PDA

View Full Version : Audi's new model dilemma



tailpipe
July 5th, 2005, 14:32
As we all know, Audi is planning to introduce quite a broad selection of new performance models. The big issue to be resolved is what engine to put in each one so that they have unique customer appeal, don't cannibalise existing model sales of other ranges, and don't overlap too much so that they end up competing with each other, instead of BMW and Mercedes-Benz.

The key questions are which of these models will offer a V-10, a V-8 or both and which of these will have an additional turbo version. Based on my knowledge of recent discussions within Audi, the current engine configurations being considered are as follows:

R9: V-10 (550 bhp) or V-8 (420 bhp) or both
S8: V-10 (450 bhp)
Q7: V-10 (450 bhp)
RS6: V-10 (550 bhp)
S6: V-10 (450 bhp) or V-8 (420 bhp)
A4 coupe and convertible (possibly called A5): V-10 (450 bhp) or V-8 (420 bhp) or both
RS4 saloon and avant: V-8 (420 bhp)
S4 saloon and avant: V-8 (350 or 380 bhp)

(N.B. all V-8s will soon be FSI to comply with EURO IV emission requirements. All power outputs are in the ball park )

This is clearly an impressive line-up of new performance models. But given that the price of oil is unlikely to come back below $50 a barrell anytime soon and that Formula 1 is returning to V-8 engines, the appeal of V-10s may be shortlived.

The risk for Audi could be an extremely costly investment in an expensive line-up of gas-guzzlers with monstrous performance that don't sell. Consequently, as reported elsewhere, I expect high-performance models with powerful common-rail V-8 diesels to make a wider appearance.

What is also likely is that a less high-revving version of the RS4's engine is likely to appear with a turbo. It will deliver similar power, but better fuel consumption. In other words, RS4 engine is likely to be unique and only fitted to a few models.

kujo
August 28th, 2005, 21:56
Turbo's again for mpg ????

How bout this...

B8 S4 with 4.2 V8 FSI T making about 400bhp ?

That'd be nice.

Tunable to about 475 maybe ??????

I'd take the first Avant with DSG7 in the US !!

Iceman
August 28th, 2005, 23:38
This is more the expected engine line-up:

R9 : V8 FSI 420 hp or W12 450 hp.
S8 : W12 BT 550 hp.
Q7 : V8 FSI Biturbo 520 hp.
RS6: V8 FSI Bi-turbo 520 hp.
S6 : V8 FSI 420 hp.
A5 : V8 FSI 350- 420 hp.
RS4: V8 FSI 420 hp.
S4 : V8 FSI 350 hp.

wfg, Hans.

kujo
August 29th, 2005, 00:28
only 350 for the B8 S4 Hans ????

That's a let down.

If no RS4 Avant makes it to the US, I guess it might be an S6 Avant for me....

OR a C4S.. :D and a use Avant for the 'beater'..

Iceman
August 29th, 2005, 11:18
Originally posted by kujo
only 350 for the B8 S4 Hans ????
That's a let down.
No 350 hp is for the B7 S4.
The B8 S4 will have more in the line of 380-420 hp.
Further the most engine power's i mentioned are for the future 2-3 years.
After that time the Audi V8 FSI engine will grow to a volume of 4.8 litre.
That will give the V8 FSI engine's a power increase of 40-60 hp depending on the version.

wfg, Hans.

kujo
August 29th, 2005, 14:50
ahhhh, well the B8s slated for a 2008MY, which will arrive in mid 2007.

So next years 2007 B7 S4 will make 350 ?

Interesting........

kj

clam
September 2nd, 2005, 03:07
How about this?

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_1496.shtml?page=2


...

The ambitious objective of squeezing an output per litre in excess of 90 kW per litre swept volume out of a 1400 c.c. engine could not be achieved with single-stage supercharging alone. However, an upstream compressor enables the boost pressure buildup of the exhaust turbocharger to be significantly increased.

The maximum boost pressure of the “Twincharger” is approx. 2.5 bar at 1500 rpm, with the exhaust turbocharger and the mechanical supercharger being operated with about the same pressure ratio (approx. 1.53). A straight exhaust turbocharged engine without compressor assistance would only achieve a pressure ratio of about 1.3 bar here. The more rapid response of the exhaust turbocharger enables the compressor to be depressurised earlier by continuous opening of the bypass valve. This means compressor operation is restricted to a narrow map area with predominantly low pressure ratios and, therefore, low power consumption. Consequently, the disadvantage of the mechanical supercharger system in terms of consumption can be limited.

In practice, this means the compressor is only required for generating the required boost pressure in the engine speed range up to 2400 rpm. The exhaust turbocharger is designed for optimum efficiency in the upper power range and provides adequate boost pressure even in the medium speed range. In dynamic driving, this is inadequate for the specified in-gear acceleration values in the low engine speed range. In these driving situations, the compressor is engaged to permit a spontaneous boost pressure buildup. The way in which these two systems complement each other means there is absolutely no turbo lag. The compressor is no longer needed above an engine speed of 3500 rpm at most, as the exhaust turbocharger can definitely provide the necessary boost pressure even dynamically during the transition from coasting to full-load operation.

...

In practice, the “1400 Twincharger” drives like a big naturally aspirated engine with 2.3-litre cubic capacity. This is because the maximum torque of 240 newton meters is available from 1750 rpm to 4500 rpm.

...

This is because very low consumption values are possible due to the generous torque and the high level of power that allow a correspondingly relaxed driving style. In the Golf GT, the 1.4 TSI gets along with only 7.2 l/100 km (39.2 mpg) of Super Plus petrol. This is about 20 percent less than in a naturally aspirated engine with comparable torque and power and a cubic capacity of approx. 2.3 litres. In interurban transport, indeed, the “Twincharger” veritably sips only 5.9 l/100 km (47.9 mpg).

...



It's the new Twin Charged engine from VW. The Performance of a big N/A engine, with the efficiency of a small turbo engine. If it is really as good as the press release suggests, then surely this is the future of the combustion engine. This is where the N/A versus Turbo, versus SuperCharger debate ends. B/c this engine has the powerband of an N/A, the low end Torque of a supercharger, and the high end effeciency of a turbo.
So the future RSx models may be Twin Charged 'small' displacement engines. The return of the forced V6 in the (R)S4, but this time with a supercharged in between the cylinder banks. Exciting prospect.

Iceman
September 2nd, 2005, 10:52
There are alredy Twincharger plans for a 1.6 TSI with ± 194 hp and 2.0 TSI with ± 272 hp.
Further is it possible to use the Twincharger principle on the VR6 3.2/3.6 engine's with a expected power range of ± 360-440 hp.
There are no plans for use on conventional V engines.

wfg, Hans.

Benman
September 2nd, 2005, 16:17
Originally posted by kujo
Turbo's again for mpg ????

How bout this...

B8 S4 with 4.2 V8 FSI T making about 400bhp ?

That'd be nice.

I'd take the first Avant with DSG7 in the US !!
I'd take the second one!:thumb:

Ben:addict: :rs4addict

kujo
September 4th, 2005, 03:34
ok, so the 2008 B8 S4 will make 380-400bhp.
Love that....

Also, DSG7 will be in place for that paltform as well.

How about the new chasis ?
Being an all aluminum chassis, how much weight reduction will that produce ?

200lbs ? more? less ?

Looking forward to more info on this coming out.
Since we won't get the RS4 in Avant form here in the States.

Also, how is the new DSG7 differing from the current DSG tranny ?
Aside from having 7 gears and being made for Longitudaly mounted motors ?

kj

tailpipe
September 4th, 2005, 17:02
Kurt,

I haven't heard that the B8 chassis will be aluminum. I would certainly like it to be, that's for sure.

I just heard that autopart supplier ZF has developed its own 7-speed DSG gearbox for front engine cars driving the rear wheels, which it will be displaying at Frankfurt. This is two years away from production, max. This is good news. I have no technical data about the box at this time.

I don't know whether Audi is using ZF to develop this technology, (wasn't it Borg Warner who developed the orginal DSG box for them?), but the iminent availability of this box for other manufacturers is likely to encourage Audi to get a move on with DSG for its high performance models.

I hear also that the transmission for the B8 is very similar to BMW's X-drive, which also has a transmission rod running forward from the gearbox. In future, all 4WD Audi A4S will have an optimal weight balance. (Speaking of 4WD transmssions, I hear the system on the new Lexus IS250 is pretty cool too.)

So, yes, Kurt, I'm pretty sure the B8 S4 will be every bit as good as the latest RS4 . Audi poached quite a few chassis engineers from BMW. Their expertise was used to improve B7, but they'll do a much better job starting from a blank sheet of paper.

Don't let that put you off the RS4; the next S4 is unlikely to arrive befoe model year 2009. (S models arrive 2 years after mainstream ones.)

kujo
September 4th, 2005, 20:32
TP,

Thanks for the info man.
Didn't think about the 2009 thing.
I knew the B8 was slated for my2008, but like you said, the S model usually shows up a year later.
Forgot about that.

I'm not awaiting the B8 S4, in replacement for the RS4.

I'm first on my dealers list still, but if it's 75K+ here in the States, I'm going to pass.

I have my S heavily modded now and I'll be having the ECU custom tuned soon, so it won't be far off the pace of the RS.

I'll be curious to see what happens with this ZF twin clutch box.

I had heard they were working on something and that BMW AND Ferrari had been talking to them about a twin clutch box, so.....

No all aluminum chasis ?
I thought I had heard that somewhere.
So, looks like there won't be much weight savings, just increased HP. Bummer.

I wonder how the specs of the new M3 saloon will fare when it's shown in a few weeks at Frankfurt.

There's going to be alot of competition out there.
Especially, if the new IS460/500 comes out.

kj

Iceman
September 4th, 2005, 20:58
Originally posted by kujo
I wonder how the specs of the new M3 saloon will fare when it's shown in a few weeks at Frankfurt. kj
Just 10 days.

wfg, Hans.

kujo
September 4th, 2005, 20:59
ahhh, yes.... just 10 days.

I'll mail that magazine out to you this week buddy.
Sorry, for being such a slacker !!! ;-)

kj

Iceman
September 4th, 2005, 21:01
Originally posted by kujo
ahhh, yes.... just 10 days.

I'll mail that magazine out to you this week buddy.
Sorry, for being such a slacker !!! ;-)

kj
No worries mate.

wfg, Hans.