Upcoming Transmission News

[Qisha]

The VW Company does have a new "Sword" in the Battle to be King:

the upcoming Bugatti Veyron will get a Double Clutch Transmission with 7 (!) Gears. This is the first ever build 7 Gear Version. The Transmission is able to take the 1.250NM (!) of Torque and not less than 1001BHP.

To compare:

the new SMG III 7 Gear by BMW is able to take up to 680NM of Torque.

I assume that the upcoming top models of the VW Company, Audi included, will get this Transmission.

If so, there is plenty of room for the Quattro GmbH to play with.

:D

[audirs6sport]

NICE!!! Thanks for sharing. I hope it will never end up in a point where I need to start thinking about alternative options like BMW or MB :)

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Qisha
The VW Company does have a new "Sword" in the Battle to be King:

the upcoming Bugatti Veyron will get a Double Clutch Transmission with 7 (!) Gears. This is the first ever build 7 Gear Version. The Transmission is able to take the 1.250NM (!) of Torque and not less than 1001BHP.

To compare:

the new SMG III 7 Gear by BMW is able to take up to 680NM of Torque.

I assume that the upcoming top models of the VW Company, Audi included, will get this Transmission.

If so, there is plenty of room for the Quattro GmbH to play with.

:D

Take great care not to confuse marketing and spin with reality.

The Veyron is years, yes YEARS, overdue. One of the reasons is that it splits gearboxes. Porsche was planning to use the same gearbox, when did you last hear them talk about the DSG gearbox?

So please don't write Audi's marketing material for them, unless you are getting paid for it, if you are, then say so!

Remember, quattro GmbH is a marketing company.

R+C

[Bauer]

Originally posted by Qisha
The VW Company does have a new "Sword" in the Battle to be King:

the upcoming Bugatti Veyron will get a Double Clutch Transmission with 7 (!) Gears. This is the first ever build 7 Gear Version. The Transmission is able to take the 1.250NM (!) of Torque and not less than 1001BHP.

To compare:

the new SMG III 7 Gear by BMW is able to take up to 680NM of Torque.

I assume that the upcoming top models of the VW Company, Audi included, will get this Transmission.

If so, there is plenty of room for the Quattro GmbH to play with.

:D

It would be nice if that were the case.....but I have my doubts as they have taken so long with the Veryon and run in to a HUGE amount of problems with cooling, high speed stability and Reliability. I would love to see the car make it to market, if done right.

[steve]

I've read the Veyron will even get 1100bhp:) :deal:

[Qisha]

Dear Nord,

i am not allowed to give all the information to the public, but believe me, nothing i am "expecting" is taken out of Marketing or Customers Dreams.
I won´t write what everyone would like to see, just facts.

Backround:

The Dual-Clutch Transmission is expected to be in 16% of all new build Cars in EUROPE until 2010 (Ricardo Analyse) AND
in 54% of all new build Cars in EUROPE until 2020 (DRI-WEFA / A.D Little Studie).

For the North American Sector its different, only 5% until 2010 and not more than 1% until 2020.

I don´t have to tell you the facts about it ?!?

What do you think why VW and AUDI put no more money in the research on regular Automatic Transmissions ?!?

Porsche: take a look at the annualreport, -> research. You will find what you say "they were not talking about".

Maybe you should have joined the International IIR Symposium "Innovative Vehicle Transmission". Talk to R. Pelders about his Study "Dual Clutch Transmissions, Lessons Learned."

I respect all People in this Forum, so will you please not disrespect me ! If you are in need to write Feedback to my threads with this kind of "language" in the Future, do me a favour and send me a PM !


PS: this is one kind of idea, "pay someone to spread Marketing News in a Company friendly Forum". I take this personal !
Actually you are really braking my interest in sharing this Forum.

:eye:

[RS4Ever]

wow .. cool info.

thanks

1% for US.. we might all have to move to europe.. heh.

[Nordschleife]

Qisha

The gearbox doesn't handle large amounts of torque. Huge efforts are required to make it reliable, both Borg Warner and Ricardo are doing what they can, but it isn't there yet.

Now you can read company reports or talk to marketing types at quattro GmbH, or marketing types who think they are engineers, but you have to ask, where is the Veyron, where is the 997 with a DSG, why is there no DSG on the S4 in place of the tiptronic box? Quoting futurology reports is not factual.

Yes, the boxes are being tested in more powerful cars, but how many kilometers have they managed without servicing and repairing?

If you repeat marketing statements by manufacturers, expect people to 'call you' on it, unless you can qualify what you are saying. I'm very sorry but company reports are just another form of marketing stement.

So like it or lump it, thats the way it is. I'd love to see the DSG on more powerful cars, but has it been announced yet? Can we expect to buy one any time soon?

R+C

[Qisha]

Nord,

this is the point were i have to pass, i could proof but i am not allowed to do so. Wait until the first Quarter of 2005 and you will find my answer. :D

[TaTaPiRaTa]

Originally posted by Qisha


For the North American Sector its different, only 5% until 2010 and not more than 1% until 2020.



Are you sure these % are right ? Not vice versa?

BTW What is Dual-Clutch Transmission exactly?

thx
:rs6kiss:

[Qisha]

Regarding to the named Studies, yes these numbers are correct.

The Dual Clutch Transmission:

You can find two different Systems:

1. Dual Wet Clutch System

mostly used in in high-torque applications

2. Dual Dry Clutch System

found in lower torque vehicles

Dual Clutch Tranmissions permit shifting with no torque interruption, which consequently leads to excellent driving comfort together with a reduction in fuel consumption and emissions. Another plus is the minimum installation space combined with high performance density which leads to reduction in fuel consumption and outstanding driving dynamics.

[TaTaPiRaTa]

Originally posted by Qisha
Regarding to the named Studies, yes these numbers are correct.

The Dual Clutch Transmission:

You can find two different Systems:

1. Dual Wet Clutch System

mostly used in in high-torque applications

2. Dual Dry Clutch System

found in lower torque vehicles

Dual Clutch Tranmissions permit shifting with no torque interruption, which consequently leads to excellent driving comfort together with a reduction in fuel consumption and emissions. Another plus is the minimum installation space combined with high performance density which leads to reduction in fuel consumption and outstanding driving dynamics.

Thanks.
Your answer looked like PR text, so either you are very talented or .......

When I put "Dual Clutch Transmission" into Google I got this as first hit:

http://www.zfsachs.com/owx_7_30901_2_6_0_00000000000000.html

a copy & paste solution :vhmmm: :nono:

Can anybody decribe that in plain english? How it is possible it do shift without torque interruption?
Does it work like two cones with a belt so it is like gearless gearbox?

thx.

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Qisha
Nord,

this is the point were i have to pass, i could proof but i am not allowed to do so. Wait until the first Quarter of 2005 and you will find my answer. :D

Qisha

They have been promising that Geneva announcement for 2 years.

R+C

[J0X]

Yes, how does that work? :vhmmm:

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by TaTaPiRaTa

Can anybody decribe that in plain english? How it is possible it do shift without torque interruption?
Does it work like two cones with a belt so it is like gearless gearbox?

thx.

The two cones type gearbox is known as CVT, as seen on the old DAF cars from Holland.


The DSG has two wet clutches (like wet and dry sandpaper). One clutch controls the ‘odd’ gears plus reverse, while the other operates the ‘even’ gears. Essentially it is two gearboxes in one.

With this new clutch management system, there is no break in power delivery when you change gear. This is achieved by an intelligent hydraulic and electronic (mechatronic) gearbox control system, the two clutches and the two input and output shafts in each half of the gearbox.

This combination enables the next-higher gear ratio to remain engaged but on standby until it is actually selected. In other words, if the car is being driven in third gear, fourth is selected but not yet activated. As soon as the ideal shift point is reached, the clutch on the third-gear side opens, the other clutch closes and fourth gear engages under accurate electronic supervision.

As the opening and closing actions of the two clutches overlaps, a smooth gearshift results and the entire shift process is completed in less than 0.04 seconds. In addition to its fully automatic shift mode, DSG can act like a tiptronic allowing manual gear selection.

I hope this explains how it works
R+C

[Qisha]

You will find the CVT Transmission called "Multitronic" by Audi.

TaTaPiRaTa,

everyone can google for himself, i would say. My way of writing is based on my Job, probably. I am allways trying to help, if needed. In which way so ever... :D

[J0X]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
I hope this explains how it works
R+C

Brilliant explanation! Thank you, Nordschleife! :thumb:

[audirs6sport]

Qisha, by anychance, do you know if the next rs6 will possibly have a 6.0L v10 biturbo rather than 5.0L v10 biturbo?? I am really sick of audi making tiny displacements for the RS models.

[TaTaPiRaTa]

Originally posted by J0X
Brilliant explanation! Thank you, Nordschleife! :thumb:

I second to that !!!

Nordschleife is a king of explanation :D

Thanks to Qisha anyway :hihi:

:addict:

[A418TQTip]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
The two cones type gearbox is known as CVT, as seen on the old DAF cars from Holland.


The DSG has two wet clutches (like wet and dry sandpaper). One clutch controls the ‘odd’ gears plus reverse, while the other operates the ‘even’ gears. Essentially it is two gearboxes in one.

With this new clutch management system, there is no break in power delivery when you change gear. This is achieved by an intelligent hydraulic and electronic (mechatronic) gearbox control system, the two clutches and the two input and output shafts in each half of the gearbox.

This combination enables the next-higher gear ratio to remain engaged but on standby until it is actually selected. In other words, if the car is being driven in third gear, fourth is selected but not yet activated. As soon as the ideal shift point is reached, the clutch on the third-gear side opens, the other clutch closes and fourth gear engages under accurate electronic supervision.

As the opening and closing actions of the two clutches overlaps, a smooth gearshift results and the entire shift process is completed in less than 0.04 seconds. In addition to its fully automatic shift mode, DSG can act like a tiptronic allowing manual gear selection.

I hope this explains how it works
R+C

Cool... I kind of figured that out watching a TopGear video I downloaded from FlixVault...

However, what if the driver downshifts? I mean, 4th is on standby... What if the driver decides to downshift instead? :vhmmm: I guess that would take a bit longer to be accomplished, right?

[Qisha]

...by anychance, do you know if the next rs6 will possibly have a 6.0L v10 biturbo rather than 5.0L v10 biturbo??

For the upcoming RS6 Model no considerations lead into this direction. Talking about capacity, on first line of the "wish list" a high power V12 is considered best for the first class.

Take a look at the Bentley Continental GT, V12 Bi-Turbo, 552BHP, 650NM

[audirs6sport]

The reason why I am wondering is because the next E65 AMG's rumor has been spread around stating that it will be a v12 biturbo making 1000 TORQUE!! There's also another rumor that's just going to be a v8 s/c 6.3L making 475 HP.

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by A418TQTip
However, what if the driver downshifts? I mean, 4th is on standby... What if the driver decides to downshift instead? :vhmmm: I guess that would take a bit longer to be accomplished, right?

This is a worst case scenario, there is a delay as the system shuffles around to get the desired but unanticipated gear, its still a faster shift than a human one.

By linking the ECU and the navigation system to the gear preselection system, future systems may be able to work out that the driver is accelerating hard in 4th gear but will next want 3rd rather than 5th as there is a corner coming up. I can do the prediction very easily on a race car, its an order of magnitude harder on a street car.

R+C

[Nordschleife]

The problem with the W12 engine is that it has the sporting character of a prohibitionist in a speakeasy!
Audi has tried this engine in the A8, its fast but boring. The turbo charged version is very fast but still boring and heavy, given Audi's brief to be a 'sporting' manufacturer, it is likely that other engines will be preferred. The V10, which is presently in the Gallardo will be available in other guises in other VAG automobiles, this engine has much more sporting characteristics and the ability to be increased in capacity as well as specific output, even before turbo charging is considered.
Anybody who seriously wishes to get some hints about future Audi engine directions would do well to attend the Technical Conferences coming up in Garching and Frankfurt over the next two months, Baretsky will be speaking at length at both conferences.

R+C

[audirs6sport]

Damn. I live in FUGGIN USA!! :(

[A418TQTip]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
This is a worst case scenario, there is a delay as the system shuffles around to get the desired but unanticipated gear, its still a faster shift than a human one.

By linking the ECU and the navigation system to the gear preselection system, future systems may be able to work out that the driver is accelerating hard in 4th gear but will next want 3rd rather than 5th as there is a corner coming up. I can do the prediction very easily on a race car, its an order of magnitude harder on a street car.

R+C

Yup, linking it to ECU and NAV (which will have to be standard with DSG) makes sense.

Cool. :thumb: