Too many problems: Is it all high performance vehicles?"

[JAXRS6]

After putting 34K miles on my RS6 since its U.S. delivery 18 months ago, I have reached two conclusions:

1. I love it.

2. I hate it.

The love part is easy to explain & well known by anyone here who has driven an RS6: Power, panache, and uniqueness in its combination of performance, room and AWD.

The hate part is best explained by simply saying that out of those 18 months, at least two of them have been spent in the shop. Probably more, but right now I'm too depressed to do the calculations.

So I'm wondering...is this common to all high performance cars? Or is it just the RS6, or maybe just MY RS6?

I owned a 2000 S4 and had minimal problems compared to the RS6. Still, a lot more high tech went into producing 450 hp vs 250, I'm sure. The biggest RS6 problem in terms of time turned out to be a big waste of time, i.e. waiting for a main engine crank pulley from Germany that was here all along but Audi of America didn't know it (search for "snafu" under my name to find the thread). That cost a month on a hoist, which pissed off even the dealer.

Currently, after a 10 hour effort to locate & fix a banging metal rattle, two rear suspension struts have been ordered. One arrived, but the other must come from Germany. Figure four days to two weeks more, the dealer service advisor says. The car already has been there two weeks.

Then there is cost. None so far under warranty, but the future does not look good. At my 35K maintenance everyone, including two dealer service departments, was amazed to learn that a new timing belt was called for. Paid for now, of course, but at the 75K service that will be my responsibility at an estimated cost of $1200-1300 (just for the timing belt, not other maintenance costs). And I must do it if I am to keep in force the extended warranty, for which I already paid $3200.

Also, brake rotors & pads will cost $2000 in parts alone. And, since searching for rattles is covered under current warranty but won't be covered in the extended warranty, I would be paying for 10 hours labor if this came up after 50K miles -- and still not have it solved for sure. The struts on order are an attempt to solve the banging-metal rattle, but there is no assurance it they will solve it.

I spend half my life in a somewhat small town and am so sick & tired of the half-day trip to an Audi dealership, plus driving a POS for weeks at a time after spending more than twice my previous record high for the RS6, that I am starting to "look" but limiting my search to brands with dealerships here. That means no European brands at all; Caddy also is far. Currently considering GTO, Vette, and forthcoming Chrysler 300C SRT8 as alternatives, but I'm open to suggestions. S2000 and 350Z are possibilities if I can live without being able to travel with girlfriend & her dog at the same time.

Or am I not being realistic because combining reliability & performance is an oxymoron?:confused: :confused: :confused:

PS - Just had a thought: Maybe I need TWO cars to replace the RS6. One might be something like a two-year-old Vette, while the other might be more reliable & economical. I know Vettes are not the most reliable, but can someone here comment on its cost of repair vs. German cars?

[Benman]

Jax,

Sorry for your frustrations. Quality issues can happen with all cars but at the same time should not be an ongoing common thing. My RS 6 has "only" 24K and has to date had no issues except a very minor rattling from the dash (I doubt will ever go away) and needed new front brake pads. Other than that I've been fortunate to say the car has been a dream. To pay $85K+ for something that then spends 1/6th of it's life at the dealer is not a fair experience for the owner.

As for other cars, it does seem that the higher up the "food chain" you go, the more problems seem to happen. Ferrari is a good example. I don't know of any personal examples where people have purchased one for sticker (brand new, they all seem to have very high mark ups) so they're spending $200K+ for a car that has horrible reliability issues. Sure they run great as long as you give the car a MAJOR overhaul every 5K!:bigeyes: Talking to one individual, he was saying that it costs him anywhere from $3-$5K every time his car visits the dealer!:bigeyes: Man, with that kinda price tag, you'd think they'd have free maintenance!

There are exception though. Take Porsche. I've heard from many Porsche owners (most Ferrari converts!) that their cars are comparitively affordable to maintain and prove to be very reliable. Also for the performance the Corvette seems to have descent reliability issues (pays to have a low stresses engine sometimes). Also with Corvette, you have low running costs. It gets great gas mileage for what it is, low insurance costs (dispite being a 2 door, V8) and parts are much cheaper to replace than European models.

So no, I would not say that performance & reliability are an oxymoron, just depends on what you're willing to put up with. Me, I don't think I'd ever own a Ferrari over a Porsche due to the EXAGGERATED running costs. The performance advantage is almost NONEXISTANT and the Porsche is much more affordable (both at purchase time and long term). Obviously the Ferrari will turn more heads but I could care less about that (Hense the RS 6, where I have yet to get a cop to notice me:0: ).

Whatever you end up getting or keeping, I wish you luck.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[JAXRS6]

Thank you Benman! Comments re costs of upkeep on a Vette vs Porsche are very helpful. I have a great deal of respect for Porsche and would consider a Boxster if a P dealer was close by. Among other things I appreciate its superior depreciation.

I'm a little calmer now and can't edit what I wrote, so I want to clarify that my current dealer loaner is not really a POS. I started with an Impala that made strange drivetrain noises, then turned it in to get a Sebring convertible at Enterprise down the road from the dealership. Perfect for Florida, so I really shouldn't complain about that.

I drove some cars today. The 350Z was fun but won't work with girlfriend + small dog on long trips, and that's when we take the dog. The Honda Accord Hybrid seems a worthy competitor in its price range, quick with decent handling, a measure of luxury and, of course, outstanding mpg. Plus Honda reliability. (I didn't drive the S2000 because it won't work for g/f & dog either, so why bother? I drove one a few years ago.)

The 300C Hemi was impressive on a second visit, especially with "real California walnut" trim expanded to the center console (aftermarket but looked OEM). The forthcoming SRT 8 will not have available AWD, tho, while the current hemi does. Also, Chrysler is abbreviating the warranty on the SRT 8. Still 3/36 bumper to bumper, but no more 7/70 drivetrain "because it's an SRT," as the salesman said. Extending warranty to 7/70 for drivetrain reportedly would cost $2-3K.

But the 340 hp 300C will be affected by the additional 300 lbs for AWD, right? A salesman earlier denied that, and the one today said the rest of the car is changed to compensate, but getting the AWD advantage would have a price IMO.

So I ended up at the Chevy dealer, ogling a Vette but being told for the second time that they don't let people test drive their Vettes -- because owners like them to be delivered with very low miles, like the two miles on today's car. The plastic surrounding the center console looked cheap, but otherwise it looked great...if you don't mind a big rear end (I don't, on this car). The shorter overhangs are both obvious and attractive, and no doubt contribute to improved handling. There's a spot for the small dog right behind the center console, needing only its own cargo netting to keep him safe. And a 60-something owner of a new C6 pulled up with a big smile. I asked him about ride quality (he shrugged, said "very comfortable") and mpg (20 during his first tankful, which he described as "only city driving"). His summation: "Fantastic!" (at 400 miles). The new Vette, at $60K out the door, is the most I can afford -- after maybe finding a home for the RS6. Extended warranty available but I forgot to ask about cost.

Then I went grocery shopping.

I still haven't given up on the RS6. Not completely. I have to leave open the possibility that when I get it back it will drive like its normal fantastic self with no clanging, and that I will fall in love all over again.

But...something like the rattle problem could happen again, right? That's what I have to think about. I would be willing to foot the expected maintenance bills if the car avoids future downtime, but that's a big if.

:vhmmm: :vhmmm: :vhmmm:

Additional input encouraged, especially on the question posed just before the three question mark icons in my opening post:thumb: For example, is buying a new Vette such a bad idea? I would expect some shop time with such a car, but I also would hope for less expense over the long run. But the older ones do have a reputation for rattles, right? Does anyone here own, or used to own, a C5 or C6 & care to share?

PS - The 05 GTO, with its 400 hp matching the Vette, has not yet arrived here.

[Benman]

Originally posted by JAXRS6


I'm a little calmer now and can't edit what I wrote, so I want to clarify that my current dealer loaner is not really a POS. I started with an Impala

The new Vette, at $60K out the door, is the most I can afford -- after maybe finding a home for the RS6.



Additional input encouraged!:thumb: For example, is buying a new Vette such a bad idea? I would expect some shop time with such a car, but I also would hope for less expense over the long run.
The Impala is not a bad car, but when you are used to having a RS 6 around, it IS a POS:D

The new vette is indeed an EXCELLENT value for the dollar. It will depend on your needs but if occasional shopping is in store it is reported to have bigger trunk (rear hatch) space than the previous model so it should handle your needs well enough (unless you spend $600-$800.00 dollars at a time at Costco:D ).

If you wanted to save a little than a used Z06 would be my second choice. There's one on Autotrader in my region, 03 with only 6K miles!for $39K and a 01 with 28K miles for $32K. Used might not be what you want but depreciation would be much better (there's a lot of folks on this board just waiting for the price of our Beasts to drop so they can pick one up;) ) and with all the money you save you could easily afford any reliability issues. An added plus is that since it's already used you won't be so obsessed with dings or chips (I cringe at the thought:nono: ).

On the other hand if you waited for the NEW Z06, you'd have the King Daddy of American Performance! But then again, that might get a little:deal:

I hope when you get your Beast back it meets your satisfaction and you'll decide to keep it a bit longer:0:

Ben:addict:

[Gustav]

We did this wihtout problems with tuned M cars :race:

http://www.m5board.com/articles.php?id=28

[JAXRS6]

Wow, Gustav's post got me thinking. I've never owned an M but the 1975.5 530i which I bought new, and later regretted selling, may be the best car I've had. This was before Ms, of course, and it was powered by what one mag wag dubbed "the most sophisticated in-line six in the world" at that time. I still recall a moment near the beach by LA: Four guys in the car, I stomp on it for a second gear rush, and the Porsche owner in the back seat says, "Wow, where did THAT come from?!"

Pretty reliable too. I had to replace brake rotors every 10-12K miles or so, which was a pain and not cheap, but otherwise it didn't break much and had no overnight downtime that I recall. Had it five years -- my longest stretch of ownership.

Makes me wish I was near a beemer deeler. Moving to a bigger city would open up other brands, too.

Hmmmm...moving to accomodate a car? I've thought about that before and rejected the idea, due to traffic & other concerns, but maybe I should reconsider. With no decision needed anyway until after I hear more from the dealership.

***NEWS FLASH*** Audi dealer just called, strut is in, tech is working on my beast -- hopefully ready tomorrow. :D Even Friday would be OK. Stay tuned.

[Benman]

Originally posted by JAXRS6
Wow, Gustav's post got me thinking.

Makes me wish I was near a beemer deeler. Moving to a bigger city would open up other brands, too.

Hmmmm...moving to accomodate a car?
Gustavo, STAY OFF THIS FORUM!!!!:D

Ben:addict:

[Gustav]

:applause: 530i is good as well :bye:

[gjg]

We did this wihtout problems with tuned M cars


yeah, if you need an extender ....... :harass:

JAX, it sounds like you have some bad luck with the beast, mine been pretty fault free - not even a rattle like Ben.

:(

[Audihead]

Hey Jack, try some felt tape around the locking bar on the rear seats, where the seat latches in place. Most B6 A4's and S4's have this problem w/ it rattling. It's worth a try. Worked for me.

:s4addict:

[Gustav]

Originally posted by gjg


yeah, if you need an extender ....... :harass:
:( :confused:

[JAXRS6]

:D :D
OK, I'm a happy camper for now. Got car back, runs good, no rattles after DRC components replaced rather than actual struts. Details here:

http://www2.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5863

But this thread really is about another subject, i.e. reliability of all high performance cars (especially but not only Audis), so I hope anyone who wants to continue on that subject will do so. I'll certainly tune in, and I hope no one was offended by my venting in the opening post.


Meantime I do appreciate the sympathetic sentiments expressed -- and hope "this is it" for downtime problems at my end, at least for a long time!