the stats are about the same.



:0:

[Benman]

Originally posted by k2
Nonetheless ... let me comment to continue the debate.

The C6 engine mounting is well behind the front wheels. Driver weight is rear biased. Transmisison is rear mounted. From what I can tell, this may be the most neutral Z ever. Tell Porsche that their rear weight bias cost them lap times. A GT2 which is, IMHO, the most difficult car ever to drive on the track, has some of the most consistent Ring times.

More importantly, a good chasis translates into good speeds thru corners and I imagine the all aluminum chasis has some impressive torsional resistance vs. the C6. Chevy invested considerably in its new C6 platform, but it is steel and likely less rigid. But I guess the biggest selling point for the FCar is that cute little red manettino that you can show your mates.

I can't buy a 430, but if I could, I'd rather have 3 Z06s .

I imagine a poll in this community would have more folks buying an F40 vs. the 430 even though the stats are about the same.

:0:
And I'll continue the debate as well since this is one of the most friendly ever.:thumb:

Your comment about the weight distribution on the Vette is spot on!:thumb: A slight rear weight bias is a good thing (Maseratti Quattro Port) and the Vette sure has one. Yeah, tell Porsche that their "wrong" vehicle dynamics is a bad thing as they almost always seem to stick it to the boys from Modena.

I'll have to conceed on your chassis point about the Vette vs 430. I'll admit that the 430 more than likely has the superior chassis, but I don't think by much. The new Z06 is definately going to be more than a C6 with 100 more HP and will have significant suspension (and even some chassis) tweaks to make it closer (if not equal) to the 430. But as you mention, it will be enough with the VERY close chassis and superior power (mostly more torque) to better it on the track by carrying more speed through the turns.

I guess I'm kinda surprised to hear that the GT2 is so hard to handle on the track. I know I shouldn't be as it has so much power with only rear wheel drive, but I was thinking it wouldn't be so dramatic. I know Nordschleife had often said so, but I guess I never believed him.

If I could afford a 430, I'd ALSO rather get 3 Z06s (well, actually, a Z06, a new RS 4 and a A6 avant:D ).

And I'd TOTALLY take a F40 over a 430 ANYDAY!:thumb:

Ben:addict:

[kojack]

Nice list benman! ha ha

I love ferarri's tho. We (us in NA) will have to wait and see soon, as im sure there will be a vette vs. All soon. and, I can assure that lingenfelter will make it a sick sick puppy.....

[boss330]

Does the new Corvette still use transverse leaf spring suspension and old school push rod engines?

[Benman]

Originally posted by kojack
We (us in NA) will have to wait and see soon, as im sure there will be a vette vs. All soon. and, I can assure that lingenfelter will make it a sick sick puppy.....
I agree that very soon there will be a test that ends all speculation. Then my pudding will emerge!:brag: :D And yeah, Lingenfelter always turns out nice products, but on a side note, didn't he recently pass away?


Originally posted by boss330
Does the new Corvette still use transverse leaf spring suspension and old school push rod engines?
And yet it still kicks butt!:D Not sure about the new Z06 though.

Ben:addict:

[gnomik007]

Today I read in russian Top Gear magazine a small article that Chevy is also gonna release a more extreme turbo version of Z06 and there are pics of blue coloured chevy on some european racetrack.If thats the case than WOW, U GO GM :)
And if the price of such new vette will be what I expect it to be, I mean cheaper than 99% of any competitor, it will definately be in my wish list.Of course interior will be of standard CRAP US standard, but with 5k work on it, the car will be a stunner.

[Benman]

Originally posted by gnomik007
Today I read in russian Top Gear magazine a small article that Chevy is also gonna release a more extreme turbo version of Z06 and there are pics of blue coloured chevy on some european racetrack.If thats the case than WOW, U GO GM :)
And if the price of such new vette will be what I expect it to be, I mean cheaper than 99% of any competitor, it will definately be in my wish list.Of course interior will be of standard CRAP US standard, but with 5k work on it, the car will be a stunner.
gnomik007,

You're refering to the "Blue Devil" (supposedly code named because the big wig at GM that would need to clear this car is a Blue Devils Alumni) that GM has had in the works for well over a year. It STILL is trying (well, I should say the developers are still trying) to be green lighted for production. Nothing is for sure but as you mentioned it will not have a NA engine (either supercharged or Turbo) and have all unique bodywork so as not to look like the Z06. Rumor has the car costing in the $100K- $135K range.

That is all according to mags and internet hype though. I seriously think it would be WAY cool for GM to have a Halo car like this since the Ford boys have their GT but doubt GM has the testies to build it. I really would like to see it, but don't expect them to come through.:cry:

Ben:addict:

[gnomik007]

Will Z06 be sold in Europe like viper?

[RAMMIUS]

[QUOTE]


This may or may NOT be true. I've seen Z06s on the track before (remember, I don't ONLY hang with the Audi crowd:D ), and have never come across any Z06 owner who complained to me of brake fade any more than 360 owners (on the track at the same time). And during those time trials, the Z06s were posting every BIT as fast of lap times as the 360 owners (this was at Willow Springs, a track Jimmy and his son are very familiar with). Now keep in mind that the Z06 AND 360 owners were ALL amatuer racers, not magazine writers, so they DID know how to handle their cars. [QUOTE]


[QUOTE]
Yeah well, it didn't work out like that. Yes, the mag testers at Car and Driver were EXPECTING the Ford to be faster in a straight line, but it was also JUST as quick (actually a half second FASTER ) around the track as the 430! And remeber, these cars did not just perform ONE flying lap but several. So DESPITE Ferraris "smartest E-Diff in the world that makes the car handle like it`s on rails", it still got beat by a "lowly, old school Ford".
[QUOTE]


Aaaaa benman , I was talking about Z06 vs F430 ? K? with ceramic brakes , not the 360.
So they didn`t complain about brake fading those Vette owners ?
I`am sure they didn`t , because :harass: they`re not proffesional drivers they are just plain wannabes who can afford that kind of toy :hihi:
They won`t recognize brake fade in a million years :hahahehe:


Second : you compare the F430 with the GT . k

F430 V8 4308cmc
490hp @ 8500 rpm NORMAL ASPIRATED
465Nm @5250 rpm

GT V8 5410cmc
500hp @ 6000rpm SUPERCHARGERRRRRR hehe
500Nm @ 4500rpm


So , in the GT you have 2 advantages :

Displacement , that`s 1100cmc bigger ,and that`s a lot AND a supercharger :brag:

SOooooo , let`s get the supercharger out of the GT, or , worse lets put Twin Turbo`s on the F430 :hihi: :hihi:

I suggest that you all should read the reviews & comparison tests of the US based mags , about Ferrari F430 , and then will talk , or hehehehe US based mags are biased towards Ferrari ?



:hihi:

[kojack]

benman, yes, lingenfelther passed away some time ago but the company is still poppin out hot cars. Im on the fence on this one because I have not seen a vette that makes me go wow since the 67 427 sintray. Im am not a lover of vettes at all...the numbers are impressive...but like our poor friends driving the awsome phateon, which is probably one of the nicest cars on the road, its still just a vw. the z06 is still just a chev corvette. if im spending 90k on a car I will shell out the rest and grab a ferrari or lambo....and have something that wont loose its value in 2 years....but the vette is fast.

[db79]

From owning a '02 Z06 and experiencing the new Z06 first hand, I can say that it's the best bang for your buck in the performance department. Yes, it performs at a level that competes with the F430, but you also have to remember that the F430 is over double the price of the Z06. Realistically many people can afford the Z06 as opposed to the F430. So, the F430 is not an option for the masses.

As for the GT2 being a hand full on the track. Porsche has always been known as a drivers car. They can make great lap times when piloted by experienced drivers. For the max potential to be realized a Porsche needs to be driven not by the faint of heart.

[Benman]

Originally posted by RAMMIUS
[QUOTE]Aaaaa benman , I was talking about Z06 vs F430 ? K? with ceramic brakes , not the 360.
Ok, for the love of God and all that is good, I will say this one... more... time...

I KNOW I am comparing a 2001 Chevrolet Z06 TO A 2001 Ferrari 360 and NOT, I repeat, NOT a 430. Please, please, PLEASE tell me you are smarter than this. PLEASE!

How many times must I state that again, I am comparing a 2001 Z06 to a 2001 360. There, I have said it again and HOPEFULLY will not have to explain this yet AGAIN! :doh:

People, this IS my POINT! A 2001 Z06 is a match for a 2001 360 at the track, not one lap, not 2 laps, but MANY LAPS! Soooo..... why is it SO stinkin hard for EVERYONE to believe that if numbers don't lie and that a 2001 Z06 CAN keep pace with the 2001 360, that it would be ANY different with a 2006 Z06 vs a 2006 430?!?!?!?:doh: Again, this has been my point from DAY ONE! Yet for some reason, people keep thinking I'm so stupid as to "accidently" compare a Z06 to a 360! Please, give me some more credit than that! I compare those 2001 cars because there IS NO DATA for a 2006 Z06 vs 2006 430 comparison. I use those examples to illustrate the fact that IF Chevy DID IT before than the CAN do it again! My Goodness!:doh:


Originally posted by RAMMIUS
[QUOTE]
So they didn`t complain about brake fading those Vette owners ?
I`am sure they didn`t , because :harass: they`re not proffesional drivers they are just plain wannabes who can afford that kind of toy :hihi:
They won`t recognize brake fade in a million years :hahahehe:
And you are what, Mr. Schumacher?

I stated that these guys are amatuer racecar driver's, NOT that they are "wannabes". An amatuer race car driver is NOT a wannabe, they are race car drivers that are GOOD race car drivers, but not great enough to have big fancy contracts with teams to where they can quit their jobs and race full time.

Are you saying that Randy Pobst was a "wannabe" back when he raced spec Miatas? No, he was a very good driver who just didn't have the connections (at the time) to land him a full time carrer as a racecar driver.

I met several BRILLANT drivers on my trip to Germany (introduced to me by Robin and by Gote). These people were very good drivers but not ALL of them are 100% full time employed as such so by my definition they are "amatuers and by yours they are "wannabes" (and BTW they would despite your beliefs, recognize brake fade in far less than a million years.

The amatuer drivers I am referring to are every bit as good as 99% of the magaine "wannabe" drivers that we all read about and ALL quote their figures. And besides, these Z06 "wannabe" drivers are no different than the "wannabe" 360 drivers. So comparing wannabe to wannabe IS in fact apples to apples.


Originally posted by RAMMIUS
[QUOTE]
Second : you compare the F430 with the GT . k

So , in the GT you have 2 advantages :

Displacement , that`s 1100cmc bigger ,and that`s a lot AND a supercharger :brag:
Gee, I never figured that out as well. :doh:

Of COURSE I realize that the GT has a BIGGER, AND NON normally aspirated engine. The GT is also far less technical than the 430, without it's fancy tranny and launch control AND fancy chassis. And as a bonus, last I checked it is @$40K CHEAPER! Yet despite this "crude" imitation, it IS the 430's MATCH at the track! So yes, it does have MORE HP, but so does a Viper, and the Viper will NOT stand up to the 430. So I think you may have missed my point but hopefully understand what I mean now.

Originally posted by RAMMIUS
[QUOTE]
I suggest that you all should read the reviews & comparison tests of the US based mags , about Ferrari F430 , and then will talk , or hehehehe US based mags are biased towards Ferrari ?
:hihi:
Yes, I have read the US mags as well, and yes, they are biased to Ferrari. It's funny when I was reading about the refinement this, and refinement that. How the Ferrari was so much quieter over the same roads, and how the Ford allowed SO much road noise in and the A pillars were so much bigger in the Ford than they were than in the Ferrari and yada, yada, yada... yet, their own numbers show them to be LIARS! When I actually looked at the dba report, it showed the Ferrari allowed every bit as much decibels into the cabin! Hmm...

As for A pillar complaints, I have driven neither, but sitting in them, the sure seem right about the same bulkiness to me. But then hey, I'm not a "professional" car mag writer.:doh:

When talking to Wolfgang Kaufmann (NON amatuer race car driver in Germany) he agreed we me that Ferraris hold some mysterious spell over automotive journalist. He couldn't explain it. He's driven about 15 different Ferrari race cars and close to 10 different Ferrari street cars (about half at the Ring and ALSO drives these race cars in the Euro Le Mans series). Compare this to about double that number in Porsche race and street cars. Every time, the ONLY thing he says the Ferrari has over the Porsche is the sound. That glorious sound. But once underway it's like," Dang, I should have bought a Porsche.

So yes, everyone, I am biased. I freely admit I am biased. I would take a Z06 or Porsche any day over a Ferrari. There, I've ranted far too long and now my fingers are tired.

Ben:addict:

[k2]

Boss ... the C6 has a coil-over setup around Bilstein monotubes. Not all the novel today, but greatly improves unsprung weight.

Chevy will never move away from the push rod ... why ... old school baby ... you can get the same fuel / airflow without the weight ... if you want more ... check out this link.

http://popularhotrodding.com/tech/0504phr_ls7/

I think this thread shows how Brain Washed we have become.
:bigeyes:

Supercar manufactures compete in one arena only ... units sold to consumers. They sell units three ways ... 1. grabbing our attention by pumping out stats and giving journalist overnight stays in exoctic locals with their cars during comparos ... 2. brain washing us with marketing materials so we believe that driving a Ferrari will solve that little problem that the boys teased you about showering in grade school ... 3. winning races.

Have you ever had a Ferrari owner say 'I bought my Ferrari because it handles incredibly well in that down-hill off camber chikane just past Thunder Alley? Maybe some of us have .... :thumb:

The F430 has many impressive stats ... but I bet you the next time I go to Watkins or Mid-Ohio or Mont-Tremblant ... I will count 20 PCars, 20 Vettes, 3 FCars (not one a 430), 2 Lambos and 50 STIs ... so I propose that the next time you ask someone getting out of a F430 about brake fade ... they are going to look at you like you're nuts. But if you ask him / her if they have ceramic brakes ... you will get an empatic YES ...

I respect a lot of guys on this blog ... including Ben, Robin, Icon, Sturs and others ... Many of us have tracked cars ... some have gone to the big dance and are referred to as ringers. Don't flame in this community unless you know what you're talking about.

Just so you know ... I have ceramic brakes on my Klein mountain bike.

db79 ... the GT2 is fun as hell, but scary as hell ... the boost combined with the torque and rear weight bias is very hard to control ... especially in situations where you have increasing radius turns ... your natural inclination is to get on the car coming out of the apex and in many situations you will misjudge and go wheels off. I had to sell mine because I'm a wannabe that couldn't spot brake fade in a million years ... plus, you can't replace a GT2 and parts are hard to find. An impressive ride in any street duel however.

K2

[Benman]

Originally posted by k2

I think this thread shows how Brain Washed we have become.
:bigeyes:

Supercar manufactures compete in one arena only ... units sold to consumers. They sell units three ways ... 1. grabbing our attention by pumping out stats and giving journalist overnight stays in exoctic locals with their cars during comparos ... 2. brain washing us with marketing materials so we believe that driving a Ferrari will solve that little problem that the boys teased you about showering in grade school ... 3. winning races.

Have you ever had a Ferrari owner say 'I bought my Ferrari because it handles incredibly well in that down-hill off camber chikane just past Thunder Alley? Maybe some of us have .... :thumb:

The F430 has many impressive stats ... but I bet you the next time I go to Watkins or Mid-Ohio or Mont-Tremblant ... I will count 20 PCars, 20 Vettes, 3 FCars (not one a 430), 2 Lambos and 50 STIs ... so I propose that the next time you ask someone getting out of a F430 about brake fade ... they are going to look at you like you're nuts. But if you ask him / her if they have ceramic brakes ... you will get an empatic YES ...

K2
Man O Man. I ranted and raved. Went on and on, but could NOT have said it better than THAT!/\/\/\ ****looks at above post****

I am also just as guilty of believing the hype of different Ads. I mean, that is WHY they call it marketing. Otherwise, we would all be sensible and just drive Toyota Prius's or something.:D

K2, your comment of the 20PCars, 20 Vettes and 50 STIs (orEVOs) vs the 3 FCars that show up rings very true. :thumb:

Ben:addict:

[rks838]

I think Benman and K2 got it spot on. Rammius, you are not Schumacher, and you sound like you're trying to condescend to the whole forum, so you look like a wannebe yourself...and by the way, the Ford GT has 550hp, as it says in the magazines :D. It doesn't matter how they get performance, just as long as the get the performance, it's all the same. You can say Ferrari is more sophisticated and crap, but the GT and Z06 can accelerate, handle, and lap just as well with arguably worse/less sophisticated engineering. With different approaches, these three cars all perform about equally. Just get the performance...any way this is done is acceptable, and IMHO, should be respected.

[RAMMIUS]

Originally posted by Benman




When talking to Wolfgang Kaufmann (NON amatuer race car driver in Germany) he agreed we me that Ferraris hold some mysterious spell over automotive journalist. He couldn't explain it. He's driven about 15 different Ferrari race cars and close to 10 different Ferrari street cars (about half at the Ring and ALSO drives these race cars in the Euro Le Mans series). Compare this to about double that number in Porsche race and street cars. Every time, the ONLY thing he says the Ferrari has over the Porsche is the sound. That glorious sound. But once underway it's like," Dang, I should have bought a Porsche.


Ben:addict: [/B]

Ben that`s a german . ok ? Are you so dumb ? What do you expect him to say ? Ohh the italian one it`s better ?

Man are you stupid or what ?????

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

[k2]

Rks ... that's not rolling stock on your beast ... are those HREs? Looks hot ... can you post a bigger pix?

[Benman]

Originally posted by RAMMIUS
Ben that`s a german . ok ? Are you so dumb ? What do you expect him to say ? Ohh the italian one it`s better ?

Man are you stupid or what ?????

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
Ok, I was born and raised in the United States of America. My family has been here for more than 200 years (you might say some of my folk were the ones who stole/purchased it from the indians) so I'm American through and through.

My point? Just because I was born and raised in this country (and like living here) I would NEVER say that I prefer a Cadillac to my Audi. What the heck does ones country of birth have to do with the car they like? You ask if I'm stupid, well maybe I am. But by the same token you are labeling all Germans to be so biased as to only prefer their countries vehicles. This is plain rubish. In fact, my contact at quattro GmbH who ALSO was born and raised proud German drives a LAND ROVER! It is her FAVORITE vehicle, and NOT Audis! So please do not lable the Germans as mindless morons who only favor what their country produces because this is NOT the case. If you wish to call me stupid, that is totally acceptable as I never even graduated HIGH SCHOOL! :thumb: Didn't need it.

Also, Wolfgang Kaufmann, again, is a professional race car driver who has raced all kinds of vehicles and not just Porsches and Ferraris. He has also raced the Saleen SR7(?) as well as prototypes. In fact he likes the Saleen every bit as much as the Ferrari (since the Saleen is made here and NOT in his country, how do you explain that one?). Come on, I'm biased but not THAT biased. And Wolfgang is one very cool dude. Really try to not label people that you've never met.

As for the getting back on topic, I wanted to post some "magazine brainwashing" from Car & Driver from their October issue (NEW Z06) and August issue (430):

Z06 430
0-60:3.6;4.1 (Z06)
0-100:7.9;9.4 (Z06)
0-150:17.5;23.8 (Z06)
1/4:11.712.5 (Z06)
70-0:162ft;162ft (tie)
.98g;.96g (Z06)
TS:198mph;186mph (Z06)
EPA:16/26mpg;11/21 (Z06)

Yes... before everyone says this is just magazine propaganda and these are #s reported by amatuers, again, I mention that these are the SAME amatuers from the SAME magazine. I will also admit that the editors by a great majority would select the 430 over the new Z06, but it most certainly will NOT be because of the superior #s of the 430 becuase the 430 DOESN'T have ANY superior #s. It DOES however have that big fancy "prancing" horse on it though, and that alone, I'm sure is worth the EXTRA $100K OVER the price of the Z06!

Ben:addict:

[rks838]

Road and Track just came out with some interesting numbers that are below my expectations, and the numbers printed in Chevy's Z06 ad in the same issue. Sorry, don't have the mag right here, but 0-60 was 4.2 seconds! I think something was way off - 1/4 mile in 12.x at 116...

k2, not my car! check out http://www.bb-automobiltechnik.de/bb2004/en/galerie/audi/rs6/index.php and http://www.bb-automobiltechnik.de/bb2004/en/produkte/raeder/audi/rs6/index.php - they do look great!

[Benman]

Originally posted by rks838
Road and Track just came out with some interesting numbers that are below my expectations, and the numbers printed in Chevy's Z06 ad in the same issue. Sorry, don't have the mag right here, but 0-60 was 4.2 seconds! I think something was way off - 1/4 mile in 12.x at 116...

Just saw those same #s today. :confused: Well, maybe they need more practice on launching? Those numbers they post are "only" as good as the 430s! Not sure though what the deal is. Anyway, why I posted the Car & Driver stats since they were from the same mag and in similar weather environments.:vhmmm: Have to check into what they quote for the 430...

Ben:addict:

[rks838]

Motor Trend's numbers are very similar to Car and Driver's, so I believe there was just something odd about the figures achieved by Road and Track.

[Benman]

Originally posted by rks838
Motor Trend's numbers are very similar to Car and Driver's, so I believe there was just something odd about the figures achieved by Road and Track.
I think you may be right. On top of the MotorTrend, Autoweek also tested the Z06. Spome quotes:

"There is no grading curve here. The Z06's $65,800 base price marks it as the greastest value in supercar history...

the Z06 will run with anything not named Carrera GT or Enzo, give or take a few obscure low volume specials or million dollar dreams...

in the course of driving the car at Spa, Nurburgring F1 track and on public roads, we found the Z06's performance exceeds its on paper promise.

Chevy pulled out the obligatory Nordschleife lap times...with Jan Magnussen at the helm, the Z06 clocked a seven minute, 42.99 second lap...Lamborghini's $283,000 Murcielago clocked in at seven minutes, 50 seconds, and the $452,000 Mercedes SLR at seven minutes, 52 seconds.

he (GM's Hill) could add DB9, Gallardo and F430 to the hit list."


Some high, high praise...

Ben:addict: (exotics, beware...:thumb: ).

[Exhaust]

Nice look,

http://www.tuningnews.net/news/050111a/chevrolet-corvette-z06-06.jpg

:D

[Benman]

Originally posted by k2
Watching Ebay for market price of the new Z06. Looks like they are going for anywhere from $2500 to $5000 over MSRP ($75K). Seems like a lot, but for Chevy lovers this is the pinnacle of sports cars I guess. Give it 6 mos and $3/gal. gas prices and they will be selling at invoice IMHO.

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but at the same time, it was better than just starting a new one.

Well k2 (BTW, are you still visiting these threads?), sad to say, but it looks like you were wrong. DEAD wrong. Don't misunderstand, cause I really, really wish you were right.

As it sits, the new Z06 has been out for nearly 6 months, and ALL the dealers want $10K over list!!! Every single one!!!

My father even got bumped off the list he was on since guys behind him were willing to pay more!

So my question is... Can anyone out there help? Stu, anyone? Anyone know where he could get a Z06 for retail?

Well... some much for invoice... don't I wish.:(

Ben:addict:

[kojack]

Yeah benman,

Never saw that one coming....waiting list means premiums charged for the cars...fact of life of supply and demand.

[k2]

Ben,

I'm sorry I'm wrong. This is an awesome car that I hope your father can find at a reasonable premium. I expected to see guys flipping these cars sooner and thus bring supply up. Folks are buying and holding. I think the Viper, listing for $92K is not helping this either. I bought an SRT-10 about 10 mos ago for $72K. Just crazy what's going on in the HPwr world.

I'm on the list for the RS4 and Champion is now telling me the darn thing may be close to $90K with gas guzzler.

Good Luck :0:

[Benman]

kojack and k2:cheers:

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, we did see that one coming, it was just a surprise that the dealer he did have his name on the list with, bumped him off since others behind him were willing to pay more! I mean, it's a free country and all, but dang, what's a man's word worth these days???

Now the problem is trying to find a dealer who doesn't want $10K over sticker. Again, if dealers can get this kinda dough from buyers, then I say AMEN, it's a freemarket! I mean, no one cries for the dealer when they're selling Cavaliers (now Cobalts) for $400 over invoice, so why should we complain when they can make bank on the few and inbetween models (Chevy and Ford haven't had the best of luck lately).

It's just a bummer is all. Pop will survive without his Z06, life will go on just fine, but he still would like one, just refuses to pay "Stupid Tax" as he puts it. Some dealers have even scored $20K on this thing! I'm glad the new Z06 is in such demand, but disappointed the Old Man can't get one. Ahh well, time will tell...


k2, Champion is saying $90K out the door? Man, these cars nowadays are going up through the roof!:bigeyes:

Ben:addict:

[k2]

Benman

Good options and not too much over sticker ... how's your Dad making out in his quest?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4616236283&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[Benman]

Originally posted by k2
Benman

Good options and not too much over sticker ... how's your Dad making out in his quest?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4616236283&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
k2:cheers: ,

Thanks for checking up on him. Believe it or not, I was actually able to find a dealer (one in all of America) that is charging MSRP!!!

He'll have to wait for it though, so he's a couple of months out. Problem is, with his attention span, by then, he'll have me looking for another car...:rolleyes:

Ben:addict: