ESP Test at Hatzenbach/ Nurburgring

[7:53 RS6]

ESP Test!!
A rainy day at Nurburgring whit no brake pads left , no tiers left(r-tiers) we put on my bad conti to go powersliding at Hatzenbach(Nurburgring).

I asked Erik and my Brother to stand redy whit cam rec at Hatzenbach.

(Try to power sliding at request at green hell is shurley very, very!!! exating espesaly when peopel are standing redy whit camras!)

There is always a risk that you will go of, and trust me that is the last thing you whish to do at Green Hell.

Anyway I did it whit OUT ESP in wet. The ESP system Did NOT kick back in as I said in erlier threds.

Hope ERIK has time to put out the film soon.
I enjoed it hope you do as well.

Anyway i think :thumb:
PS: just becourse sliding on track/street dont make you atomatically a slow driver if you can controle when to slide or not slid DS:

[Erik]

The ideal line in Hatzenbach...quattro line! :D

http://www.rs6.com/pics/Various/NS2004/Ringen-20040289.jpg

http://www.rs6.com/pics/Various/NS2004/Ringen-20040291.jpg

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by Erik
The ideal line in Hatzenbach...quattro line!


Cool pics Erik, but sure the video will show more drama when sliding the 2 bends!

[Klint]

Love that powersliding picture!

How did you get the rear end to come out? :confused:

Was it lift off the power then turn in then lots of power?

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by Klint
Love that powersliding picture!

How did you get the rear end to come out? :confused:

Was it lift off the power then turn in then lots of power?

No, that works owerall best and most easy in rear weal driven cars whit power. My feel is that whit the rs6 you have to build up some speed to let it drift becuse of good grip.
If gravel or snow/grass/ice just turn and trothel to drift.

We have some nice picures of relly trowing up dirt and grass on a parking space near Flugplatz at Nurburgring!

Of course you have to put out ESP to drift(rearly you can drift whit ESP on)

Have fun:)

[Klint]

Originally posted by 8:29 RS6
No, that works owerall best and most easy in rear weal driven cars whit power. My feel is that whit the rs6 you have to build up some speed to let it drift becuse of good grip.
If gravel or snow/grass/ice just turn and trothel to drift.

We have some nice picures of relly trowing up dirt and grass on a parking space near Flugplatz at Nurburgring!

Of course you have to put out ESP to drift(rearly you can drift whit ESP on)

Have fun:)

Sounds madder than I thought! :D

Can't wait to see those picture from the carpak at Flugplatz at the Nurburgring.... :thumb:

[7:53 RS6]

Driving RS6 Avant whit ESP and R-tiers goes just fine at Nurburgring, the ESP rearly interferc(grip in) becource of god grip from R-t.

Even when driving my RS6 and contis(street tiers) its pretty much ok, but then again ESP grips in much more often. Especally when pushing it a bit harder. some can live whit that, I cant.

Sabine anyway drives the ring taxi whit ESP off.

Of course rear weal driven cars like M5 and M3 the ESP kicks in realy to fast.
RS6 whit w4 dosent kick in ESP that fast when comaring, this is my feeling anyway.
I really like the GT3, heard it dont come whit ESP?.

About brakes in the back I agre whit Nordshhclife, it dosent break much in the rear wit stock. I dident change once and still got 50% left when at home. :race:

[Nordschleife]

The reason you have not experienced the ESP cutting in, when you have switched it off, is that you are not generating sufficiently high G-forces or slip angles to cause it to come back on.
This would explain why you and your friends were able to spin in the snow, and why you did not experience it cutting back in on the track.
If you have a properly balanced car, on the correct line, then you will experierience much higher forces than if you just turn in without setting the car up for the corner. You are running out of grip under circumstances that Audi expects you to be able to control. To save this from happening in future, and to allow you to have more fun on the track, I suggest you enroll in some Audi Driving Experience courses. By the time you have worked up to their Grand Prix courses, you will be able to drive your car around the track much more quickly and have a lot more fun.

R+C

[Erik]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
*The reason you have not experienced the ESP cutting in, when you have switched it off, is that you are not generating sufficiently high G-forces or slip angles to cause it to come back on. *To save this from happening in future, and to allow you to have more fun on the track.

:deal: Just for the record, we drove like this to make nice photos.
Any talks of the 'ideal line' is pure irony.

But I have a question, would the ESP break in after braking, more or less regardless of g-forces or angles?
I have a series of photos (more than above) that I may post when I get the time. I think it does, but it's difficult to judge from photos and not driving the car.

I hear Audi is not tracking the S4 any longer in the GP course since the brakes don't last. Correct?

[Nordschleife]

Erik

The reason for explaining about the car losing control at low G-Forces and slip angles is to explain the apparent conflict between those who say the ESP does automatically switch on, and those who say it does not. There is no conflict, its just that cars are spinning at different force levels.

As far as the S4 is concerned, I would opine that it has been withdrawn from the Grand Prix courses for several reasons, thwe brake issue being only one of the less serious reasons.

I found the S4 to be really boring on the track, until there was a torrential rain storm.

R+C

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
The reason you have not experienced the ESP cutting in, when you have switched it off, is that you are not generating sufficiently high G-forces or slip angles to cause it to come back on.
This would explain why you and your friends were able to spin in the snow, and why you did not experience it cutting back in on the track.
If you have a properly balanced car, on the correct line, then you will experierience much higher forces than if you just turn in without setting the car up for the corner. You are running out of grip under circumstances that Audi expects you to be able to control. To save this from happening in future, and to allow you to have more fun on the track, I suggest you enroll in some Audi Driving Experience courses. By the time you have worked up to their Grand Prix courses, you will be able to drive your car around the track much more quickly and have a lot more fun.

R+C
Norsdchlife.......you shure can talk(wright). But can you do the walk??
The Hatzenbach manover is pure fun, just for video and picks.
To do it at request at Nurburgring you need to being abel to control a car.(film coming) I would love seeing you doing the same thing whit out ESP(slide 2 bends).
Surley you would ask your self before trying..... "Hope Im not spinning out of track now and totaly damage my car and Erik get it all on film". At this point you would have backed out!.

Because you are not sure if you really controlles the car!...well why is this.

The answer is sipel, you drive whit ESP on all the time!
You control the car ESP off/ The car controls you ESP on.

PS: when are we seing you doing under 8.29 DS


:thumb:

[Nordschleife]

I have tried to put it politely, now I will put it in terms you might understand -

"Nails in butter, mate"

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
I have tried to put it politely, now I will put it in terms you might understand -

"Nails in butter, mate"
Dont have a clu what you mean. Right in other words, so I will be sure not to missunderstand!

[AlanN]

Originally posted by 8:29 RS6
Norsdchlife.......you shure can talk(wright). But can you do the walk??

The Hatzenbach manover is pure fun, just for video and picks.
To do it at request at Nurburgring you need to being abel to control a car.(film coming) I would love seeing you doing the same thing whit out ESP(slide 2 bends).
Surley you would ask your self before trying..... "Hope Im not spinning out of track now and totaly damage my car and Erik get it all on film". At this point you would have backed out!.

Because you are not sure if you really controlles the car!...well why is this.

The answer is sipel, you drive whit ESP on all the time!

You control the car ESP off/ The car controls you ESP on.

PS: when are we seing you doing under 8.29 DS

:thumb:

I would very much doubt that Nordschleife perambulates in anything but in a very respectable manner :D

ESP on all the time?
I severely doubt this and in fact know different.

As for the 8:29 comment, Hmmmm.
I would not be surprised if not already :D

The point is, that with ESP off, the electronics *WILL* allow you to slide the car (as you describe it) as you see here.
Get the car to swap ends at very high speed with ESP off and believe me the ESP will re-activate.
I've f*cking done it and IT HAPPENS BELIEVE ME.
But swap ends at Hatzenbach and you're looking at a very hefty bill no?
Highly likely not to be debating if (or not) the ESP had re-activated I think.

Nordschleife is right when he says that you should do some Audi driving training, you will *really* learn how these cars work :D

[7:53 RS6]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AlanN
[B]I would very much doubt that Nordschleife perambulates in anything but in a very respectable manner :D

ESP on all the time?
I severely doubt this and in fact know different.

As for the 8:29 comment, Hmmmm.
I would not be surprised if not already :D

The point is, that with ESP off, the electronics *WILL* allow you to slide the car (as you describe it) as you see here.
Get the car to swap ends at very high speed with ESP off and believe me the ESP will re-activate.
I've f*cking done it and IT HAPPENS BELIEVE ME.
But swap ends at Hatzenbach and you're looking at a very hefty bill no?
Highly likely not to be debating if (or not) the ESP had re-activated I think.

"Get the car to swap ends at very hig speed wit ESP of and belive me the ESP will re-activate"(then you are chrashing and not controling!! and remember esp is not to 1oo% saving you)
If feeling confident whit the car and your driving skills it should not be a problem for you to do the hatzenbach thing Alan. Surley when you feel confident enogh by practicing you woudent be thinking about a bill. Whit all respect to the forum I wont swear her..
What about being polit or not, You will never hear me be the first(remember first) to commenting peopels who i dont know about ther driving skills. If i ever would be the first to commenting peopel who i dont know about ther experience/less experience etc I would have realy hige tinking of my self woudent I.(i dont and I still learning ) Nordsclife and your self are realy quick to do this,(nordsclife has commeted more than me) thats why it would be intresting to see the experts on the forum and how they handeling their rs6 on Nurburgring or sliding thru 2 bends in Hatzenbach.(Alan you self said you are experienced spinning cars) Just so I can pick up some of your moves!
Thats also why I Asked Nordsclife to come to the ring(I said I love to chase you round the ring in my stock rs6) Couse when driving behind an EXPERT!! you really pick up things!!

:thumb:

[AlanN]

Calm down now :D

I have never claimed to be an expert at anything, my comment about spinning cars was ment to be a joke, i.e. yes I've spun many cars, mostly when I didn't mean to :eye: and also mostly because I was "trying too hard" :eek:

However I *have* completed 3 Audi driving courses now relating to the topics discussed here and stand by my comments :doh:

I have NEVER driven the 'Ring so cannot and will not comment on specifics relating to it.

I do not know Nordschleife personally, however I do know of him (for some years now) through many close friends and I *KNOW* that he will not coment on any subject that he cannot add knowledge/value or experience to.

I also know he is no slouch behind the wheel of any vehicle and has driven the 'Ring "once or twice", in an array of vehicles.

I'm not here for a p*ssing contest (nor will you find is Nordschleife I think), far from it, just to share views.

8:29 at the 'Ring is, as far as I can tell, entirely respectable and I can only congratulate you on the acheivement!

Hopefully I will get the chance to drive there this year but meantime I will concentrate on my times at the circuits I do know :applause:
You are of course welcome to come and join me at any of these events :incar:

Peace eh? :thumb:

[chewy496]

Nice pictures there... Can't wait for the video.

If Nordschleife has some pictures/movies to provide i'd also love to see them. Does anybody have any links?

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by AlanN
Calm down now :D

I have never claimed to be an expert at anything, my comment about spinning cars was ment to be a joke, i.e. yes I've spun many cars, mostly when I didn't mean to :eye: and also mostly because I was "trying too hard" :eek:

However I *have* completed 3 Audi driving courses now relating to the topics discussed here and stand by my comments :doh:

I have NEVER driven the 'Ring so cannot and will not comment on specifics relating to it.

I do not know Nordschleife personally, however I do know of him (for some years now) through many close friends and I *KNOW* that he will not coment on any subject that he cannot add knowledge/value or experience to.

I also know he is no slouch behind the wheel of any vehicle and
has driven the 'Ring "once or twice", in an array of vehicles.

I'm not here for a p*ssing contest (nor will you find is Nordschleife I think), far from it, just to share views.

8:29 at the 'Ring is, as far as I can tell, entirely respectable and I can only congratulate you on the acheivement!

Hopefully I will get the chance to drive there this year but meantime I will concentrate on my times at the circuits I do know :applause:
You are of course welcome to come and join me at any of these events :incar:

Peace eh? :thumb:

Peace of cource :thumb:
PS: Communication is hard! Hell... me and my wife dont always understand echother(ha,ha). From begining i think we all missunderstud some bits, any way i know what you meen. DS

[AlanN]

Who does understand women :doh:

[TheBrit]

Originally posted by AlanN
[B]The point is, that with ESP off, the electronics *WILL* allow you to slide the car (as you describe it) as you see here.
Get the car to swap ends at very high speed with ESP off and believe me the ESP will re-activate.
I've f*cking done it and IT HAPPENS BELIEVE ME.
Yes, the ESP 'deactivation' function does mean you have a lot more leeway to slide the car, but I agree that it's not off entirely. What about the rumours that on the RS 6 ESP off really means off? I don't entirely believe them. I did once, but now having played around a bit more on wet backroads, I'm not so sure.

I did the UK Audi Driving Experience recently, and I was told that the RS 6's ESP would be reactived when the brakes were used. On the lane change session I did spin on the first attempt (well it was wet!) and although most people stalled it when they spun, I didn't (got it to neutral quickly enough I guess) and the ESP had turned itself back on if I remember rightly (I recall having to turn it off before my next attempt).

Interestingly enough, for the 'hot laps' in the RS 6 with the instructors, the ESP and ABS lights were both lit. When we asked our instructor about it, he said "Yes, the ESP is off" and when we pressed him about the ABS light he just repeated that ESP would still be activated by using the brakes. I don't think he was being entirely truthful - there seemed to be no intervention at all of any kind despite getting the car quite sideways round corners...

[AlanN]

Hi Chris,
I did the day too, the reason it's not re-activating on the hot laps is the situation isn't severe enough, the system sees the slides as "controlled" if you like...with the systems off it takes some form of pretty violent manouver to re-activate them, such as the spin during the lane-change :dance:

[TheBrit]

Alan,

I guess a "violent manouver" is based on the system's perceived rate of yaw (for want of a better description) - a rate of turning that's considered too rapid for even controlled sliding is interpreted as a critical situation, I suppose?

What do you make of the ABS light being lit as well? Do you think they disabled something else via the diags port (VAG tool or similar)? Perhaps they just got under there and unplugged the ABS sensors (I don't really think so)!

As an aside, if you press the ESP button to turn ESP off and keep it held in long enough, the ESP light goes back off but I don't know if ESP is on or off at that point (haven't found the bravery to test it in my own car!). Releasing and pressing the button then seems to have no effect on the ESP staus light until next time the ignition is powered off and on again. I've no idea what it actually does (I guess if it locks ESP on it might be handy for dealers letting cars out for demos?), but it's repeatable behaviour across RS 6s, so it's a 'design feature' of some kind!

Chris.

[Aronis]

All Right...

Audi we know you read these posts.

What is the Answer, we are waiting...

Does turning off ESP keep it off or does it come back when you hit the brakes...

AUDI, give us the answer....

There I did it I asked Audi, now stop chewing on each other's a**es....

Mike

Love this board......

[Erik]

Hitting the brakes will get the ESP back on. It works the same with Porsches. (unless GT3 or GT2 :hihi: ).

However, if the car is too unbalanced once you press the brakes the ESP cannot save you, only help you. There is not enough time for the system to react (you shut it off, remember).

[AlanN]

Originally posted by TheBrit
Alan,


As an aside, if you press the ESP button to turn ESP off and keep it held in long enough, the ESP light goes back off but I don't know if ESP is on or off at that point (haven't found the bravery to test it in my own car!). Releasing and pressing the button then seems to have no effect on the ESP staus light until next time the ignition is powered off and on again. I've no idea what it actually does (I guess if it locks ESP on it might be handy for dealers letting cars out for demos?), but it's repeatable behaviour across RS 6s, so it's a 'design feature' of some kind!

Chris.

Well one thing's for sure, there's no point in asking a dealer that question because they certaily won't have a clue :doh:

[Aronis]

now thats funny....

[AlanN]

Originally posted by Aronis
now thats funny....

Funny but true eh :cry:

My car needs an ECU replacement, which (after a 3-week wait because they have to be "specially built") has now arrived.

However, they cannot now fit it because their computer system has to have a live link to Audi GMBH and they don't have this.
They also can't give me a date when they will be able to.

This is the same dealer that booked my car in (at my request) to perform a 4-wheel-geometry check (after I hit a really bad pothole).
When I arrived with my car they informed me that they couldn't in fact do this because the wheels on my car were too big (std 19") for their machine.

I have yet to find a dealership that can do this :vgrumpy:

A MAJOR dealership, can you believe this?

I love the car but Audi's dealers and Customer Services in the UK S*CK A55 IMHO.

I'll sort it out myself, away from Audi dealers of course, because I care about my car but I really shouldn't have to IMHO.

[TheBrit]

Alan,

Do you mind spilling the beans on which dealer you're using?

I don't think any dealer is perfect, they all have their little faults. My dealer only recently got the machine to do 19" and bigger wheels, they did used to subcontract to a local tyre shop though so as far as the 'end-user' experience went, they could supply and fit 19" tyres.

However, the first time 'they' (i.e. the subcontract shop) changed a tyre on my business partner's Avant, they didn't put on Extra Load tyres, or replace the TPM sensor inside the rim. Even 15 months and several sets of tyres later, I had two new tyres after an irrepairable puncture and they managed to invoice me for Extra load tyres, but fit regular CSC2 rubber...

The good news is that with their new found ability to fit 19" tyres themselves, they have been able to cure the slight vibration that's been a problem since the factory tyres first came off. I don't know if they're running a Hunter (or the VAG-branded equivalent) or if I just got lucky with rotation and balance weight placement, but I intend to ask some questions next time I'm down there. They did also do me an alignment (well, they invoiced me for it!) a couple of months ago, so they may have the kit.

Lincoln may be a bit far-flung for you though!

[Nordschleife]

Guys
Do be careful with the tyres. Once during high speed testing I had a little vibration, I had the tyres rebalanced and checked, one of them was almost in shreds internally, yet we could not tell from the outside, if that had let go at 200mph (I did say high speed testing), i would have had to wear my Napoleon trousers!

Robin

[AlanN]

Like you Robin I am fanatical about my tyres.

Only contact with the road and all that!

[TheBrit]

Sounds worrying - in my experience, the C5 platform is pretty sensitive to road force balance being out by any amount, I think this is why I have had vibration issues with even new tyres - the roads round my area are bad and I hit a lot of lumps/bumps at all speeds and under all kinds of cornering conditions, and I wouldn't be surprised to find the wheels out of round slightly by now.

Unfortunately, the usual dealer response to vibration complaints seems to be to re-balance the wheels on the basis that the balance is thrown out slightly by even a few miles of driving after they've been balanced. In the past with my A6 I got the discs replaced, then the hubs, and in the time it took to get that far (with the obligatory repeated balancing and alignments in between) I'd had the car so many miles it was time to sell it on and buy another, so I haven't ever yet got to the bottom of my mystery vibration issues that apparently most customers don't seem to have.

The problem with persistent vibration is that you get used to it and don't really think of it in terms of a serious problem, so yes your right Robin, I should be a bit more concerned about it if it returns. For now, I've got fingers crossed that I've seen the last of it.