Heresy - The Lexus IS

[tailpipe]

I don't know whether any of you have seen the new Lexus IS either in pictures or in the flesh, but I have been extremely impressed by it. The styling is spot on: coherent, balanced, contemporary and IMHO extremely appealing. The engines are advanced and feature variable valve timing on both induction and exhaust strokes to deliver superb power and economy. The panel gaps are miniscule. The interior cabin design is also exceptional. The quality of materials used together with fit and finish is more than comparable to Audi's. The SatNav system has a touch screen while its menus and controls are all incredibly well laid out and much more intuitive to use. In short, this car is everything that the new BMW 3-Series should have been but wasn't and takes Lexus to a level that is extremely close to the established German marques. If it drives as well as it looks, then not just BMW but also Audi and Mercedes-Benz need to be very afraid. The problem with Lexus is brand image and I'd love to know what Audi fans think of Lexus. Your feedback would be very useful.

[Erik]

They make really good cars, but the cars have no soul what so ever.
They are boring to drive, and not powerful enough.

Like somebody at BMW said att a recent exhibition. "We see them, but they are not ready yet to climb into the high end segment"

[Benman]

Originally posted by Erik
They make really good cars, but the cars have no soul what so ever.
They are boring to drive, and not powerful enough.

This is a pretty accurate statement.

The cars made by Toyota (ahem...Lexus) are EXTREMELY reliable, dependable and faithfull vehicles that make exceptional point A to B transportation. The part about the souls is true (although funny considering that is the EXACT same statemen made by Italian cars against our Audis and BMWs:D ).

They are not as exciting to drive as the German sedan (my father's LS430 is a great example). However, the ownership experience is hands down superior at Lexus (sorry but true).

I'm not ready just yet to trade in my Beast for anything offered by Lexus (because the car is such an addictive JOY!) but in the future if they continue to go down the "driver's path" then the German manufactures should be worried because the car will represent a far better value for dollar (or Euro, Pound Sterling, etc...).

Even the new GS is now available with all wheel drive (not just Audi anymore).


But only having a car for point A to point B reasons is like "only" having sex for procreation.:rolleyes:

Ben:addict:

[Erik]

Did you know this?

Luxury EXport USa. That was their code name, and they kept it.

[Nordschleife]

talking of Lexus and procreation.

The country manager for Lexus in xxxxxx tells me that the Lexus is the most comfortable car for recreational rumpy pumpy, she says its loads better than the mercs she takes out for comparisons.

Its not scientific however, I believe its always with a different partner.

I'm not sure that this is what Detroit or Stuttgart has in mind when talking about customer relations, but it sure beats watching sumo!

R+C

[Benman]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
talking of Lexus and procreation.

The country manager for Lexus in xxxxxx tells me that the Lexus is the most comfortable car for recreational rumpy pumpy, she says its loads better than the mercs she takes out for comparisons.

Its not scientific however, I believe its always with a different partner.

I'm not sure that this is what Detroit or Stuttgart has in mind when talking about customer relations, but it sure beats watching sumo!

R+C
:hihi: :harass:
Well, my,my. I guess there cars aren't as "souless" as we all thought! Now THAT'S the Lexus spirit of giving customer satisfaction!:thumb:

Ben:addict:

[Rrrrr...]

deniros opinion

Click here for clip (http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Best%20CarSalesman)

[RS4Ever]

i chose the first one only becasue it was the closest to what i really wanted to choose.. "they build nice cars, but its not for me- not my type"

ill agree with erik and benman about the soul part... its like a feeling you (i) dont get from them, eventhough they can be great cars.

and yes, the IS does look good... if audi wasnt in the market i think i'd take it over the looks of the new 3 series.

[tailpipe]

Hey, everyone thank you so much for your input here.

:bye: :thumb: :applause:

[R8isGreat]

FOr the past 2 cars I have bought an Audi, while my mother bought a Lexus. Sometimes I have to drive her places an such, so I am in a unique position to be able to offer an opinion on both these manufactuers. If you dont agree I dont care. It is my experence with the cars.

On long trips the Lexus GS gets very uncomfortable very quickly. I have to take a pillow with me and put it behing my back because my back kills me after a few hours.

The leather feels cheep and the materials at first glance look good, but after being with them a few hours they feel cheep and wear poorly.

There is no feedback with the throttle. You cant even tell if you are accelerating besides the sound the engine makes. The steering is numb. At higiway speeds the care is loud and dandels poorly. The wind seeps through the sunroof and maks a hissing sound unless you close the light visor on the inside.

I could go on vorever, but after briving about 10,00 miles in a Lexus GS, I would NEVER buy one. EVER. I hate Lexus and when I get home and get in my Audi, it is like a breath of fresh air. There is SUCH A DIFFFERENCE only driving long miles back to back can demonstrate.

[Benman]

Originally posted by R8isGreat
FOr the past 2 cars I have bought an Audi, while my mother bought a Lexus. Sometimes I have to drive her places an such, so I am in a unique position to be able to offer an opinion on both these manufactuers. If you dont agree I dont care.
:D
What year is her GS? My mother also has a GS (430), what a coinky dink. Hers is a 01, and yes, it is not as good of a car as the A6 (IMHO). However, that car is NOWHERE close to being as good as the LS430 (my father's car). All the complaints you mention about the GS (road and wind noise, cheap interior, etc..) are MUCH better in the LS 430. The poor throtle and steering, although better than the GS, still falls short of my Beast obviously. However, I would say with confidence, that the steering in the LS 430 IS on par with an A6 2.7T (my uncle has one).

The new IS will be better still (a much sportier vehicle than the GS or LS) than the old and with styling that is better than the new 3 Series (I mean come on, it's not like it had much to beat) will make it a no brainer over the BMW. But I'm not in the market for a Bangle product, so I'll stick with my Audi.

Ben:addict:

[R8isGreat]

Her GS is an 04. She had a LS before that. Ultimatly it of corsecomes down to personal preference. I just REALLY despise the looks and performance of Lexus. I would much rather drive a VW than a Lexus. I think her next car is going to be an A6 too. Again, that is just my opinion, so I DONT need anyone here posting Automobile articles on Lexus or any thing trying to dispute opinion. Im not saying it applies for everyone.

[Benman]

Originally posted by R8isGreat
I would much rather drive a VW than a Lexus. Again, that is just my opinion, so I DONT need anyone here posting Automobile articles on Lexus or any thing trying to dispute opinion. :eye: :nono:
Not an Automobile article, just a reply.

[Amar3lio]

Please don´t compare the american LEXUS with the european versions.

Take the example of the IS300..... in the us it´s shit to drive, soft, heavy and so on

Now.... i´ve drive the european version and it´s way better than any AUDI with the same engine capacity.

You doubt, go and test drive one.

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Amar3lio
Please don´t compare the american LEXUS with the european versions.

Take the example of the IS300..... in the us it´s shit to drive, soft, heavy and so on

Now.... i´ve drive the european version and it´s way better than any AUDI with the same engine capacity.

You doubt, go and test drive one.

This would be the Brabus Lexus would it?

'better' all depends on where you a looking from. Lexus is the perfect car for people who don't like cars.

Now a good Japanese car is the Skyline GTR, and I don;t think Lexus has anything to approach that!


R+C

[Amar3lio]

You must be american or at least never drove a euro version lexus.....

when you do you´ll think twice... test drive the is300 euroversion

[Amar3lio]

" Well, it's different. The Lexus looks odd from some angles, the dials are way funky for an exec car and the cargo space is limited and oddly shaped for an estate car. However, the straight-six has gone from two to three litres and it's fast, eager and willing to play when you want, or do the refined executive thing if others are looking. The chassis is a perfect match for the motor, lithe, lean and not very long. Interior is wacky and may date or it may be a classic in ten years time. At least Lexus has had the courage to do something a bit different with the SportCross."

in top gear....

[J0X]

I agree with everything except the driving/handling bit. Don't tell me a euro-spec., manual IS300 is boring to drive.

Tell me the leather feels like plastic, tell me the interior is a early 90s Toyota rip-off, tell me how much of a gas-guzzler the tiny IS200 is - but come on, the 6-spd. 300 ain't a total bore on twisty roads.

[tailpipe]

The comments here are fascinating. It seems that Lexus is pretty close to Audi in the USA but still quite some way behind it in Europe.

In my poll above, Very people agree with the statement that Lexus makes well-built cars that are not good drivers' cars.

Can i ask for responses to these two questions independently:

1. Can you please rate these brands according to how you think they are drivers' cars:

a. BMW
b. Audi
c. Mercedes-Benz
d. Lexus
e. Jaguar

2. Can you rate these cars accrding to how you think they deliver build quality:

a. BMW
b. Audi
c. Mercedes-Benz
d. Lexus
e. Jaguar

3. Can you rate these cars accroding to desriability and brand image?

a. BMW
b. Audi
c. Mercedes-Benz
d. Lexus
e. Jaguar

This is only an ad hoc survey, but your responses will be very much appreciated by a certain group of car executives!

When you're trying to grow your brand, you have to make sure you identify the right target to steal market share from!

[Erik]

Please read verdict

http://cars.msn.co.uk/CarReviewshome/FDLexusGSApril20052/ :boring:

Why diesel? It won't make the car more fun. :vhmmm:

[RAMMIUS]

MANNN what`s wrong with some people ? A post about a goddamn undercover Toyota ? Get real guys , this company was created by some smart japonese to get the money from the american wallets , because of course they couldn`t charge too much on a wimpy toyota !

:vgrumpy:



The european cars are the best in the world , and they set the standars !
I hope i don`t offend anyone .



:king:

[Erik]

For a laugh, read this:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=53049

[RAMMIUS]

:applause:


HEHEHEHEHEHE , certainly not journalists !!!!!:hihi:

[Benman]

Originally posted by RAMMIUS

The european cars are the best in the world , and they set the standars !
I hope i don`t offend anyone .



:king:
No offense taken:D

Best how? For us enthusiasts, yes. But for 85% of the world? Certainly not. For the average John Doe, who uses the car as nothing more than a means of transportation, European car do NOT represent the better value. Far from it. The "lowly" Toyota or Honda is the much better deal. WAY better price, better service (just check the CSI index for most of the dealers in this country), better reliability, more affordable maintenance, better resale, I could go on ALL DAY:D .

My point is that "best" is relative. As an enthusiast, I agree with you. But we are the MINORITY my friend and car manufactures build cars for the MAJORITY.:(

Ben:addict:

[RAMMIUS]

The "lowly" Toyota or Honda is the much better deal. - I agree with you on that .

"WAY better price" - indeed
"better service" - maybe
"better reliability" ???? you`re kidding , right ?
"better resale" - how come? you wanna tell me that a second-hand Honda has better resale value than a BMW or Mercedes ?
These 2 because I know that they are well regarded in USA.


"But we are the MINORITY my friend and car manufactures build cars for the MAJORITY. " -- Indeed , but the majority should take a good look at the technical aspect before buying a car !

:bow: :rs4kiss:

[Benman]

Originally posted by RAMMIUS
The "lowly" Toyota or Honda is the much better deal. - I agree with you on that .

"WAY better price" - indeed
"better service" - maybe
"better reliability" ???? you`re kidding , right ?
"better resale" - how come? you wanna tell me that a second-hand Honda has better resale value than a BMW or Mercedes ?
These 2 because I know that they are well regarded in USA.


"But we are the MINORITY my friend and car manufactures build cars for the MAJORITY. " -- Indeed , but the majority should take a good look at the technical aspect before buying a car !

:bow: :rs4kiss:
1: Better service. I'm getting this from the overall CSI reports. I can't remember how many times I've heard service guys tell me after the customer is gone, "That guy thinks he's got a freaking Mercedes!". The point is that just because customers are paying the fraction of the price for a Honda or Toyota vs a Mercedes they still demand and beleive it or not, are GETTING the kind of service that higher up car buyers get.

2: Better reliability. I would sadly that NO, I'm not kidding. Again, the "lowly" (albiet "souless") Toyotas and Honda can go every bit as long as the high end German cars can. Why do you think there are so many old Toyota trucks that have 200K, 300K, even 400K+ on them and are still running (my coworker has a Honda Accord that has 240K miles and just NOW, he's having reliability issues. Yes, you hear of Mercs with high mileage as well (in fact the all time record for miles on a car is a Volvo with now OVER 2 MILLION MILES!!!!) but the majority of "Jap stuff" just lasts and cost a lot less to make it last.

3: Better resale. Just do a autotrader.com search, it's that simple. You can find a SLUG of (1999) E320s and 528 for @$13K or less. You can find a SLUG of (1999) Accords for $7-$8K. When you consider that the Mercs and BMWs cost $40K-$45K and the Accords cost $19K-$24K, simple math will show that those exampled Mercedes and BMWs are getting 28-32% of there original resale whereas the exampled Hondas are getting 33-37%. Not to mention the fact that it's hard for a Honda to LOSE almost $30K in value when it doesn't even COST that much to begin with!:D

Back to topic, just keep in mind that from an enthusiasts point of view, we love our cars and will make excuses as to why they are "better", faster, more exciting, "sexier", etc...

But for mainstream folk, it's transportation, plain and simple. That's why so many choose Lexus. It represents "better" value to them and our "luxury" cars just don't make sense for them.

Ben:addict:

[Aronis]

Boy this was a harsh thread to read through.

Yes, Lexus bashing on an Audi web forum, what a surprise!

Lexus' products are just fine. The style is distinctive and the cars are well equipped with better electronic gadgets than many cars.

I have never driven a Lexus so have no opinion on their soul, but I have friends who have them and love them!

Different car, different feel, different drivers......

Mike

PS I bet my 1981 Honda Accord and 1987 Honda CRX are still being driven today!Oh hell, perhaps the Accord is dead, but the CRX, still running for sure!

[Erik]

Tailpipe, did you read the latest EVO?

Driven: LEXUS GS430


"It (all the airbags, or "pillows" as they are called) might save me if I'm about to have the BIG accident, but an owner is more likely to die of boredom before this ever arrives. Business as usual at Lexus then."

"I have no desire to drive the GS430 ever again."

I guess Shigetoshi Miyoshi, responsible for the GS430, does not have the same reference as the rest of the world...

[tailpipe]

Hi Erik,

The opinions of journalists are seldom reliable at the best of times, so i take the Evo story with a pinch of salt. Your average E-Class and cooking versions of both BMW 5-Series and Audi A6 aren't exactly dynamite driving expereinces - but that's the point, they're not meant to be, so its a waste of time criticising a car for not being something it never set out to be.

I also just read the initial reports on the new RS4 by Autocar and Car and frankly I find their reviews very neutral and disappointing. They're still comparing the RS4 to the current M3 and I think there's no comparison. Car even suggested that the driving experience was cold and clinical instead of involving and entertaining. What rubbish. So journalists in my book should be viewed strictly as a source of entertainment rather than objective fact. That said Jeremy Clarkson said some quite complimentary things about the new Lexus GS. He praised it for being a better Merc than a Merc, but slammed for being only a copy rather than the real thing itself.

Getting back to the heart of this thread, the new Lexus GS is not yet on a par with the established German marques. The real threat comes from the forthcoming Lexus IS. This is not only a great looking car, but also expected to offer sensational driving dynamics. I not only expect it to give the new 3-Series a fright for its life, but also Audi's next A4 platform. Audi is well advanced in engineering the new B8, but my fear is that they may have underestimated the competition. Hence the discussion prompted by this thread.

In particular, Lexus is developing a 4-wheel drive IS500. That's a direct competitor to the S4/ RS4 with a stunning new V8 engine. Readers are right when they say that Lexus has no soul, but when they start selling RS wannnabee cars for 2/3 of the cost, the market is bound to take note.

[Erik]

Still, Lexus sells hundreds of cars, not thousands.

Perhaps one day they realise that the Lexus is TOO good, and that European drivers want to be involved with were their car is going. "Sport" is selling.

Look it's a MB CLS, BMW 6-series and a SAAB (grill) all in one.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/picture_library/dir_39/car_portal_pic_19616.jpg

I guess Shigetoshi Miyoshi san couldn't deceide which one to copy so he made a Kinder egg.

:asian:

[Benman]

Originally posted by tailpipe
Hi Erik,

The opinions of journalists are seldom reliable at the best of times, so i take the Evo story with a pinch of salt.

So journalists in my book should be viewed strictly as a source of entertainment rather than objective fact. That said Jeremy Clarkson said some quite complimentary things about the new Lexus GS. He praised it for being a better Merc than a Merc, but slammed for being only a copy rather than the real thing itself.


In particular, Lexus is developing a 4-wheel drive IS500. That's a direct competitor to the S4/ RS4 with a stunning new V8 engine. Readers are right when they say that Lexus has no soul, but when they start selling RS wannnabee cars for 2/3 of the cost, the market is bound to take note.

I pretty much agree with everything just said by Tailpipe.

EVO is VERY biased with there certain favorite cars (as I am with Audi:p ). I also view the articles more as entertainment than info (and of course they have great pics!).

And when Lexus starts coming out with their version of M and RS cars, watch out! Remember that Toyota has MORE $$$ to spend than ANY OTHER CAR MANUFACTURE IN THE WORLD. I thought they were a JOKE for the last three years in F1 (which they were), but now look, they're a contender! From 3 years without evn ONE podium finish to nearly a podium finish EVRY RACE this year. Big turnaround. My point is that Toyota IS willing to spend what it takes to make their cars more appealing and it WILL show in the years to come.

And Erik, as for hundreds vs thousands, that might be out there, but here in overweight America, Lexus sells TENS OF THOUSANDS, with more to come.:thumb:

Ben:addict:

[audi713]

This is for the comment about Lexus ownership experience is hands down superior at Lexus (sorry but true). I think Audi provides superior service compare to Lexas. I own a Audi and a MB....my dealer goes out of there way to make sure im happy with my service. My sis owns a Lexas its been nothing but problems that are not covered in warrenty. They really do give her the run around over everything. Its a good car... low miles....no engine problems just really bad service compared to mine at Audi.

[Aronis]

Road and Track
June 2005
Page 27

Quote:

"While Audi is highly regarded in the enthusiast community, it has YET TO BREAK OUT INTO THE MAINSTREAM as an Equal to such margues as Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and LEXUS, at least on this side of the Atlantic."

What the hell kind of bull shit is that!?!?!

So Lexus, at least according to Road and Track, is equal to MB and BMW? And Audi is an also ran?

That is news to me.

Mike

PS, EDITTED OUCH Infiniti M45 supposedly out does the BMW 545i. WOW....talk about unseating the champ!

[Erik]

Originally posted by Benman
And Erik, as for hundreds vs thousands, that might be out there, but here in overweight America, Lexus sells TENS OF THOUSANDS, with more to come.


I know. But they really need to work on their sportier image.
But I am sure they work on a long term basis. F1 is just one proof of that.

But that's why Lexus is called Lexus and not LexEU or LexUK. ;)

Lexus = Luxury EXport USa, internal code name that later became the brand name.

[Nordschleife]

raving about the Lexus defines the expectations and desires of the raver.

R+C

[Benman]

Originally posted by Aronis


PS, Lexus M45 supposedly out does the BMW 545i. WOW....talk about unseating the champ!
Mike,

I think you mean Infiniti M45. Infiniti has always went after the BMW crowd, whereas Lexus has traditionally concentrated on the Mercedes crowd. As for the Road & Track, I've heard those kind of comments before. In the US, Lexus does extremely well in their sales and CSI, gaining alot of attention.

audi713,

May I ask what kind of Lexus your sister has? Between my father and mother and close friends, they've owned nine. With ALL of their cars they've had the best of service. I ask the model because it does matter, just as it does with Audi. Sometimes it's the guys with the base model A4 who wants the best service. At Lexus, the same maybe true. I would find it hard to swallow that your sister has the top of the line LS 430 and still gets the runaround (although anything is possible).

I know that's biased, but in the real world, top model customers get top model service (usually).

Erik,

that was my point. Here in the States, Lexus does very well indeed. In Europe, different story. Both times in Germany I didn't see hardly ANY on the Autobahn. Here they are a daily sight (hourly sight). When Lexus was formed they never intended to go after the BMW market. The target was Mercedes and they have done an exceptional job taking large chunks of that market away from Mercedes. It only took them ten short years to make a solid name for their company here (the same cannot be said of Acura or Infiniti whos COMBINED sales fell short of Lexus).

Now that they accomplished a solid foundation, it will be time for them to take on BMW. Time will tell. And I am most certainlly NOT raving over Lexus. I've been trying to get my father to convert for years. Just stating that Lexus DOES have its strengths.

Ben:addict:

[Aronis]

Opps, I corrected that LOL..

Mike

[audi713]

Yea she has a 03 GS430.....maybe its just bad dealers in houston I dont know. Its almost paid off....she said she wants to trade it in for a audi. She works hard for her money they just dont treat her right. I have 02 S4 and a 03 clk55 and I get great service from both dealers. The 55 seems so girly but I actually took over the payment from a friend that bought it after 7 months of ownership.

[Benman]

Originally posted by audi713
Yea she has a 03 GS430.....maybe its just bad dealers in houston I dont know.
Maybe it is just the dealer as that is NOT an entry level model (@$60K with options).

There will always be bad dealers but that is still very unusual for Lexus. Their service is the MAIN thing they have going for them and it's rare to see one do poorly in that regard.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Erik]

2007 Lexus LF-A Gets a Workout on the Nurburgring

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=105484


:revs:

[Benman]

Originally posted by Erik
2007 Lexus LF-A Gets a Workout on the Nurburgring

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=105484


:revs:
Nice find. There stuff seems to be coming along. Should give some of the super cars a run for the $$$

Ben:addict: