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tailpipe
October 18th, 2004, 19:46
Friends,

I don't know about you, but I think Freeman Thomas started a movement at Audi with the TT. What a fantastic design it was and remains. The guy is a genius. The lines of his designs have an elegant simplicity that belies the huge effort that must have gone into creating them. So Bauhaus and German, yet appealing, fresh and contemporary.

The TT led to the A2, B6 A4 and A8 while building nicely on the existing A6. In fact, while the TT was desirable in its own right, it made other cars in the Audi range desirable too. Suddenly Audi had a design language that was the talk of the Industry. Cool, understated and timeless. When the RS6 came out, it was THE car to have for all these reasons, not to mention that it also went like a bat out of hell.

Next thing we know, Freeman Thomas has shuffled off to Chrysler and is responsible for the deeply uninpressive Chrysler Crossfire. Even worse news is that Audi then brought in its own Chris Bangle: Walter da Silva, who incidently also cut his teeth designing Italian cars. Da Silva has since set about mending something that was never broken.

Maybe the gaping grille will ultimately make Audis look as distinctive as they were once attractive, but in the meantime, this process of gradual transition is driving Audiphiles nuts as well killing the values of existing models that haven't yet been facelfted.

I quite like the new TT, it is certainly one of the better incarnations of the new grille. But the detailing seems too fussy and less well resolved than the original. In short, new is not always better and I don't think the new TT will have the same appeal long-term as the original version.

Maybe I am unfair to critiicise Walter da Silva in this way, but I'd sure like to see Freeman Thomas back at Audi. I hope you agree.

Erik
April 4th, 2006, 22:11
Found this thread while searching for something else.

I have actually met Thomas Freeman when he was driving me in a RUF Cayenne.

I agree, he made a really good job with the TT but he is now with Ford.

Benman
April 4th, 2006, 23:51
I also agree. I can see Bangle influences that are appearing here and there in the Audi line up.

Alas, this is the way it shall be...

Ben:addict:

AndyBG
April 4th, 2006, 23:57
Thing that counts is ''selling figures'', and with this new Audi look, figures are going up, so...

...i am afraid this story is ended, as mutch as we like it to be oposite.

tailpipe
April 5th, 2006, 11:31
Andy BG - I violently disagree with you. Audi's sales are up in spite of its design not because of it. Engineering, build quality, model variety, sportiness and handling are all part of the Audi equation. At the moment the weakest part of the package is the design. The point to make, however, is that Audi's design is less weak than that of BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Walter de Silva is clearly an accomplished designer, but the I think that copying BMW influences erodes Audi's distinctiveness.

There is a mistaken belief that BMW's new design language has now been accepted by customers. I am not sure it has. Look at some of the BMW boards and you'll see a growing despair at the look of the new 3-Series coupe. it actually tones down Bangles's most offensive features and has ended up a mess. As someone who knows and observes the Auto Industry closely, I think BMW abandonment of its traditional design signatures is slowly but surely eroding long-term value. While BMW sales appear to be holding-up in the short-term, largely thanks to its traditional engineering strengths, the competition has not only caught up but is being more innovative, e.g. diesel technology, direct petrol injection, hybrid power plants, future hydrogen power systems, turbocharging, exotic automatic gearboxes, telematics, electronic systems and driver aids, safety and ride comfort. Audi in particular has plundered BMW's engineering department. Mercedes-Benz cars are coming down in price. It may be premature to say that BMW is on the verge of disaster, although I reckon that sales of the 3-Series could fall of a cliff, but BMW cannot afford to make a single mistake with its strategy. Styling is a key factor that can protect the brand while its engineering catches-up again.

Similarly, Audi cannot afford to make the same mistake either. Thanks to Freeman Thomas, both the TT and the A2 pioneered a new language for Audi that the Industry applauded: understated elegance with a strong and stunning German Bauhaus influence. For the first time Audi's became imediately recognisable as being Audis. They were cool, desirable and timeless. The styling also made up for the dynamic flaws of both cars.

The emerging design language of Audis is a bit of a mess. For the most part, the new grille sits uneasily on the front. It's too large and too square. The shoulder line crease that runs along the length of the car is heavy-handed. Gone is Freeman Thomas's subtlety of form.

I don't think that Audi can falter under Martin Winterkorn - the most brilliant auto industry boss - IMHO. (Well done Dr. W - you're a genius!) but as Audi targeted BMW, so Lexus is targeting Audi.

Lexus cars are still dynamically inferior to most German marques, and they get stupid things wrong - look at the trunk on the new Lexus IS - but boy do they look good now. The new IS, GS, and RX are all extremely attractive cars - and just look at the sales growth. The new LS also looks great. Audi can't afford to play into the hands of near competitors.

Leadfoot
April 5th, 2006, 16:42
With regards to Lexus, I think Lexus upto now haven't care for european sales that much. America is the market that is most important to them and their design of their cars have shown this, but not now. The new IS is the best looking cars in this sector. I still feel that Lexus are this targeting Merc eg. the soft suspension.

It their new Hybrid ones which are the most interesting and with correct battery placement could give a perfect weight balance for improved handling. A recent report on the GS Hybrid produce performance the equal of the new S6 v10 but with about double the mileage.

I think we all will have to watch this brand.

AndyBG
April 5th, 2006, 16:46
Tailpipe, i think that design of older Audis, specialy A8 D2 ('94-'02) is timeles, and far as i am consered Audi shoudn't ever leave that ''stealty'', ''rock solid'', ''i am gone kick your a**'' look, but main reason for Audis turn in design is laying in US sales.

Todays Audis are more ''eyecatchers'', and that is what majority of people are want, TO BE SEEN, i am not pleased with that, that is main reason why i am not BMW sympathiser. Stealth, clean look of Audis was one of main reasons why i got to like it, but what you can do, i am not expecting Audi to return to that look.

Wehn you come to Bangle, i don't have comment for that guy, but after all that ''yelling'' and ''screaming'' about new design, BMW lovers didn't turn their backs on him (Bangle), they are still buying BMW.

Lexus for me isn't option IF IT IS LAST CAR ON EARTH, but i have to say that new GS is looking nice, outside, only, enterier is rubish.

All best,

Andy
:bye:

Benman
April 5th, 2006, 17:15
Originally posted by tailpipe
Andy BG - I violently disagree with you.

So what are you, V?

"Remember, remember, the 5th of November..." :trash:

Ben:addict:

tailpipe
April 5th, 2006, 17:58
Leadfoot, I agree with your analysis wholeheartedly. Lexus is certainly coming on strong and the new IS is a deeply impressive car.

As far as Hybrid is concerned, I'm not convinced by it yet. There's even a letter in the latest edition of Car Maagzine suggesting that the RX400h is dangerous to drive in certain situations, because it puts all of its power through the front wheels, causing loss of traction and torque steer - not good for a top heavy SUV that's meant to be good in all conditions.

Whatever I think you get the best and worst of both worlds with hybrid. I'd rather buy a frugal diesel. More to the point, what I'm really waiting for is a hydrogen powered car with 500 bhp equivalent. (I guess i'll be waiting a long time.)

in the meantime, I shall console myself with an Audi RS4 Avant







No, Benman, I am not V for Vendetta!

Benman
April 5th, 2006, 18:36
Originally posted by tailpipe



No, Benman, I am not V for Vendetta!

I don't know... sounded pretty violent back there...:trash: :D

Ben:addict:

eazy
April 5th, 2006, 22:22
Come on guys.
You don't really think a lexus is a pretty car right?
They can't even make their own styling. The IS-front looks like a BMW 5series. And the back of the GS looks like an Audi A6.
Thanks to god that germany is nearly lexus-free.

just my 2 cents


greetings

eazy

tailpipe
April 6th, 2006, 01:31
Eazy,

The weight of public opinion is against you on this. Forget what the Industry says, sales are up too. But truth be told, GS and new LS are only okay, rather than spectacular. IS is however stunning. Old generation, especially SC430, is pig ugly. Lexus isn't there yet, but they sure want to be and man do they they have deep pockets.

:asian: