Audi's S and RS model strategy

[tailpipe]

Friends,

I don't know about you, but I've got two questions I would very much like Audi to answer:

1. The existing RS4 and RS6 models are stonking machines. Absolutely no doubt about this, based on RS6 forum feedback. Yet the gap between the end of production of the existing models and the arrival of replacement ones seems ridiculously long. Even stranger, RS models appear very late in the model lifecycle reducing their ultimate shelf life and sales volumes. It means that no sooner has an RS model been launched than it is eclipsed by a more powerful competitor model using a newer chassis, e.g Short gap between current RS6's arrival and launch of new BMW E90 M5.

2. Why does Audi need two top-end performance models in its ranges anyway? BMW does very well indeed by just having a single M3 and M5. When the RS model arrives it immediately makes the S model redundant. It means that Audi is not only competing with BMW and Mercedes but also with itself. This seems dumb. The arrival of new RS models probably wouldn't matter if Audi's S models were considered to be on more of an equal footing to BMW M models. But, sorry, guys, the S4 and S6 were never as focused driving machines as the M3 and M5. Audi shouldn't need two bites at the cherry to get it right.

But the RS4 and RS6 are genuine alternatives to the M3 and M5. The problem is that you cannot buy a brand new RS4 or RS6 today. If you could, you probably wouldn't want to, because each of current RS4 and RS6 models are based on designs that are between 10 and 12 years old. My point is that how on earth can Audi be a credible alternative to BMW when its performance line-up is state-of-the-ark instead of high tech?

Fundamentally, I believe that Audi only needs one top-end performance car in its model ranges not two. I don't care what they call it, but if RS models have become the de facto M competitors rather than S models, they should use this handle. Just give me an estate car with 4-wheel drive that goes as hard as an M3 or M5 and bring it out more quickly in the model lifecycle, not just about as production is due to cease.

:doh:

[Erik]

I'm not sure it is correct, but some people think:

M3 vs. :s4addict:

M3 CSL vs. :rs4addict

is the way to see it.

But I agree. I really hope quattro GmbH gets the funding (they are not that big) to release the RS4 and the S6 and the RS6 sooner.

http://www.rs6.com/smilies/Audi-worship.gif

[Benman]

Originally posted by Erik

But I agree. I really hope quattro GmbH gets the funding (they are not that big) to release the RS4 and the S6 and the RS6 sooner.

http://www.rs6.com/smilies/Audi-worship.gif
I don't think quattro GmbH will be making the next S6. That would be Audi's job.

[QuattroFun]

I have not yet driven the new M5, but it puts the pricing of the RS6/RS6 Plus into a very embarrasing light. The European pricing (i.e. premium to old M5 and even the new one!) is hilarious whereas the performance on different gauges is pretty similar between the two contenders. I love quattro, but the RS:s seem to need more PS to offset the excess weight, which is Audi's problem. Perhaps magazines such as Sport Auto should introduce Euro/PS per tonne as one benchmark for value rather than the plain Euro/PS?

I am really looking forward to the new RS4. Let us just hope that the new RS4 delivers better value for money that the RS6 did...it would be disappointing it the price of the sedan would come in at less 15% below the new M5. And yes, it should really be much, much better than my beloved S4 if is supposed to cost 30-40% more and also far exceed the price of the C55 AMG.

[Benman]

Originally posted by QuattroFun
I have not yet driven the new M5, but it puts the pricing of the RS6/RS6 Plus into a very embarrasing light.

I am really looking forward to the new RS4. Let us just hope that the new RS4 delivers better value for money that the RS6 did...it would be disappointing it the price of the sedan would come in at less 15% below the new M5. And yes, it should really be much, much better than my beloved S4 if is supposed to cost 30-40% more and also far exceed the price of the C55 AMG.
Not sure what pricing your going by but all the "quotes" are indicating the new M5 to be north of $90k US. In Car & EVO their guesses put it @ 65K-70K!!! (OVER $100K US!!).

My best guess is that the new RS 4 will be priced somewhere @ the $70K-$75K. I find it very hard to believe that Audi as well as quattro will price the new RS 4 LESS than the old one:confused:

Ben:addict:

[QuattroFun]

I was, of course, referring to European (i.e. German-based) relative pricing as the previous thread also explictly states. German and many other European prices - both present and past - on the various mentioned models are readily available including the new M5. At inception, the old RS4 Avant with a 6-speed manual was in Germany (with 16% VAT) priced at roughly 130.000 dem = 66.500 euros.

[Benman]

Originally posted by QuattroFun
At inception, the old RS4 Avant with a 6-speed manual was in Germany (with 16% VAT) priced at roughly 130.000 dem = 66.500 euros.
This is my point @ the RS 4. If the old one was 66.500 (@ $70K) then the new one should cost more. Maybe $75K. Alot of folks in the US will :w:

[QuattroFun]

I hope you are right also when it comes to Europe.

I must say I have no idea if and how you tax cars over there. And at least the RS6 had a very different pricing policy in the US than in Europe as has previously been discussed also on this forum.

Now, 66.5K eur is actually 81K usd at the current exchange rate but if you do not tax cars at all, then it could be 69-70K usd if the tax free price and equipment levels would be the same as here.

In Germany the new M5 is 86.2K eur vs. 101K eur for the RS6 Plus with almost similar equipment levels and the C55 AMG is 62K eur in sedan trim. In Europe, the old RS4 was priced with a 20-30% premium to the old S4 and the RS6 (not plus, which is some 10% more than standard) was priced at 30-40% premium to the comparable S6 slightly depending on the country.

[Benman]

I am also unaware of how cars are taxed as they come here. Also was unaware that the exchange rate was as high as 1 euro=$1.22 dollars:bigeyes:

All the same, that would mean the M5 would sell here for $105K!! Yes, I realize that this will not be the cars price stateside (and DON'T ask me why these German Sedans sell for cheaper here than in their home country:confused: ) but I still put it @ $90K+! Comparing that price to what the RS 6 sold for seems reasonable. I realize that the RS 6+ is more money still but comparisons on that are not as fair seeing as how there was less than 1,000 worldwide sold (if that) making it a highly rare sight. The new M5 in contrast will more than likely have a worldwide production run of at least 7,000-10,000 making the numbers again more comparable the the RS 6 (standard). Does the price of the RS 6 match the performance when compared to similar vehicle (E55, M5)? That is debateable.

Yes I agree with you that it seems that Audi is pricing their competitive vehicle higher than the competition's but let's wait and see what the REAL price is of both the RS 4 and the M5 to make a final call. And don't forget quattro!
Ben:addict:

[M3 owner]

EXCELLENT post Tailpipe!
I own a E46 M3 but am a HUGE Audi fan.
The way things stand right now,the S models r good cars,but I can't help but think that they r a ½ hearted version of a RS model.
If Audi insists on having 2 top end models,maybe the S models should b what the RS models currently r & the RS models should b Audi's version of the CSL.The RS models should b just a lightweight,stipped out supercar.
The RS models should even b rear wheel drive (Something Audi is already trialing)
ATM,the S models don't offer a great deal of value 4 money,hence my reason 4 buying the M3 & not the S4.
Also,Audi should have released a 2 door A4 & S4 a loooooooooong time ago.
Audi has allot of potential,they just need 2 reshuffle their cards.
Audi r aware that it's taking 2 much time 2 release their S & RS models,I remember reading a article that they wanted 2 give Cosworth the flick & have companies like ABT create their RS models,maybe that wouldn't b such a bad idea.
I also think it was a really bad idea 2 ditch the turbos on the S models.Audi's r very heavy cars & that weight puts the S4 & S6 at a disadvantage against cars like the M3 & M5.W/ a turbo u can raise hp very easily & w/ very little $.I would definitely buy a stock S4 Turbo over a M3 because I know the tuning potential of a turbo.
Come on Audi !!!!!

[5000S old skool]

Dammit, why does everything always have to be about beating BMW? So what if Audi wants two performance lines? I totally agree with it. It opens up to more consumers. Can't afford an RS4? Then you can get an S4, or the other way around, want more then what the S4 already has to offer? Then get an RS4. It makes sense. And I dont think that S and RS models should be two door, because the whole point is to be a sleeper.

and what people see it as is...

S4 vs. M3

RS4 vs. M3 CSL

RS6 vs. M5