Magazine test: RS6, M5, CTS-V, C55,...

[steve]

Hi all,

Here's a dutch test where they test some "sport"cars.
Impressive to see that all the sprint-times from the RS6 are faster than the M5. Caddy is pretty nice too :)

http://www.technowings.com/Images/Autovisie_Test.jpg

Funny what's written under the section "ACCELERATIEMETINGEN" or acceleration-times =
"The mesurements had to be done on a humid track. To reduce the influence of tractionproblems the tests were done with a rolling start from 10kph:D :p :rs6kiss: "

Volvo is pretty slow btw :confused:

Greetz,

Steve

[Erik]

That's interesting. A rolling start should give the new M5 an advantage, but it doesn't. :vhmmm:

Great to see the RS6 Plus perform so well.

[SpinEcho]

Wow! I would have thought the M5 would slightly outperform the RS6+, especially at higher speeds. Go RS! :addict: :addict:

(You just know this test is going to be done by other mags - it will be interesting to see the results. Also - where's the E55?)

[Erik]

http://www.autovisie.nl/_internal/cimg!0/3uf5pgsm63z9p

[steve]

transl:

"Is the M5 the worlds nicest supersedan?" Maybe, but not the nicest SuperAvant !:D

[Aronis]

How does a chipped RS6 do against a stock RS6 Plus???

Mike

[A418TQTip]

Go :addict:

Now, if those numbers are correct, 0-200 times published by other mags have got to be wrong. I mean, how can the M5 go from 0 to 200 in 13.8s when it took 12.2s to go from 10 to 160? :vhmmm:

[gjg]

Now, if those numbers are correct, 0-200 times published by other mags have got to be wrong. I mean, how can the M5 go from 0 to 200 in 13.8s when it took 12.2s to go from 10 to 160?

depends - if this is done in specific gear instead of shifting ......

[gjg]

what are the Dutch taxes ? 150k Euro price for + seems bit high, the "extender" is about 15% less ......:confused:

[audirs6sport]

Originally posted by Aronis
How does a chipped RS6 do against a stock RS6 Plus???

Mike

Depending on which chip you are talking about. I heard APR chip actually decreased 10 hp when dyno tested.

[Speedou]

Originally posted by A418TQTip
Go :addict:

Now, if those numbers are correct, 0-200 times published by other mags have got to be wrong. I mean, how can the M5 go from 0 to 200 in 13.8s when it took 12.2s to go from 10 to 160? :vhmmm:

It was on wet, so M5 can't find grip. Maybe even after 100 it's hard?

[GustavDK]

Guys guys guys... The M5 can do a wheelie on a DRY track with 80 km/h, so it is not strange that your RS6 is much faster, because its 4wd driven. AND you forget that the M5 actually sets the fastest lap even when the road is wet.. Haha.. The BMW company got some good engineering going on huh? :mech: :revs:

[Erik]

Originally posted by GustavDK
AND you forget that the M5 actually sets the fastest lap even when the road is wet..

Actually the track test was in the dry. :argue:

The M5 might be the best supersaloon - at the moment (oh, forgot, no M5s reached customers yet) - but the RS6 Plus is the best SuperAvant :rs6kiss:

[Aronis]

Sounding a bit Caddy now?? No Pun Intended...

RS6 Plus is the ONLY super Avant....

LOL

Mike

[GustavDK]

Originally posted by Erik
Actually the track test was in the dry. :argue:

The M5 might be the best supersaloon - at the moment (oh, forgot, no M5s reached customers yet) - but the RS6 Plus is the best SuperAvant :rs6kiss:

Ah whatever! I cant read dutch lol. I dunno about you, but where I live there is more sunshine than rain so I would rather prefer a car which is better at dry conditions... :incar:

[Ruergard]

Go Go Audi! :addict:
It was funny to read this, but i thought that the M5 would be much faster :confused:

[J0X]

You'd think that the M5 with all their snazzy gizmos in way of driver-assisted-electronics would perform better than that, no? Whew, that's rough.

I'm sorry but –_Seat Ibiza. WTF?

[Aronis]

The new M5 is an improvement on the prior already excellent M5, despite weither or not it is much faster than the RS6.

The question is will the M5 brakes overheat with hard driving? Like the RS6.

Will the drive train break if you drive it hard? Like the RS6.

Etc...

Let's see when they are actually on the road where the M5 will sit in the real world.

Mike

[SpinEcho]

Mike

Interesting question, and one which may have been partly answered already. Both evo and Autocar magazines have pre-tested the M5 and made comments about brake grumbling/fade from high speed stops on the road. A few other publications (Car, Bimmer and BMW Car) described the brakes as fade-free on the road. I'm inclined to trust the former mags more than the latter, based on what I've read before.

No mention of the transmission, although it will take some time to see if it has long-term reliability, I guess.

As an interesting aside on the brake issue, Bimmer mag's recent article on the M5 has a short description of conversations with Klaus Schmidt (BMW M engineer) and Steve Dinan. Both seem to think fixed, multipiston calipers are overrated. Schmidt: "the sliding caliper design allows for a stiffer caliper 'bridge' and thus better pedal feel...aluminum calipers with four, six or even eight pistons favored by other manufacturers are an inferior concept from an engineering standpoint."

Sounds like a cheap excuse for a cost-cutting measure. I guess Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, AMG and Audi are all dummies for using fixed calipers on their high-end cars.... who knew?

[Avus_RS6 - E55]

Originally posted by Erik
- at the moment (oh, forgot, no M5s reached customers yet) -


LOL!!! That's so funny! :D

[Aronis]

Good question....

Please describe the difference between a fixed caliper and I guess a non-fixed or floating caliper? Which car's have the non-fixed?

As far as the at the limit issues of the RS6 brakes, I doubt this will ever be an issue for me, I don't get out on the road enough LOL....working to often....

Thank God for RS6.Com or I would not have any Car Guys to chat with....

Where I live is TRUCK country LOL.. Its so rare for anyone to even notice I am driving a non US car, never the less an Audi, and only about 3 people in town know what an RS6 is

Mike:360:

[SpinEcho]

Fixed caliper: caliper rigidly bolted to steering knuckle or other mounting point. Has opposed pistons. Often multipiston (more even pad pressure), usually aluminum (light). Other advantages: better pedal feel and modulation secondary to opposed pistons and caliper rigidity. Disadvantages: expensive, more prone to squeal, more sensitive to vibration from uneven pad deposition (so-called "warping"). Standard on all current Porsches, Lamborghinis and Ferraris, most AMG, RS6 and S8 (front only), Jag S-Type R, Volvo S60R, McLaren F1 etc.

Floating caliper: piston(s) (usu. only 1 or 2) on inboard side of caliper. Compresses pad on same side directly; compresses pad on outboard side by means of sliding pins connecting the two halves. Advantages: cheaper, tolerates uneven pad depostion better. Disadvantages: heavier (often cast iron), more flexible and therefore worse pedal feel/modulation, more maintenance (moving parts). Most common disc brake caliper, used on most cars, including all current BMWs (M's too!), rear brakes of Audi RS6 and S8.

Not to be confused with floating discs (2 piece discs with tolerance for expansion where the 2 parts are mounted together).

:thumb: :idea:

[R8isGreat]

It has been my experience that U.S. car magazines tend to embelish BMW performance stats a little. Also that BMW seems to do the same for their own performance stats. BMW reports times for their cars that are better than U.S. Mags report, and the Mags performance times are better times than the car actually has. Some US car Mags seem to have a bias towards BMW for some reason, and seem not to be objective. Now I AM biased to AUDI and VAG, but it has also been my experience that VAG and Audi under rate their cars performance. Several articles I have read in publications such as European Car, report better times that Audi does for Audi cars, and actually state that Audi has UNDER RATED the cars performance. I guess the folks at VAG are confident in their products and dont feel the need to invent unreal numbers for their cars.
Audi also didnt need to run a V8 car at LeMans when they have a V6 in the production car like BMW did. Did they make 1 M3 GTR, obviously not and thats why they got shut down.
Theres my 2cents.:alig:

[SpinEcho]

Funny, it's always been my impression that BMW is conservative with their performance claims, like Porsche and VAG. As for the magazines, well, if you're referring to Motor Trend, they post consistently better times than anyone else and I think they are full of sh*t.

[5000S old skool]

I just think it's great that the RS6+ isnt even in production anymore and it still the gives the new M5 a real run for its money!! :addict: :rs6kiss:

[R8isGreat]

For example, BMW posts 0-60 for the E46 M3 at 4.3, and European car posts it at 4.8. Thats half a second difference. In the motorsports world, companies spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to shave half a second, and BMW does it with one embelishment. I have driven the M3 and while it is a great car, I have also driven the Beast RS6. No contest the Beast is superior. I think that the RS6 has a faster time 0-60 than audi lists it at. I know conditions of the test affect the results as well.
Also in the May 04 Automobile, there are over 26 pictures that hava a BMW in it, and 2 Multipage stories, and at leist 5 small stories with a BMW in it. A BMW is on the cover. There are in that same issue, 6 pictures of an Audi, with 1 story and 3 small stories on them.
I think that some old school bias is seeping into what is supposed to be objective journalism.

[Erik]

Originally posted by R8isGreat
For example, BMW posts 0-60 for the E46 M3 at 4.3, and European car posts it at 4.8. Thats half a second difference.

Remember that there might be a gear change :stick: in between.

Very common that times between 0-60 mph (60 mph = 96.54 km/h) and 0-100 km/h differ by "a lot."

[SpinEcho]

Originally posted by R8isGreat
For example, BMW posts 0-60 for the E46 M3 at 4.3

Please provide a reference.

Here is my reference, straight from the BMW USA website, claiming a 0-60 mph time of 4.8 seconds: http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/M/M3Coupe/techdata.htm

[A418TQTip]

Originally posted by R8isGreat
I have driven the M3 and while it is a great car, I have also driven the Beast RS6. No contest the Beast is superior.

I have driven the M3 and agree it's a great car.

However, even though I have never driven the RS6, I don't think one can really compare both. They are very different cars.

Example: while I have no doubt the RS6 would leave the M3 for dead off the line, it would get murdered on a track...

I guess what I'm trying to say is: define superior... :D

[7:53 RS6]

Not to strange that diffrent mags get diffrent 0-100km times, and personaly i dont care if a car is 0,3 or 0,6 sek faster or slower in one mag than other mag, of course it will be(many reasons for this as said). This mean nothing for me in real life.

A car is so much moore than 0-100km times in my mind. And whats writhen is not always a fact.

Other thing i think is that its made many stock m5 E60 but not all of them are to preform the same of course. And over time preformans will maybee even differ more on the same sort of cars depending on various things.(all other cars as well)


I think If a car magazin say breakes are bad on a for exampel m5 E60 that they and many moore magz have tested, it do not mean that its fact.

What are bad breakes?

Try your selves and see what you think whit your M5 e60 and see to it to have real and fresh breake oil and pads on.

"Dont take what you read as fact its not, its some peopels wiew and how they look at it."

This is fore sure not your wiew of the mater,(if you have not tried it by you selves) then dont pass it on.

For exampel there could be many reasons that a thing like the breakes could not preform on a press car that is driven whit no sense repeatedly by car journalist. And often the brand that deliverd the car is not that focused when having the car back that they see to some importent things as say breake fluid.

Then the car go to the next journalist whit the same old breake oil that have faded(boiled) and this go on often on press cars. But remember once oil have faded it loses its maximum point and get a lower tolerans point. Result could be hey...this car has shit breakes...it fade very easy...the breake pedal go mushy and hit the flor.

No wrong at the breakes here just driven by many different peopel(driving style) whit often no time to rest and bad oil!

Well this is fact and you would hope the brand was more focused and checking their cars before leaving them out to carmagz,,,,,but all are not.

Audi did hand out cars to AMS(auto motor sport) once and i was whit them on track this day.
The RS6+ whit no tiers left also to much pressure in tier and pad dissposal on rotors. Guess what the word was on that RS6+........ bad reputation.. shit car(but it was far from really).

The turn in abiletis was poor(plenty of to much air) and big vibrations in the car under breaking. Hell even the AMS guys said the car the car sucks....even more potential costumers.

Unfair and not a god way to show a car and hand it out like this when Audi know its fore track day use. Even Peopel at AMS did think the car was broken cuse the big vibrations and said no more driving. I had to tell them its no problem to drive this car its most wibrations when rotor is cold but when hot its les or next to nothing, and i also let out plenty of air until it did turn in as should.
Hell even Fredrik Ekblom(STCC) said RS6+ turn in bad after driving it before i let out air.

Small thing you say but peopel are still talking of how bad RS6 is since this event. But its not.

[SpinEcho]

All valid points, but the fact remains that the brakes on the RS6 won't stand up to repeated, hard use. This needs to be put in perspective, however. Most people will never have a problem with these brakes on the road. And most other cars will have the same problem, often earlier - it's just that performance cars like the RS6 tend to be judged more harshly.

I don't doubt the M5's brakes are the same. After all, the E46 M3 doesn't have a great reputation for its brake durability in hard use.

[R8isGreat]

My bad, bad info on the M3 0-60 time. :: doh: But I still contend that Car mags are biased to BMW. Thats my opinion. Also, I contend that while track times are important, most people on this forum probably drive more on the roads of their local town than the super speedway, or the Ring. Most people, approx 99% of them.
Im not sure about this "My car is better on the track even though yours is better in the city" approach. Taking this argument to conclusion results in fact that the BMW F1 caw would beat an RS6 on the track too, but how easy is it to go over a railroad track. Like I said, I am the master of no man, and dont contend to know as much as you guys do, so what do you think of the trackability vs. streetability line of reason. WHich is more important. I dont know. One seems to be bragging rights and the other seems to be everyday usefullness. I know the track tech spills onto the street. Thoughts???:confused: