Manual Transmission Options

[nene]

I know this topic has been discussed before, and I have no plans (aka wet dreams) on making the actual change, as I do too much city driving to get to enjoy a 6-speed box!!!

Nonetheless, I have been on vacation too much this past Summer, and did some reading on cars. I came across some reading on this issue, and I figured I'd share with you all.

Option 1: <B>RS2 manual transmission</B>
I read about an S4 in New Hampshire that has a full Dahlbak Tuning setup. This includes an RS2 transmission with custom stuff to handle the car's alledgedly insane 530HP & 500ft/lb of torque. Not sure if the transmission can handle more, but the setup is built by Dahlback or someone they use to put the whole transmission setup together. I did not contact TJM motorsports on this issue, since they are the only ones that can do the whole work, once they get it from the Dahlbak folks in Europe. But by what I read, it did seem promising.

Option 2: <B>RS4 manual transmission</B>
The only reason I mention this is because this is what the Champion RS6 cars are running. This is what I read on a magazine quite recently. We all know that the Champion's RS6 is running something like 525HP & 500ft/lb of torque if I remember correctly, and they are apparently running an RS4 manual transmission. It's possible they upgraded the clutch plate and flywheel at the very least, but don't remember reading it.

I have seen some B5 S4 owners that are running close enough horsepower and torque to what we do stock. They upgraded the transmission to RS4, and it works wonderfully. So, even if we were to stay at stock, the transmission should handle the power. However, not so sure how much custom work would be required, but I assume quite a bit. Not just mechanical of course.

I did not call any of the tuners mentioned above, because I have no interest in this. But if folks are interested, it's possible they can share some info with any of you.

<a href="http://www.tjmmotorsport.com/">TJM Motorsports</a>

[Hy Octane]

Interesting.. In the new Car & Driver there is an article about the Champion RS6's.. it says they are using the s4 gearbox and it surprised them by handling the hp/torque with no problems..There is no mention of upgrades or anything changed out.. I wonder... :mech:

[Nordschleife]

Its been said before - its very expensive

For road use you have to completely reprogram the ECU.

It has now been discovered that you also have to completely reprogram the ESP and ABS.

How much do you want to spend?

Race cars don't have these problems.

[Qisha]

BB Automotive offered me a manual Gearbox, only available with the EVO RS Stage Tuning. If you are willing to pay 98.000 Euro you get:

level 5

about 474 kW / 645 h.p. at 6.300 r.p.m.
engine torque about 760 nm at 2.800 r.p.m.
Vmax limited at 320km/h

complete precessing of the engine
incl. working on the cylinder heads
insertion of two B&B special turbochargers
with modified exhaust fume bends
optimized air ventilation circuit
B&B sports exhaust system starting f rom catalyst
B&B race sports catalysts 100CPSI
B&B pre-exhaust pipes for reduced exhaust counter-pressure
processing ot the air induction system and
optimation of the ventilation circuit
modification of ignition- and injection system
modification of electronics of engine- and transmission control-device
adaption of the electronic code fields
complete processing of the transmission
manual 6 Speed Gearbox
strenghtening of the Gearbox for higher engine torque
lifting of engine torque control and Vmay limit
engine adaption


The Manual Gearbox is not available without the rest of the list. Since the whole EVO RS Stage is at 98.000 Euro the Gearbox is not cheap anyway.

If you like to stay with the 5 speed Tiptronic they also got a strenghtend Version available, that is part of the EVO R Stage.

They did a EVO RS for a lucky guy in Dubai. Would love to see and feel this rocket... :rs6kiss:

[icefire069]

Well from my understanding the Champion RS6 are using a rigged transmission from the A8/S8 which was only offered in Europe I believe. Though the S4 transmission would probably fit on that 4.2L.......

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by icefire069
Well from my understanding the Champion RS6 are using a rigged transmission from the A8/S8 which was only offered in Europe I believe. Though the S4 transmission would probably fit on that 4.2L.......

The Champion RS6s use the RS4 gearbox, which is basically the same gearbox as is used in the A8.
However, the gearbox does not mate up to the RS6 engine block, quite a lot of work has to be done with helicoils and welding the oil pan and making a new engine mount and making sure that the change in position of the starter can be accomodated.....

Whilst this is fiddly, its nothing compared to reprogramming the ECU and the ABS/ESP systems.

Even if you do all this, you have to ask if this is reliable for street driving, race cars don't have to last long between services! So, the only people I know who have done this for the street changed the engine block so they would have a reliable engine and transmission system. For a customer car, they have to get the ECU to work in the way it does when it leaves the factory. Again, in a race car you can ignore all the clever stuff which stops the engine from self destruction.

Very very few tuners are in a position to reprogram the ABS and ESP systems, this is much more expensive than mechanical changes.

There is another tuner who offers a manual gearbox conversion, at a very high price, this is what one might call 'virtual tuning'.

If you want a manual gearbox on an RS6, you bought the wrong car in the first place. It makes a great tow car, put a Radical in a trailer behind you, the kids in the back and 'your best girl besides you' and set off for some on-track fun. This is really good 'cos the fan cllub can go shopping and get the stuff for the barbie whilst you are impressing your other track day buddies.

R+C

[McP]

There is a new car (C8 Spyder T) from a Dutch company Spyker that uses a 525 bhp RS6 engine with a sequential 6-speed manual Getrag gearbox.
http://www.spykercars.com/
Maybe this setup will fit in an RS6?

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by McP
There is a new car (C8 Spyder T) from a Dutch company Spyker that uses a 525 bhp RS6 engine with a sequential 6-speed manual Getrag gearbox.
http://www.spykercars.com/
Maybe this setup will fit in an RS6?

The gearbox is not the problem, the problem resolves around 2 issues:

1. The RS6 engine block is different from the blocks the manual gearboxes are used with, and does not mate up without modifications.

2. There is major reprogramming required to modify the ECU and the ABS/ESP systems. This is horrendously expensive, much more so for road cars than race cars which don't have to worry about blowing up engines to the same extent.

Are you sure the Spyker uses the RS6 engine block? The S6 engine block is a direct bolt up to manual boxes. Incidentally, the Getrag box fitted by Spyker is a normal box, not a sequential one.

There are few cars better suited to cruising California than one of the beautiful and ideosyncratic Spyker models, but they are not a great performance car. One of these would be lovely to take to Monterey and Pebble Beach, or cruise Portofino. But I'm not keen for a serious drive.

R+C

[SpinEcho]

Hmmm... I think Nordschleife has a point here. I thought the Spyker used an S6 engine (naturally aspirated).

[McP]

As always Nordschleife is right; normal manualbox is standard.
However a sequential six-speed gearbox is available as an option.

Yes I’m quite sure it’s the RS6 engine (and not another 4.2L), with ABS and ASR:
http://www.carbc.com/news/highres/c8tspyder-eng.jpg
This is the T version: the 'normal' C8 Spyder uses an engine from the S8.

More info on the C8 Spyder T:
http://www.carbc.com/Car-News-540.html

[Nordschleife]

McP
Spyker's own information is that the engine block is that of the S8, which is different to that used in the RS6, but is the same as the S6.
Incidentally, I don't see any turbochargers in the photograph of the engine.

R+C

[McP]

Now that you mentioned it I don’t see any turbos either, :vhmmm: .

I’ve noticed that not all info on spyker’s own website is correct, for example it states about the T (Turbo): it has 525 bhp (331 kW) and is normally aspirated and also states it uses a twin turbo engine..
525 bhp = 386 kW and 331kW = 450 bhp (metric).

So I sent Spyker an e-mail to clear thing up about the use of an RS6 engine or not.

[McP]

After emailing back and forth with Spyker, I’m now sure the C8 Spyder T uses a: RS6 engine with a manual 6-spd gearbox, Rear wheel drive with ABS and ASR.

However this model has not gone into production, this will start in the coming months.
The sequential gearbox does not exist, it’ part of a prototype version (unsure if it will be produced in future).
Spyker currently has an order book of 70 cars and currently can only build 50 a year (will be increased to 100 steadily).

p.s. the info on their website will be updated

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by McP
After emailing back and forth with Spyker, I’m now sure the C8 Spyder T uses a: RS6 engine with a manual 6-spd gearbox, Rear wheel drive with ABS and ASR.
However this model has not gone into production, this will start in the coming months.


When they come to check out the casting numbers, i think they will find that the RS6 heads, plumbing, etc., including turbos and manifolds, have been mounted on an S6 engineblock. This is a much neater solution. Otherwise you have two options:

modify the RS6 oil pan, engine mounts and starter mechanism, with a lot of helicoils and some compromises which may not be good in a road car (this is what Champion do)

or

have a new gearbox housing manufactured to mate up with the RS6 block

As the Spyker model in question has not gone into production, and Spyker is notoriously bad at listening , the company may very well not have got its head around the practical problems of mating RS4 gearbox with RS6 engine block. So RS6 listers probably know more than Spyker's technical people.

I hope Spyker continues to prosper, if they sort out the handling, I can think of few nicer cars to take to cruise Big Sur, or Portofino or the Grand Corniche. For the US market, the automatic option is probably an advantage.

R+C

[nene]

Thanks for all the tech knowledge Nords! It certainly puts an end to anyone's quest into modifying their tranny on the RS6. Well, it might not put an end to it, but if anyone were to choose to go with it, it sounds like a never ending money pit!

Maybe the best thing to go with is to get a better tranny to handle more power, since the engine does seem like it can get further tweaked, assuming better cooling setup is even available.

[grabber]

Hey guys, we have a project like that, the itself is working RS6 engine with a 6-speed RS4 manual, but we have some ECU problems, but engine is screaming for the automatic transmission, and it disable to the "service program". If anybody has a solution for that, we would be happy to buy the ECU software that can handle manual transmission. Cheers. PM me or email: nor.kovacs[atfuckspammer]gmail[dot]com

[TozoM8]

I think someone is working on the ECU program, but it will be big $$$. It is way easier just to leave the TCU in place and get the wiring harness and solenoids out of an auto trans and just plug it back in. I converted two cars and both passed inspection without problems. I assume you are in Hungary so you need to pass the inspection without CEL. You can keep the car in P and it will run just fine.

http://audipages.com/tozo/tn_IMG_2038.JPG

[RS6...]

Gents,

Very intersting and well informed thread!

Regarding the TCU programming I have access to a tuner who is willing to supply genuine RS6 ECUS with a modified version of the OEM map but to suit a manual car.

This will provide you a plug n play solution without the need to retain the TCU inplace and also featuring re-calibrated ESP etc values/setting which were attained from the C5 S6.

The cost of this solution will cost ~2500EURO.

The program is also encrypted so it will only run on the car which it was tuned for by way of VIN locking, once this is done you are then able to take the car to any tuner who can read the standard map and make changes as needed and then re-flash without problems.

I myself am part way through this conversion and will be using this option as I have seen four examples of his system in working cars one of which is a very hot B7 RS4 running the RS6 engine and twin 2880R garrett turbos!

Cheers!

[V8weight]

Gents,

Very intersting and well informed thread!

Regarding the TCU programming I have access to a tuner who is willing to supply genuine RS6 ECUS with a modified version of the OEM map but to suit a manual car.

This will provide you a plug n play solution without the need to retain the TCU inplace and also featuring re-calibrated ESP etc values/setting which were attained from the C5 S6.

The cost of this solution will cost ~2500EURO.

The program is also encrypted so it will only run on the car which it was tuned for by way of VIN locking, once this is done you are then able to take the car to any tuner who can read the standard map and make changes as needed and then re-flash without problems.

I myself am part way through this conversion and will be using this option as I have seen four examples of his system in working cars one of which is a very hot B7 RS4 running the RS6 engine and twin 2880R garrett turbos!

Cheers!
Wow! You have 11 posts, reside in Europe and want to sell me a 2500 Euro TCU? Where do I sign up?!

[ben916]

Wow! You have 11 posts, reside in Europe and want to sell me a 2500 Euro TCU? Where do I sign up?!

I agree! Or is it REALLY Australia???

My name isn't Sam Sausagehead and just take your word for it.
So far, you haven't posted anything regarding photos, logs, data files, anything... to make someone/anyone trust you or what you are "offering"...

Otherwise offer your "wares" to Unit20 or MRC or MTM or EPL (catch a drift???) or another reputable company that can stand behind the product offered.
Oh, and the VIN lock makes RS6 owners, this one especially, shoot you the bird...

[MaxRS6]

^ I do luv my Ben!

[RS6...]

Wow! You have 11 posts, reside in Europe and want to sell me a 2500 Euro TCU? Where do I sign up?!

Where in that did you read that I am selling you the solution?

Anyone seriously interested please PM and I can pass on the tuners contact details.