Still want that RS4?

[tailpipe]

The picture is becoming clearer in respect of the new S6 model due next year. At first, Audi mooted putting the same 420 bhp V-8 FSI engine from the RS4 into it. It is now confirmed that the 380 bhp version of the FSI V-8 will actually replace the current 4.2 litre V-8. The S6 gets a naturally aspirated version of the new 5.2 litre V-10 and is good for 440 bhp. (Test mules show it delivers 500 bhp quite easily.) Add 60:40 torque split between rear and front wheels plus air suspension and you have one seriously quick machine. But here is the clincher, it'll have a DSG gearbox as well as a 6-speed manual option. Both versions plus Avant and Sedan should make their way to the USA.

There is no doubt that the FSI engine in the new RS4 is truly something special, but this new FSI 5.2 litre V-10 makes even BMW's new V-10 look state-of-the-ark. Talk about a difficult choice. For the moment, I'm sticking with the RS4, but I may just change my mind.

[RXBG]

well. it'll be nice to see some stats and the car itself at the IAA. sounds like the next RS6 will have a biturbo V10 (ridiculous power).

i now doubt that the top line LMQ will have a W12. i'm sure it'll be a V10. i just hope that both versions come out at the same time....

[rheudabaga]

If S6=

US gets Avant
V10
DSG

then i'll tell my dealer, "excuse me, can you switch my RS4 deposit over to the S6 list, please."

You've always got the goods, Tailpipe! When will we start to get some confirmation on these specs. Hopefully before the end of the year, right?

[RXBG]

rheudabaga-

at this rate you'd probably get your S6 delivered at about the same time as an RS4 (almost a year from now- yeesh!)


i'm sure it'll be intro'd this sept

[Iceman]

Originally posted by tailpipe
It is now confirmed that the 380 bhp version of the FSI V-8 will actually replace the current 4.2 litre V-8. The S6 gets a naturally aspirated version of the new 5.2 litre V-10 and is good for 440 bhp.
I don't now were you get your information from but the inside info i have is a little bit different.
The old 4.2-liter V8 (335-344 bhp) get replaced by a new 4.2-liter FSI V8 with 345 bhp.
The Audi S6 will have a 380-400 bhp 4.2-liter FSI V8 (tunedown RS4 engine)
And a 5.2-liter FSI V10 with only 440 bhp is rediculous.
It is more heavy then the 4.2 FSI V8 with only 20 bhp more. :doh:

wfg, Hans.

[RXBG]

oh great. EVERYONE is losing credibility :vhmmm:

don't know what to think any more:brag:

[Radar]

Originally posted by tailpipe
There is no doubt that the FSI engine in the new RS4 is truly something special, but this new FSI 5.2 litre V-10 makes even BMW's new V-10 look state-of-the-ark. Talk about a difficult choice. For the moment, I'm sticking with the RS4, but I may just change my mind.
I would think that the size of the car makes a difference to most. Some people want a compact car while others have a need for more space. I would bet the both cars will be close in terms of performance, but the RS4 may be a bit nimbler.

[rks838]

I'm not sure you can call BMW's V10 "state-of-the-ark" just because Audi's V10 has FSI. After all, BMW's makes 500hp out of 5.0 liters, with Audi's only making 440hp out of 5.2 liters.

Tailpipe's hp numbers seem most accurate. The S6 should have 400-450hp, placing it above the old M5 but below the old RS6 and way below the new M5, leaving that competition for the upcoming RS6. It seems logical that the S4 (maybe also the A6 4.2 and A8) will gain a ~380hp FSI V8, placing it a little below the upcoming M3 and leaving that battle for the upcoming RS4.
Two things don't make sense to me. First, Tailgate, why is Audi producing a 5.2 liter V10 for the S6 that only makes 440hp? The hp number strategically makes sense, but why not make it an FSI V8 instead of using so many liters and two extra cylinders to make only 440hp? It makes them look like they couldn't engineer it well, although Audi crazies like us know that's not true...Second, Iceman, why would Audi make a new 4.2 liter engine for the S4, with FSI, and only give it a meaningless gain of ~5hp? The S4 would then not be in the same league at all with the M3, C55AMG, Cadillac CTS-V, or any such cars...what would it compete with? Without the power to challenge these competitors, what class of cars would be its new target for competition?

[RXBG]

god, i feel like a bunch of girls arguing about dresses! :argue:

no offense to anyone here but it's obvious no one has 100% credible information. i'm sure some of us have "contacts" but no one can be 100% certain.

there is so much that goes on behind the scenes with all these car companies. the competition is delicate. and the companies and the industry as a whole plays by certain rules that are very sublime.

there are certain agreements among bmw and audi i am sure. for example, the german car industry won't shoot itself in the foot by letting the makes go head to head. hence, the S4 and M3- sedan and coupe, RS cars and M cars- always staggered in release, HP numbers between 3 series and A4 always close...

this is why no one ever knows until the car comes out. those germans are plotting till the last minute to keep us on our toes. :)

things will eventually get more clear once the audi and bmw product cycles approximate themselves. then the RS cars will no longer be the competition link between an aging model line and the brand new model line equivalent of bmw. i suspect this will happen towards the end of the B8 model line.

until then we can only conjecture. and my guess is that the B8 S4 will have the FSI V8 (with about 400hp). the upcoming S6...we'll know in a few months or less.

JUST PLEASE- for those of us obssessed with the LMQ- don't post any info with certainty unless you are sure of it. and if so...please state things with a caveat. some of us dreamers are very sensitive to the things we :idea:

[Nordschleife]

For the record, anybody getting their information from marketing people are going to get a lot of misinformation along with the good information.

To make matters worse, the people who do develop the cars enjoy mixing rubbish in with the real information. Specifications remain uncertain until very late in the development cycle. Selling a load of bull to the marketing folk from AOA or the UK is a particularly enjoyable activity for the local guys.

When a car is getting close to release, notice that those who know about it keep very quiet. Audi has no sense of humour about indiscretions at this stage. in one famous instance they even cancelled a whole racing program because the boss of the company doing the work spoke out of turn, once too often.

When you get a business card from a VAG marketing type ask them where their desk is located, in recent weeks I have received a business card with an address in Molsheim, but a desk in Wolfsburg and another with an address in Crewe but actually located in Berlin. Superficially these sorts of people appear to be knowledable but actually get fed misleading rubbish by the people who do the work on the cars.

R+C

[sebdtc]

Hi Guys,

this thread is very interessant, but also confusing for guys like me who are about to buy a new S4. I'm trying to decode pieces of information given by different people here, and as somebody says above, we are sensible :heart:
So you're talking about a new V8 FSI, 345 or 380 hp depending on the sources, on which model will it appear and when ? Should we wait for it ? is it for this year, or next year or for the B8 ?

thanks for the precisions
Sebastien

[RXBG]

in reply to your S4 B8 question. i am going to state with a caveat that i am not 100% sure. however, i think most would agree that there will be no more significant changes to the S4 until the B8 arrives (about 2-3 calendar years away). this includes the engine. lots of people post ideas of wishful thinking. i really doubt the current S4 will get a new engine in any way shape or form.

changing anything about the car makes it very expensive for the company. and audi would not sell an S4 that is only 40 or so horses shy of the RS4.

[sebdtc]

That's also my opinion. And i definitely won't wait until the B8 !

Seb
:s4addict:

[Benman]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
The people who do develop the cars enjoy mixing rubbish in with the real information. Selling a load of bull to the marketing folk from AOA or the UK is a particularly enjoyable activity for the local guys.

R+C
Those sick B@$!@&*$!!!:D

That's just mean...

Ben:addict:

[tailpipe]

Iceman,

My original post contained an error. The standard A6 4.2 gets new FSI with 330-345 bhp not 380. Apologies.

I've actually received conflicting information. What I now say is definitive: Audi is considering both V8 and V10 options for S6. Both types of engine tested in S6 mules. V8 is a detuned version of the RS4's V8, developing 380 bhp. But another school of thought is that the S6 needs substantially more than 400 bhp to be competitive.

The problem is if you put the RS4's engine straight in or one with not much horsepower less, (380), you not only undermine the RS4's uniqueness, you end up with a car that can't take an automatic box and that's bad for the US market. (RS4 engine revs too high for auto.)

Also, the next RS6 is still 2 years away and Audi wants to start having a crack at the M5 using its own V-10, which is ready. For these reasons, they're experimenting with a naturally aspirated V10 in the S6. Hence the car we've seen lapping the ring.

My guess is that next RS6 gets around 520-540 bhp. I don't think that 380 is enough for the S6. I think it needs around 450. That may not be much compared to the new M5 but is still a lot of horses, even for a V10. Therefore, my edicated guess is that Audi will certainly go for the V10 option.

One other thing you should know about all of Audi's non-RS4 V8 FSI's is that they are primarily designed to meet emission requirements and to deliver fuel economy benefits not just power and torque. Faced with two cars that provide 440 bhp, wouldn't you prefer one that runs to 30 mpg rather than 20 mpg?

More fundamentally guys, and we've debated this together often before, why does Audi need both an S6 and an RS6 when BMW makes do with just one M5?

[QuattroFun]

Makes sense, Tailpipe

But if the new RS4 is apparently not as hard core in anything but harsh ride quality as I had hoped for, the S6 is set to be even softer, more compromised and bulkier, despite the (or perhaps due to that heavy) V10.

I guess the answer to the S/RS thing is even less clear now that the RS is not anymore going to be a limited edition model but rather a very pricey recirculation of old albeit revised RS6/Lambo technology in as many copies as the markets can take up.

The S is much closer in spirit - although not hp - to AMG than M and we have yet to see a RS that outdoes the M in its target field qualities (still meaning 4WD but much more raw and uncompromised sportiness to beat M at its own game not just as a daily driver on a rainy day but also when push comes to shove). I am also still disturbed by the fact that the outgoing and not limited RS6 costed more (also as a sedan, that is) than the new M5 and am not too impressed by what I have seen of the RS4's reported qualities (2nd hand in mags, admittedly, so not final view yet) so far given the stiff price tag. I also maintain my view that a supposedly lightweight RS4 Avant is something of a conceptual contradiction - well executed, a lightweight/high revving RS4 sedan may make some sense but why e.g. omit rear electric windows lifts or electric seats in an quasi sports car Avant when you at the same time anyway carry 60kg of Avant deadweight?

Have not yet made up my mind on trading up for the RS4 or not but I am seriously contemplating moving to Porsche - the new Cayman S is no family car of course but it will be in the same price league as the new RS4. Maybe a baby Porsche coupled with the cheapest entry A4 Avant quattro rather one RS4 then?

[Iceman]

"Tailpipe"

What ever it will be we will see.
We can't reveal our sources within Audi but mine is not a sales manager.
The Audi 5.2-liter V10 FSI engine will be the 10 cylinder brother of the RS4 engine and will deliver 460-520 bhp.
That engine will go in the RS6, S8 and Le Mans Quattro (RS9 or RSQ).

wfg, Hans.

[kujo]

Just out of curiousity.......

I've seen alot of Euro/UK posters talk about how the RS is " Not limited " ......

Audi will produce under 8,000 RS4's.

AoA sells 5,000+ S4's in the US alone, each year.

RS models are built for about 16 months time before the next RS model is made.

I don't know the number of M's made per year, but you see about 5 M3's to every 1 S4 here in California, so M's are by no means 'Limited'......

What's the thought process here ? Just curious ?

Kurt

[Benman]

Originally posted by kujo
Just out of curiousity.......

I've seen alot of Euro/UK posters talk about how the RS is " Not limited " ......

Audi will produce under 8,000 RS4's.

AoA sells 5,000+ S4's in the US alone, each year.

What's the thought process here ? Just curious ?

Kurt
Kujo, I hear ya. BMW imported between 15,000-20,000 (?) M5s (last body style) to the US during its run. Compare that to the +/- 1000 RS 6s Audi imported here. Same story with AMG's E55. It seems as if there are already 10,000+ here since it went on sale.

By that reasoning, a RS model is exceedingly rare.

I guess their point is that now it is no longer "limited" per say to a set # of vehicles they will produce. But like Nordschleife brought out before, quattro GmbH is very small in comparision (but I would HARDLY call it a shack) and no matter WHAT the demand, they simply DON'T have the man power to turn out AMG or M Car #s. So it will always be a more limited deal.:thumb:

Ben:addict: