View Full Version : AUDI B7 RS4 (CAR Magazine)
Julz RS4
May 27th, 2005, 19:29
I don't care about their complaints... The Audi RS4 is the best ! :rs4addict
http://img171.echo.cx/img171/7899/rs4p16nb.th.jpg (http://img171.echo.cx/my.php?image=rs4p16nb.jpg) http://img171.echo.cx/img171/6425/rs4p23jh.th.jpg (http://img171.echo.cx/my.php?image=rs4p23jh.jpg) http://img171.echo.cx/img171/5447/rs4p39wv.th.jpg (http://img171.echo.cx/my.php?image=rs4p39wv.jpg) http://img171.echo.cx/img171/6972/rs4p44uh.th.jpg (http://img171.echo.cx/my.php?image=rs4p44uh.jpg)
Benman
May 27th, 2005, 19:51
I don't care about their complaints either. Their "it's still not a Beemer" attitude amuses me. To that, I say: Thank God!:thumb:
Ben:addict:
What a crap article. Not a single praise without a "but". I wonder how much they got paid...
clam
May 28th, 2005, 18:58
Off course the ride is harsh. It's a performance car, and in the physical world perfomance comes at a price. It's called a compromise. And you can't build a car without compromising. Seems like he's been playing too many video games.
exE46M3
May 29th, 2005, 06:31
Originally posted by clam
Off course the ride is harsh. It's a performance car, and in the physical world perfomance comes at a price. It's called a compromise. And you can't build a car without compromising. Seems like he's been playing too many video games.
That's right.
It's amazing how most car reviewers are always complaining about "harshness" in sports cars... Truly pathetic... :doh:
Overall, reviews may help achieve consensus, but they really can't be taken at face value...
Nordschleife
May 29th, 2005, 09:39
Whilst this car review could have been written without actually driving the car outside of the factory compound, and I hasten to add, I do think they DID take it on the street, the remarks about the suspension harshness should not be disreguarded.
Audi's chassis specialists have an acknowledged problem with too much harshness at low speed and too much softness at high speed. This is a tough one, they are pinned in one corner of the envelope and have to chuck everything away and start again, which they haven't done for obvious reasons.
German roads are very smooth compared to most roads in other countries, if the harshness was noticed in Germany, then the car just might be too uncomfortable in some other places. Putting in softer springs may fix the low speed ride and ameliorate the freeway gap thump, but it won't be appreciated when you take the car onto the intestinal stuff.
People coming to Germany to test drive the car won't really notice it as they flog up and down the Autobahn, the ones going to Barcelona won't notice it either, its a smooth F1 race track. Drive the car on the back roads if you can.
performance cars do not have to have harsh rides, the Porsche 911 GT3 RS has softer springs than the regular GT3 and better cornering performance.
R+C
clam
May 29th, 2005, 10:54
Originally posted by Nordschleife
Whilst this car review could have been written without actually driving the car outside of the factory compound, and I hasten to add, I do think they DID take it on the street, the remarks about the suspension harshness should not be disreguarded.
Audi's chassis specialists have an acknowledged problem with too much harshness at low speed and too much softness at high speed. This is a tough one, they are pinned in one corner of the envelope and have to chuck everything away and start again, which they haven't done for obvious reasons.
German roads are very smooth compared to most roads in other countries, if the harshness was noticed in Germany, then the car just might be too uncomfortable in some other places. Putting in softer springs may fix the low speed ride and ameliorate the freeway gap thump, but it won't be appreciated when you take the car onto the intestinal stuff.
People coming to Germany to test drive the car won't really notice it as they flog up and down the Autobahn, the ones going to Barcelona won't notice it either, its a smooth F1 race track. Drive the car on the back roads if you can.
performance cars do not have to have harsh rides, the Porsche 911 GT3 RS has softer springs than the regular GT3 and better cornering performance.
R+C
Like I said; compromise. You simply cannot combine ultimate comfort and ultimate performance. Many have tried, all have have failed. You have to make a choice. And since the RS4 is the RS4, and not the S4, or the A4 TDI, they choice is favour of performance.
The Audi engineers realise the ride is harsh. It wasn't an accident, it's a decision they made. And it's a decision the customer will make. It's a compromise, and not a problem, as the writer suggests.
I wonder how he feels about the suspension of the M3 CSL, which is the bimmer closest to the RS4. He compared the RS4 to the regular M3 when he speaks about price and comfort, but that's a totaly different car. That's S4 territory.
The soft suspension was actually a complaint with the GT3 RS.
http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=105&i=10565
(Cargraphic GT3 RS with revised suspension)
The increased cornering speed versus the regular GT3 was probably due to the areodynamic aids.
Nordschleife
May 29th, 2005, 12:49
Originally posted by clam
Like I said; compromise. You simply cannot combine ultimate comfort and ultimate performance. Many have tried, all have have failed. You have to make a choice. And since the RS4 is the RS4, and not the S4, or the A4 TDI, they choice is favour of performance.
The Audi engineers realise the ride is harsh. It wasn't an accident, it's a decision they made. And it's a decision the customer will make. It's a compromise, and not a problem, as the writer suggests.
I wonder how he feels about the suspension of the M3 CSL, which is the bimmer closest to the RS4. He compared the RS4 to the regular M3 when he speaks about price and comfort, but that's a totaly different car. That's S4 territory.
The soft suspension was actually a complaint with the GT3 RS.
http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=105&i=10565
(Cargraphic GT3 RS with revised suspension)
The increased cornering speed versus the regular GT3 was probably due to the areodynamic aids.
Clam
What planet are you on?
The Audi engineers (and I doubt you have met any of them) did not make a decision to have harsh suspension, its the way it ended up, and they have not been able to fix the problem. As I pointed out the most extreme GT3 has softer suspension than its more normal versions, in part because the engineers had the budget to work on it. You do NOT have to make a choice, there is a difference between a firm ride and a harsh ride, that difference is development time. Also Audi has managed to arrive at the worst possible solution - too harsh at slow speeds and too soft at high speeds, once the development team has got into this corner, its damn hard to get out of, without throwing all the data away and starting from scratch. This is a problem much discussed internally within Audi AG.
What Nick Hall has to say about cars is strongly track day focused, not for cars driven on the road. He puts himself in context by complaining about understeer in all cars apart from certain TVR models. This does tell me he is not from the subtle school of car control. i have driven cars which have won at the Tuners' Grand Prix at Hockenheim. For this event at that particular circuit, the general rule is to make the suspension as hard as you possibly can, its what works there. these cars are vile to drive on even good german roads, which is why so many of them have adjustable shock absorbers, to make them viable under normal driving conditions. As you would know if you looked up from car magazines and got on with life.
The issue of suspension firmness is a major one when it comes to the US market, US roads are suited to softer suspension than is the norm in Germany. It never occurs to me that any of the Porsche GT3s in whichever version have particularly firm suspension, yet American GT3 owners frequently question the suitability of the car as a daily driver or for long trips because of the firm suspension, the conditions are very different.
As far as the M3 CSL is concerned, it has perfectly acceptable suspension in Germany. Although the RS4 has more bhp than the CSL, you might be surprised at the difference in lap times.
So please, do not (mis) quote bloody magazines to support your off the wall assertions. You have NO IDEA whatsoever what the aims of the Audi engineers were. So wind back on the hot air and give us all a break, I pointed out that a generally rather superficial car review had managed to notice one point that would be of concern to all drivers and US drivers in particular.
R+C
QuattroFun
May 29th, 2005, 17:02
Well, I for one have no idea what Audi's engineers targeted with the new RS4's suspension qualities and nor do I care - I only care about the outcome. But if the ride turns out to be as bad as Georg Kacher says, let us just hope that at least body control will be excellent. I just wonder whether the standard 18" wheels might have made a difference?
My question to Nordschliefe is: do you see that there something fundamentally flawed with Audi's chassis design that I as a consumer should be worried about or should I just understand to avoid 19"/35 wheels at any price? Is it the weight distribution or high weight that screws things up or what? In my experince, it is not even down to suspension travel - in some cases and over certain surfaces, I could even swear from the driver's seat that the optional sports suspension for A4 and new and old A6 RS6 included feels more comfortable than the normal one. If it would solely be a development time issue, I doubt that Audi would repeatedly have got the ride comfort/body control mix more or less unsatisfactory in all new models and facelifts since late 90s - although the RS6 with 18" wheels is in fact in my opinon more comfy than the mags claim.
Nordschleife
May 29th, 2005, 19:23
Originally posted by QuattroFun
do you see that there something fundamentally flawed with Audi's chassis design that I as a consumer should be worried about or should I just understand to avoid 19"/35 wheels at any price?
Well, I don't think you need to put your 'worried consumer' hat on yet. Shall we say that the car tested does not have the California suspension package. However, if you look at Audi's new model launch schedule, you can work out for yourself how much time the company has to revise its approach to chassis tuning. this issue was much discussed on the launch of the RS6, the S4 and several other models, has it got any better?
Whilst the 18 inch wheels with taller tyres will offer more shock resistance, they will not address the problem of harshness at low speeds and softness at high speeds. In my experience, I would select the 19 inch rims because the fatter footprint offers noticably better roadholding. but these rims are more likely to suffer damage on poor road surfaces.
Were I wanting to know how the car handles in the conditions of greatest concern, i.e. twisty back roads, i would get hold of the smoothest fast driver I knew and bribe him with the promise of an excellent lunch afterwards and get him to drive the car as fast as he can through a connected series of curves on back roads with average surfaces. Ask yourself as a passenger if you feel comfortable while doing this. By the way I really do mean an expert pilot, if you are in the West I can point you at suitable guys in Southern California and Oregon and also in Chicago.
If you still like the car after this but did feel uncomfortable through thre twisties, then you had better make friends with Stasis, in fact marry them, for you will be going down a long and expensive path, but it will be interesting.
I don't think it helps that weight came out of the rear, it needed to come out of the front, getting weight out of the rear of a car is fairly easy, less so where the front is concerned.
Haring round the track in Barcelona will be enjoyable, but it won't tell anybody much about the car, but I doubt that Audi will let you take one in the Mountains behind to try it on real roads.
R+C
kujo
May 29th, 2005, 19:28
Nord,
What is it with you and the US market ruining this car ?
The roads just about EVERYWHERE outside Germany are just like US roads.
The roads in the UK are not any better than the US.
Audi is going to design special suspension for the UK in future models.
I've been all over Europe, on many occasions.
If Audi, BMW, Merc only designed cars with the suspensions for Germany, they'd kill themselves.
Germany is the best place to drive a car, sure.......
But why always bash the US.
This is the crap that all the Brits say over on rs246 and why I don't bother visiting that site anymore.
NO roads compare to Germany.
Stop using the USA as the martyr for the compromises for this car.
kj
QuattroFun
May 29th, 2005, 20:03
Thx, Nord for the comments/I will still have to think about the RS4 and test drive it of course - I am happy to hear that our American friends can look forward to more supple spring settings for their RS4:s.
However, I am non-German Europe so I guess I have to live with the same suspension setting as Georg on much worse roads and a long winter with real ice and snow, which creates and accentuates the road bumps and makes ride height an issue as well. Unlike for Georg, lack of summer oversteer is not an issue for me as I can 4w drift the car as much as I want and dare in the winter and even my S4 is overengined on best tyres in mid-winter.
For the summer tyres, I am sure you are right about about 19" vs. 18" but I am surprised to hear that 19" are likely to offer much better roadholding when only the side wall is different on the 19/35 vs. 18/40 as both are 255:s.
Nordschleife
May 29th, 2005, 20:16
Originally posted by kujo
Nord,
What is it with you and the US market ruining this car ?
The roads just about EVERYWHERE outside Germany are just like US roads.
The roads in the UK are not any better than the US.
Audi is going to design special suspension for the UK in future models.
I've been all over Europe, on many occasions.
If Audi, BMW, Merc only designed cars with the suspensions for Germany, they'd kill themselves.
Germany is the best place to drive a car, sure.......
But why always bash the US.
This is the crap that all the Brits say over on rs246 and why I don't bother visiting that site anymore.
NO roads compare to Germany.
Stop using the USA as the martyr for the compromises for this car.
kj
Kurt
You are way over-reacting.
Where have I bashed the US? All I have said is that the tested car does not have the California suspension package. This is not knocking the car, nor is it anti-American.
You will get a different suspension package in the US, the German suspension is not suitable for US conditions. The Brits get different suspension as well, although I can assure you that their roads are not as full of potholes as many US roads. It is not yet the norm in Britain for cities to have a department to process claims for damaged wheels as it is in NYC, for example. This last remark is not anti-American either.
I have said that Audi has a problem with its chassis tuning, and that remark is not anti-Audi either, its an observation on an existing condition.
Looking for offence where none exists or is intended is pretty insecure behaviour. I think Uncle Sam is big enough and ugly enough to be able to dispense with your paranoia, don't you. Now have a lovely time in Barcelona, but you won't learn much on the racetrack, nobody ever does, why don't you try and photograph the car in the mountains, then you can decide for yourself how the suspension is on ordinary roads, I'm sure Willi or Olivier vwould be only too happy to oblige, if you set it up ahead of time.
R+C
kujo
May 29th, 2005, 20:47
It's not over reacting.
Nor am I an insecure person.
Am I a proud American ? Yes, but this is CAR related and has nothing to do with that.
It's NON stop comments/concerns about how the car is compromised due to the fact it was designed, knowing it was going to the USA.
There is a plethora of comments over on rs246.com
From you and many others, about how this car is 'Less than it could be' because of it's US destination.
That's why I come here and don't bother with that forum anymore.
Do I expect to get a 'real world' feel of the car on Catalunya ? NO.
I know there is a big difference from the 405S and an F1 Circuit.
Personally, I could care less about CAR Magazine's opinions.
They've always bashed VW/Audi.
Guess Audi doens't buy enough ad space.
" Uncle Sam is big enough and Ugly enough "......
Funny, how does that relate to anything Car/RS4 related ?
Cheers,
Kurt
Nordschleife
May 29th, 2005, 21:18
Kurt
Just relax, its all in your head, nowhere in this thread has anybody said anything about the car being compromised by going to America, although you apparently think that they have.
There has been a discussion about harsh suspension, however. This is a known problem.
George Karcher even criticised the Carrera GT, he is no more anti-Audi than he is anti-Porsche, or anti-Mercedes or anti-BMW. He isn't the best journalist in the world neither is he anywhere near the worst. So your crack about advertising is way off base, again.
Your relationship with the car might be happier if you were a little more dispassionate in your judgement of it.
R+C
exE46M3
May 31st, 2005, 06:05
Originally posted by Nordschleife
...performance cars do not have to have harsh rides, the Porsche 911 GT3 RS has softer springs than the regular GT3 and better cornering performance.
R+C
Oh, and I didn't mean to imply they do...
I guess it all depends on one's definition of "harsh" - maybe even a Buick would feel "harsh" with 19" rims + 255/35 tires on cobblestones... :D
As far as harshness goes, he compares the RS4 to the E46 M3, and I, for one, don't consider the M3 "harsh"... :0:
Nordschleife
May 31st, 2005, 06:50
Originally posted by exE46M3
As far as harshness goes, he compares the RS4 to the E46 M3, and I, for one, don't consider the M3 "harsh"... :0:
this is a comparison which does not compare very well between the US and Europe as the journalist is comparing the E46 M3 with European suspension, which is firmer than the US suspension. I can't comment as I have only driven the M3 CSL, which feels fine on German roads.
As a famous American racer and driver said to me a couple of days ago "I've driven the same cars in the US and in Europe and they are completely different". So direct comparisons are difficult. Similarly, discussion of tyres had better take into account the factory of manufacture as there are great differences between tyres of the same name but from different factories.
R+C
exE46M3
May 31st, 2005, 07:06
Originally posted by Nordschleife
I can't comment as I have only driven the M3 CSL, which feels fine on German roads.
I envy you...
7:53 RS6
May 31st, 2005, 10:40
I accualy own a CSL nowdays, and its ride quality in slow is not that hars, but wow this car can go fast thru corners even that.
tailpipe
May 31st, 2005, 12:18
Just to bring this debate into perspective, one of the reasons the RS4 was shown in Geneva back in March before it goes on sale in October is so that Audi is free to test it in road-going trim without the need for disguise. Six months is a long time to get suspension settings right, especially when the ingredients they've started with are so good. Early tests not just among journalist but a wide range of "experts" means suspension settings can be modified extensively before production begins.
The fundamental issue with the RS4 is, of course, still weight distribution and the engine is still way too far forward versus BMW et all. As noted elsewhere on the boards, ad nauseum, this affects steering feel and ride quality. But let us remind ourselves that while the S4 isn't perfect, it is still a very good machine with real all-weather speed that even an M3 can't match.
I expect the RS4 to absolutely bloody excellent and perfectly tuned to the road conditions of each major market. Of course, there will still be journalists who will criticise it simply for not being a BMW or Porsche. But who cares? People who truly understand what RS means - us - will still buy the car.
tailpipe
May 31st, 2005, 12:21
One other thing.
The pictures in the Car magazine article show the RS4 on pave cobblestone roads. You get a lot of these in France.
More RS cars are stolen in France than in any other market, because no other car gives better traction on such a road surface. May not be the most comfortable ride, but if you're a getaway driver....
'nuff said.
Nordschleife
May 31st, 2005, 12:56
Originally posted by tailpipe
....... one of the reasons the RS4 was shown in Geneva back in March before it goes on sale in October is so that Audi is free to test it in road-going trim without the need for disguise. ..........
........... But let us remind ourselves that while the S4 isn't perfect, it is still a very good machine with real all-weather speed that even an M3 can't match.
I expect the RS4 to absolutely bloody excellent and perfectly tuned to the road conditions of each major market. .
You have made some big stretches there.
You can drive an RS4 development car now and nobody will know its anything special. They have been doing that for a long time.
Look at the overall launch schedule if you want to know why it was released at Geneva.
There are only a finite number of development engineers, I doubt that they will 'get it right' for even one market yet alone all the different markets, Audi has more important cars to get right.
The reality is that a number of people want the RS4 to be all things to all people. Well it won't be.
One of the things that I would bet on is that the suspension will still be too harsh at low speeds at too soft at high speeds. I see further evidence that they have taken weight out of the 'cheap' end, the back, rather than the 'expensive' end, the front. This does not help handling. They are still equiping the car with heavy rotors and callipers, this extra unsprung weight does not help the handling.
As far as the 'real all weather speed that even an M3 can't match', goes, well some of us remember watching M3s run rings round RS6s in the wet in the Speed World Challenge, so even that is not a given.
There is a lot of Pave all over Europe, the photographs in the article are taken in Germany, most cars are pretty good on pave these days.
R+C
Benman
May 31st, 2005, 16:07
Originally posted by kujo
Nord,
What is it with you and the US market ruining this car ?
The roads just about EVERYWHERE outside Germany are just like US roads.
The roads in the UK are not any better than the US.
Stop using the USA as the martyr for the compromises for this car.
kj
Kurt,
I wouldn't exactly call it "ruining" the car, but the fact remains it IS a different car. Look at the RS 6. My car does NOT have the same specs as it's European brother, NO Recaros, NO Nav+, No front bumper parking sensors, No 19" wheels, etc...
And the really bad fact is the Brits GOT all these things. I believe Nord had previously mentioned their suspension is slightly different specs than ours as well. So the point is that we DO get different things in our cars here.
The RS 4 will be no different. There is already good evidence that suggests we will NOT get the real seats and maybe not even the same steering wheel. My point is that if these are "compromised" for the US market, than why is it such a strech for the suspension to be "compromised" for the US as well?
Ben:addict:
Benman
May 31st, 2005, 16:15
Originally posted by Nordschleife
As far as the 'real all weather speed that even an M3 can't match', goes, well some of us remember watching M3s run rings round RS6s in the wet in the Speed World Challenge, so even that is not a given.
R+C
Haha, I remember that race (in fact I have it on tape). The M3s HARDLY "ran rings" (an Audi pun perhaps:D ) around the RS 6s. Pobst was leading most of the race but lost the lead to Auberlain due to driver error, not quattro. After the race, Champion Audi was complaining to the refs that the BMW boys were using different spec sized tires than previously agreed on before the race so as to give them an unfair advantage compared to the tires sizes the RS 6 guys had to use.
Also, I thought you didn't watch the Speed World Challenge GT since its "Hollywood" racing:vhmmm: :D . Does that mean you watch the WWF too? If so, cool, you can let me know how the whole Mysterio/ Guerrero saga is working out.:D
Ben:addict:
Spada
May 31st, 2005, 18:33
Are you gonna go for the new rs4 nord?
Nordschleife
May 31st, 2005, 19:01
Originally posted by Spada
Are you gonna go for the new rs4 nord?
Well at present I have a 2 seater and a 4 seater. What these cars do have in common with the RS4 is that they are normally aspirated and engineered by Audi. But they are ASF cars, unlike the RS4. IfI have a rush of blood to the head I might do a 'development', 'cos I like taking the fixed version back to quattro GmbH and saying 'why didn't you do this?', but that is an expensive luxury!
If I need a parts chaser, I'll put the RS4 right at the top of the list. Oh., the SO has an Aluminium car too, its really a coincidence!
R+C
Nordschleife
May 31st, 2005, 19:13
Ben
I was watching Bill rather than the Audis. Obviously the Audis were pushing too hard in the conditions so the hopelessly outclassed in the wet M3 could pass them. There was no point in Champion winging after the race, the time to do so was before.
Actually Bill is rather good in the wet.
There is nothing to watch on the World Woldlife Fund except fornicating pandas. And they do it so slowly you only need check in once every other week.
Robin
Benman
May 31st, 2005, 19:44
Originally posted by Nordschleife
Ben
Actually Bill is rather good in the wet.
There is nothing to watch on the World Woldlife Fund except fornicating pandas. And they do it so slowly you only need check in once every other week.
Robin
Bill is a very good driver period.
And as for the WWF, I'll take that as a "I'll keep you posted"!:D :thumb:
Ben:addict:
exE46M3
May 31st, 2005, 21:51
Originally posted by 8:29 RS6
I accualy own a CSL nowdays, and its ride quality in slow is not that hars, but wow this car can go fast thru corners even that.
C O N G R A T S! :bow: :applause:
I hope the RS6 is still in your stable...
One thing I would like to know is what this "all weather speed" is? Do you buy a car to race around the highway when its wet. Do you know that in adverse weather conditions there may be factors out of your control at play? Do you know that 4WD can't help you when you aquaplane as ALL 4 wheels are off the ground? Do you know that visibility, grip, braking etc are lower? Do you know that someone that doesn't have quattro but has steamed up windows from the rain might come into your lane because they didn't see your quattro coming up at 100mph. Do you know that in that case quattro can't help you brake any better? ANd if you swerve to avoid this object while you are off the throttle or braking, quattro won't help you?
Don't forget that the moment you lift off the throttle there is no powr going to any wheels. You are driving a no-wheel drive car. And in an emergency 99% of the time you are heading for the brakes.
So not many of us buy a car for "all weather performance". I drive slow in the rain, whether I have a FWD, RWD or 4WD car, 'cos its just dumb to go fast.