Brake upgrade: Should I spend $ or $$$...or $0?

[JAXRS6]

I'm considering a brake upgrade in advance of a driving school at Sebring before June & trying to decide which way to go. You should know I don't plan to track the car a lot; Sebring probably will be the end of it, since I don't expect the RS6 to be as good in tight turns as my 2000 S4 & don't want to beat it up too much. Odo reads 17,300 & Sebring has some rough spots, especially expansion joints in the concrete that used to serve as an airport runway (or so I've heard).

Alternatives I'm considering:

1. Upgrade present system with new pads, stainless steel lines and brake fluid with a higher boiling point. Cost: about $1K.

2. Replace with new brakes, including discs etc. (maybe MovIt if available in US; I don't know if it is.) Cost: from what I've seen here I'm guessing around $3-3.5K.

:mech:

3. Of course, I could just go to Sebring stock & see what happens. But I'd hate to have the car need a pad change mid-day because that job doesn't appear to be something easily done at a track. Also might risk rotor damage, ya think?

Your thoughts & suggestions, please!

[Bauer]

I am in the same spot. I have another event at Sears Point but in Nov. ....so I got more time. I also probably will not be doing many more events in the RS6....probably get a S4 and strip it down for future events.

I was thinking of just a set of rotors and pads through STaSIS once they have compleated their work on the RS6 set up. Also new fluid(I think a good idea anyway...still need to check with my factory rep about warranty) and new break lines.

My feeling is get rotors and pads for track use and swap out to the stock set up afterwards. That way your not consatantly battling AoA on break costs and you get a better set up at the track. Sure you spent the $1000 on a set up you may only use 2 or 3 more times but AoA will still be on the hook for the 4yr 50k service with the stock set up and I believe in the long run will save you money.

But if you plan on running the car hard much more often then I would look at replacing the whole set up.

just my two sense:D :D

[Erik]

We're going to Nürburgring for a few days 7-12:th of April
in a stock RS6. (with R-tires I guess)

I think we'd be able to tell you by then... :hahahehe:

Can you wait for our feedback? :confused:

[Nordschleife]

At a recent RS Challenge organised by quattro GmbH, the factory RS6s had to drop out because their brakes were completely destroyed.

Driving a car round the Nürburgring with bad brakes is a most unpleasant experience. One lap at a time if you know the circuit well will be ok, but if you don't know it then you will have brake fade towards the end of each lap.

I have a friend who hires either Boxsters or Honda S2000s for track days - better than driving a heavy car with dodgy brakes. He does take along a set of good race brake pads, this is much more economical in the short run!

R+C

[JAXRS6]

Originally posted by Erik
We're going to Nürburgring for a few days 7-12:th of April
in a stock RS6. (with R-tires I guess) I think we'd be able to tell you by then... :hahahehe: Can you wait for our feedback? :confused:

My first possible Sebring date is Apr 17; I'm on a waiting list & would have to pass tech inspection the day before. Last possible date is May 29. So, your info before those dates will be helpful; I just hope others who can comment sooner will do so.:)

[gregoryindiana]

Either the Movits, which seem uniformly praised by all who have them, if uprated brakes as a long term thing make sense for you, or, if you will be doing a few track days and want Audi to be in the hook for the maintenance till the warranty's up, you could get a set of high performance pads to put on for track use only.

Problem seems to be that the stock RS6 brakes, though more than adequate for US road use with occasional heavy braking with sufficient time to cool between, have a heat dissipation problem owing to the manner in which they are designed. The rotor cannot reject heat fast enough to either the air, or, by virtue of the way the floating pins hold the rotor, it cannot reject heat to the hub, which doesn't seem like much fun for the wheel bearings anyway.

Mr. Nordschleife, has stated in the past that uprated brakes are the only way to go for max performance RS6. For now, I don't use the car hard enough with sustained repeated braking to justify 4 wheel uprated brakes.

I have never seen on this forum any discussion of trying to get more cooling air to the brakes. Maybe that's because the huge front calipers effectively insulate the rotor from any chance of even ducted air, if you went to that extreme.

[Nordschleife]

On the subject of improving the supply of air to the brakes, I have done some work.

A little background.

Basically there are two ways of getting more cold/cooler air to the rotors and callipers.

1. attach a shaped plastic strip to a lower suspension arm so that it 'scoops' fresh air towards the centre of the hat and the calliper. porsche do this with their CT3 Cup cars.

2. duct air, in flexible pipes from the front or beneath the car to the calliper and hat. This is what is done on many race cars, including the Champion Racing RS6s.

Now there are problems associated with both these approaches.

The plastic wind catchers are too easily damaged as they project too far below the car; fine on the race track, well most of them, I wouldn't make any promises about Sebring for example, but no good for the street where the roads are bumpy and its just a matter of how soon you will weaar away the scoops.

Ducting the air to where it is required also has several problems. Firstly, on a road car its quite difficult to finsd a place to duct the air from - probably the best place is a NACA duct from thefront side of the under tray, then you are presented with the problem of reliably attaching the hose to somewhere on the hub carrier reliably; this is not easy. There is a great tendencty for them to catch on something.
Further research suggests that to get enough air to the rotors, a hose diameter of close to 4 inches is required. This is substantial hosing and finding a pickup point is very hard, even if you can stop the hose from being torn. Look closely at the Champion RS6s, they remove the front corner turn indicators and have a fabricated metal insert of adequate cross-sectional area to which the hose may be attached.

The RS6 rotors have another problem. Like most high performance rotors, they are internally vented. The principle behind this is that cold air will enter the rotors at their inner circumference and be spun out through the vanes to exit at the outer circumference, accelerated by centrifugal force and the aerodynamic profiles of the vanes themselves. this is most important and very much more effective than just pointing an air hose at the external surface of the rotor itself, remember both sides of the rotor do work.
Now, if you put the RS6 on a hoist and take the wheel off, you will see that even if you direct air at the centre of the rotors, there is no way it can be forced into the space between the two working surfaces of the rotor, and remember it has to be an everyday solution, not a tracks only answer.

If anybody is doing work on this, quite a lot of air passes through the intercoolers. This spent air is not particularly hot, about 10 Celcius above ambient and much much colder than the brakes.

I have done quite a bit of work on this, with several different organisations. I expect Audi to come through with a better design at some stage.

R+C

[gregoryindiana]

The RS6 is not the first Audi that was very underbraked for the available performance in track use in the US versions.

This may be typical of all heavy sedans, in fact, but in the "Olden Days" the US spec Audi 5000 (200 in Europe) was not known for brake problems at track events, as uprated pads alone addressed the casual weekend event needs; usually Pagid was the answer. Some guys had slotted or drilled rotors as well.

The Ur Quattros were either light enough that the brakes weren't a big problem with uprated pads and rotors, or they had been built up into track only machines, with near full race brake setups and ducting of air as Nordschleife mentions to match their uprated performance. Lots of those guys had access to Sport Quattro componentry for their cars.

The "Ur S4" as it is now called in the US, the early 90's 4 door sedan with the 225 hp 20 valve turbo 5 cyl, was a demon on brakes. In the early days, guys had external fans on the wheels, tried uprated pads, etc, etc. with little improvement that I could see. Eventually, uprated brakes from the Euro plus models that had the 4.2 V8 made their way here. These brake rotors were larger diameter, had larger pads with 4 piston calipers, which combined with Pagid spec pads were a nice solution. They also were available with Audi part numbers, since they were stock on Euro cars.

That was the route I took, and I was able to stay free of brake fade at Mid-Ohio, Road America, and Brainerd, among others. Not courses known for being hard on brakes, though, with plenty of opportunities to cool the rotors on long straights.

[Aronis]

I have a question!

What is the advantage of the free floating front rotor?

It seems to have more disadvantages due to the lack of heat dissipation by contact with the hub.

Thus I thought that just changing the front break setup to the movit setup would have a significant effect on brake longevity! This would allow us to avoid the more difficult rear change over with the extra caliper! and more money to boot!

Sounds like Audi should bite the bullet and offer brake replacement with Mov'it or similar for easy money for those who have paid $85,000 for a car with such a Achilles Heal.

Mike

[Benman]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
On the subject of improving the supply of air to the brakes, I have done some work.

I have done quite a bit of work on this, with several different organisations. I expect Audi to come through with a better design at some stage.

R+C
It's sounds like you have. Thanks for the info. I agree that it would be a challenge to get the proper ducting to fit and the scoops would probably get damaged with street use. Question. On the scoop aproach, how far did the scoops Porsche use hang below the vehicle?
Ben:addict:

[eph94]

I have been going through this debate in my head too. I will be taking my RS6 for the first time to a track event at Lime Rock Park on March 30th. I have done nothing to my brakes other than bleeding them as required by the pre-event tech inspection. I have another track day a month later at New Hampshire International Speedway on April 29th, so if I kill the brakes at Lime Rock, I'm going to have to take SOME course of action. It is a little bit of a downer knowing that I'm in all likelihood going to have to drop a good wad of cash down on a full brake upgrade if I want to continue taking the RS6 to the track. As the saying goes, you don't take your car to the track to save money. That's for sure.

[JAXRS6]

Originally posted by JJV-MA
I have been going through this debate in my head too. I will be taking my RS6 for the first time to a track event at Lime Rock Park on March 30th.

Good luck -- please post your brake results here!

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Aronis
I have a question!

What is the advantage of the free floating front rotor?

It seems to have more disadvantages due to the lack of heat dissipation by contact with the hub.

Thus I thought that just changing the front break setup to the movit setup would have a significant effect on brake longevity! This would allow us to avoid the more difficult rear change over with the extra caliper! and more money to boot!

Sounds like Audi should bite the bullet and offer brake replacement with Mov'it or similar for easy money for those who have paid $85,000 for a car with such a Achilles Heal.

Mike

Mike

Free floating rotors

The advantage of mounting the rotors on isolating pins is that it stops the heat getting into the hub. Why is this a good thing?Well, for example, some BMW M3s have had front wheel bearing problems which have caused the wheels to run out of true. Research showed that the problem lay in the bearings heating up to such an extent that the grease in the bearing became too thin, allowing too much movement within the bearing. Stopping the heat going into the wheel bearings fixed this problem.
Now good ideas for the track are not always so good for the street. Race teams don't mind swapping rotors after each race, about the cheapest thing they have. When we drive a road car swapping rotors every 4000 km is not an option.
Good track implementations incorporate an efficient air delivery system so that the air can get into the space between the two rotor surfaces at the inner circumference. In the Audi implementation, they neglected to do this.

Audi's Rear Brake Implementation

This really stinks. The root of the problem is the bean counter friendly design which allows them to connect the callipers to both the foot brake system and to the hand brake system. Now these two systems have completely different requirements. The upshot is that the rear brake does very little work. Essentially, all Audis have unbalanced braking systems, the compromises required to cope with this mean that in a number of cases, most noticably the UrS4, there is not a great deal to be gained by upgrading the rear brakes.

However, and this is the good news, modern Audis do benefit from efficient rear brakes.

The modern braking, ABS/EBD and ESP systems positively welcome the additional retardation capacity of the rear axle, and make use of it. So with a good installation absolute stopping distances will decrease. On an RS6 with 19 inch wheels and sticky summer tyres, I do not trigger the ABS system in the dry carrying out stops which are in excess of 12 m/s^2. This is really serious stopping, rarely experienced on the street. Looking at the rear rims, you can see the brake dust here, showing that for once, they are doing their share of the work.

There is another reason why upgrading the rear brakes is a good idea if you like driving on the track or have a favorite mountain pass you like to run early in the morning. The modern Quattro Audis have something called an Electronic Lock, which opereates at speeds up to 50 mph (less on the FWD cars), this and the ESP can cause extreme overheating of the rear brake system. Without modification, you cannot turn off the ESP system completely, even if you have turned it off, it will reactivate in 'extreme' situations. So your rear brakes are doing a great deal of work, the greater their heat capacity, the more likey it is that they will continue to operate as the designers intended the system (note the use of system rather than brakes) to perform.


There is another reason to upgrade the rear brakes - the stock ones will look so puny once you have done the fronts.
HTH
R+C

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Benman
Question. On the scoop aproach, how far did the scoops Porsche use hang below the vehicle?
Ben:addict:

Ben
Porsche use a shaped plastic 'scoop' which they attach to the front side of the lower rear suspension arm. It is about 4 inches high and 11 - 12 inches long. It projects about an inch below the suspension arm itself.
At the Nordschleife of the Nürburgring, which has a somewhat challenging surface in places, porsche drives scrape away these scoops over just a few laps. So, I wouldn't expect this approach to last long if you go in for Canyon running.

R+C

[JP4]

Originally posted by Nordschleife


The modern Quattro Audis have something called an Electronic Lock, which opereates.....
Without modification, you cannot turn off the ESP system completely, even if you have turned it off, it will reactivate in 'extreme' situations.


Are you including the RS6 in this statement? As I recall Audi advertises that the ESP system in the RS6 is the first ESP system that is COMPLETELY disabled when it is turned off by the driver. Is this not true in "extreme" situations as you have stated?

JP4 :vhmmm:

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by JP4
Are you including the RS6 in this statement? As I recall Audi advertises that the ESP system in the RS6 is the first ESP system that is COMPLETELY disabled when it is turned off by the driver. Is this not true in "extreme" situations as you have stated?

JP4 :vhmmm:


It would be interesting to check that advertising statement, and to see 'how carefully its worded'.

You can always take the car to the track and try taking a 100 mph corner at 130 mph and see if the US models have ESP that reactivates. I would expect them to cut in. I would say that the car is designed to let you achieve quite extreme attitudes before any ESP intervention. This kind of excess speed, however should mean you either plough off forwards into the gravel trap or you spin out backwards, into the same gravel trap - remember whilst you are doing this to check the ESP light, does it start flashing away?

If you learn to drive the way the German Audi Experience instructors demonstrate, you will find that a perfect line, even at racing pace does not cause the ESP to cut in. ESP cuts in when the sensors recognise that the car is going in a direction other than intended. Its more fun without ESP, because you can take more extreme lines, but its not faster!

If you find that ESP interferes too much when you take a corner in say 3rd gear, I suggest you do 2 things:

1. 'lob' the car into the corner. That is to say if its a right hand turn, smoothly initiate a turn to the left and then smoothly and fairly quickly (not jerky, please) turn the car right towards the apex. This will leave the car feeling quite balanced and much less inclined to understeer. Done well you can even use this technique to induce oversteer at will.

2. Instead of taking the corner in 3rd gear, take it in 4th, ESP is less intrusive in the higher gears.

As I'm not in the US, I can't comment on the ESP system on your cars. Given the litigious nature of society on your side of the pond, I'd be surprised if it didn't cut in under extreme conditions.

R+C

[JP4]

Nordschleife,

hmmmm....I will certainly look into this further. However...what I CAN tell you from personal experience is that the system DOES appear to be completely disabled when switched off. I had a religious experience on the first half lap of a session on cold track tires twice in the same day. The first time I had the ESP on and the system took over braking and throttle control to the point I perceived that I had very little control over the car. I was a bit aggravated by this "intrusion" so I turned the ESP off at the beginning of each subsequent session. The second time on the same corner on the first half lap with ESP off the cold tires let go again and this time the rear end came around quicker than you can say "oh sh$t" :harass: . There was not enough room to take corrective action as it was a quick left - right transition so I slid to a stop straight off into the grass. No damage fortunately except to my ego! If the ESP was going to turn itself back on it certainly would have done so in this instance IMO.

I greatly appreciate your comments. I'm still in the early stages of learning how to handle the car on the track so these type of comments are quite helpful. :thumb:

JP4 :rs6kiss:

[7:53 RS6]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JP4
[B]Nordschleife,
However...what I CAN tell you from personal experience is that the system DOES appear to be completely disabled when switched off.

Of course the ESP is completely disabled if switched of!! Many times have i powerslided my rs6 whit ESP off. (Totaly many more slids in my 3 last rs4)
Idont think the rear comes fast at all, i dont think any 4WD comes fast when powersliding. Not like rear wheel driven cars anyway.
Driving on track whit ESP has never worked for me,(well im not any drivers instructor) it totaly slows me down in all kinds of tracks long fast or short and slow. Diffrent cars have propabley programd their ESPs to allow more or less before griping in. Run M3 E46 at Nurburgring last year and it feelt hopeless whit ESP on, it grips in realy to quick!. (for this reason M3 csl have a track mode ESP that will allow more before grip in, herd even this slows down...not tried myself yet. It felt like my RS4 ESP allowed more than the M3 ESP before griping in when driving whit it on.
Now counting days, 7april Green Hell it is, in stock RS6 :wo: :wo:

[7:53 RS6]

PS: ESP should not be trusted to 100%.

Many times the ESP dont have a chance to react if for ex. to much G forces in wet, damp contitions, oil e.t.c.


"learn by Doing"


:)

[CarbonFibre]

I stopped reading the posts but it seems that it's time to get a custom made front mount intercooler and then get cooling ducts put in the sides where the intercoolers were. This would cool your big brake kit that you don't have yet :hihi: .

[Nordschleife]

8:50 RS4

I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP will come back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations.

Experienced drivers have a separate over-ride switch fitted to fully disable it.

The conditions you describe are transient, unfortunately for you, you were not able to retain control of the car, the designers of the ESP system expect the car to be driven within a certain handling envelope. Perhaps a little training would help you to maintain control in these situations.

Drivers who favour extreme and prolonged manoeuvers on a track often fall foul of ESP when they first encounter it. If you plan every corner, and set the car up for the corner, you will find that the ESP rarely cuts in, in fact you can use the ESP like a driving instructor, if it cuts in, you were on the wrong line or were not smooth enough in your handling of the car.

It is very noticable that when you are on the track with a world class driver, there is very little wheel movement, all the inputs are smooth and quite slow, yet the car is travelling mammothly faster than those where the driver is sawing away at the wheel and the ESP is going off all the time.

I hope you can follow what I am saying here.

R+C

[Erik]

As far as I know from the A4 1.8T that I've driven on various Audi quattro Driving experiences they have a seperate switch to control the ESP and ABS. I guess the just short circuit it.

If you drive your normal Audi and switch ESP to off, ESP will be on the millisecond you push the brakes.

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
8:50 RS4

I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP willcome back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations. [

So not tru, I have my self correkted things up when driving whit out ESP(controlled powerdrifting not spun out of track)Ive been to many track events and seen pepole spinn out of track,whit s4, rs4, m3, etc this should never hapend if it was like you say.
If The case you say whit the ESP not being able to disconekt where tru i would never bought the car im sitting in period!. (As said erlier a im not an driving instuctor, Not getinging paid to drive cars. )Come on how many guys can hold the perfect line and breaking points around a track like Green Hell?.

About my practic, i will be more than happy to chace you around Nurburgring the 7 of April whit my stock rs6!!!

Theori is one thing practik an other
"learn by doing"
:incar:

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by 8:50 RS4
[

So not tru, I have my self correkted things up when driving whit out ESP(controlled powerdrifting not spun out of track)Ive been to many track events and seen pepole spinn out of track,whit s4, rs4, m3, etc this should never hapend if it was like you say.
If The case you say whit the ESP not being able to disconekt where tru i would never bought the car im sitting in period!. (As said erlier a im not an driving instuctor, Not getinging paid to drive cars. )Come on how many guys can hold the perfect line and breaking points around a track like Green Hell?.

About my practic, i will be more than happy to chace you around Nurburgring the 7 of April whit my stock rs6!!!

Theori is one thing practik an other
"learn by doing"
:incar:


Having ESP does not mean that the car will not spin, if you drive with sufficient commitment, you can spin the car with the ESP on, if you turn it off, you can, as you notice, spin the car, the fact that the spin continues does not mean that ESP does not engage, it means that the spin was beyond ESP to control.

OK, are you with me so far, well bear with me a little more - look at Eric's post above,
Question: why do you think Audi fit separate switches to switch of ESP and/or ABS?
Answer: Because the ESP will come back on, even if it is sswitched off under certain circumstances, one of which is braking , others include instability.


I do not know why you bought the car you are sitting in, as you say you are not a driving instructor, and are quite obviously not a very experienced driver - you have NOT noticed how the control and safety systems in your car work.

In order to completely switch off the ESP on the RS4 you have to have a separate switch - OK?

R+C

[JP4]

Originally posted by Nordschleife

Experienced drivers have a separate over-ride switch fitted to fully disable it.

The conditions you describe are transient, unfortunately for you, you were not able to retain control of the car, the designers of the ESP system expect the car to be driven within a certain handling envelope. Perhaps a little training would help you to maintain control in these situations.

Drivers who favour extreme and prolonged manoeuvers on a track often fall foul of ESP when they first encounter it. If you plan every corner, and set the car up for the corner, you will find that the ESP rarely cuts in, in fact you can use the ESP like a driving instructor, if it cuts in, you were on the wrong line or were not smooth enough in your handling of the car.

It is very noticable that when you are on the track with a world class driver, there is very little wheel movement, all the inputs are smooth and quite slow, yet the car is travelling mammothly faster than those where the driver is sawing away at the wheel and the ESP is going off all the time.

I hope you can follow what I am saying here.


Indeed I can follow what you are saying here and I'm in agreement with your comments. Especially those relating to the smooth slow steering inputs. And YES YES YES...I could and WILL benefit from further instruction in these situations. :deal:

JP4 :revs:

[7:53 RS6]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nordschleife
[B]Having ESP does not mean that the car will not spin, if you drive with sufficient commitment, you can spin the car with the ESP on, if you turn it off, you can, as you notice, spin the car, the fact that the spin continues does not mean that ESP does not engage, it means that the spin was beyond ESP to control.

Dont lose the thread,Mr you said erlier that=I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP will come back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations.
It has never came back when swiched off in 3 rs4 i owned, never came back on my rs6. So you meen all off this time when esp whas off in my cars over years it meens that ESP was out off control as you say.....come on its allmost the same as off or isent it?? Whit ESP on you cant powerslide the car (well some time it wont react and the car could slide but rearly) But turn it off,I right it once more TURN IT OFF and you can easy slide the car on DRY Tarmac(Guess you never done this cause you need to bild up pretty much speed to let it drift on dry tarmac(overall god grip in rs6). If you tried we would not have this discusion)You should insted try this at snow or gravel that way you nerly need no speed at all,(sems to suit you better) buy still you can throw the car in any directions you like whit full 4w drift..and its fun to. Finnaly try to Sum this up, you control the car the way you want ESP OFF. Or the car controls you ESP ON. Any way this is in my WORLD and many others . Of course we are not Proffesionals(geting paid driving cars on track,) nor are we Audi Experienced test driver as you self?
Hope to see you down att Green hell 7april, "Learn by doing"
By the way Walter Röhrl drives the new Carrera GT 10seconds faster round Nurburgring whit out ESP, i guess the GT ESP system is more advanced then ouer rs6.
:hihi:

[Nordschleife]

8:50 RS4

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


Because you apparently can't notice when the ESP has come on, it doesn't mean it hasn't come on.


Instead of bringing your car to the Ring, why not invest in some Audi Driving Courses, then you will be better able to enjoy your cars, and might notice what they are doing.

Every time you say the ESP does not come back on, you show how little experience you have.

R+C

[Erik]

Guess who? :D

http://www.rs6.com/pics/Various/RS4-Ring-1.jpg

VW Transporter chasing :harass: an english RS4. This VW has a Porsche engine installed... :hihi:
Note the brake lights are on the VW. :rotflmao:

http://www.rs6.com/pics/Various/RS4-Ring-2.jpg

[7:53 RS6]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nordschleife
[B]8:50 RS4

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


Because you apparently can't notice when the ESP has come on, it doesn't mean it hasn't come on.

Well its pretty easy to feel when its on. Thats the onley reson why I put it of in the first place. You probabley not building up your speed so its not a problem for you. If the RS4/6 ESP was programed to alow more agresiv driving before cuting in I may wont turn it of.
Nortschlife you cant run away from this one# =I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP will come back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations. Read my last post and try the Snow or gravel.

I Quote
# I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP will come back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations# No way after trying what said in my last post!!

Why do you think the csl have a track mode esp that alows more befor cuting in, think about it. Even that system interferc to much i have herd. A frind of my have just got a new one and he is coming down from Berli to the ring the 7 april damn I be lucky to try it.

[andyp]

My comments on the brakes:

- They work well at the track but experience heavy wear of front pads
- after track use Brakes squeeked at 5-0 mph, Rotors showed score marks, pads had hairline cracks between piston pressure points
- after a 2-3K miles, squeek went away and rotors even smoothed somewhat. Pagid commented on photos of pads, stating that hairline cracks are normal and not of concern
- My next track event is at the end of this month and I have changed the fluid to Motul 600 and will fit Pagid recommended track pads.

Two comments on thread above:

1. Pads are very easy to change and this can easily be accomplished trackside - I recommend a lightweight hydraulic jack, a cordless impact wrench (like the Craftsmen Professional) and a torque wrench - if anyone knows the correct torque for the lugs, please let me know. in the meantime, I'm using 90 ft/lb

2. If you are changing the brakes, an alternative to Movitt might be Alcon who supplied the Champion racing team.

Andy

[eph94]

Originally posted by andyp
after track use Brakes squeeked at 5-0 mph

Funny, for me, my brakes were squeaking at 5-0 mph BEFORE I took the car on the track and by the end of the day the 5-0 mph squeak was gone. I did get the same scoring of the rotors and my brakes actually felt gritty for a day or so afterwards. I had the dealer check them out and the techs said there was nothing wrong.

I'm getting the brake fluid changed next week at my local tuner and I'm going get their opinion on the brakes while I am there. I am considering replacing the brake lines, pads, and going to a higher-boiling point fluid. Replacing the front brakes with Mov'its is a little too costly for my blood at the moment. The recommended 370x35mm kit costs 4850 Euros. If you have 19" wheels, then you can get the 380x32mm kit for 5250 Euros. Mov'it's recommened rear brake 342x28 mm kit runs 3250 Euros. The weak dollar doesn't help at all.

For you other folk who have tracked the RS6, doesn't it feel HEAVY? I loved it on the straights, where I was able to create some space, but each turn was an epic battle. I felt like the Champion RS6 guys plugging up the field in the turns. I'm almost hoping for rain one of these track days to even things up a bit, except those speedly little WRXs and EVOs will still be lighter than me!!

[JAXRS6]

FYI I have seen my ESP light flash when I disengage it & do maneuvers bordering on extreme. I suspect the flashing (vs. light being on constantly when ESP is turned off) means that ESP sometimes works even when it is turned off. Why else would it flash?

[JAXRS6]

Originally posted by andyp
if anyone knows the correct torque for the lugs, please let me know. in the meantime, I'm using 90 ft/lb

90 is correct. I think I read it in the owner's manual when changing a flat tire to the deflated spare (US) a couple of nights ago.

BTW thanks for your 1st hand story re brakes at track. Informative & also encouraging, in that I don't feel pressured now to do major upgrade for a single track event at Sebring.:applause:

[AlanN]

Hmmm.
Squealing tryes and sideways car attitudes on a race track = SLOWER LAP TIMES >.<
There is a world of difference between a gentle drift induced by being just about on the limits of available grip and hooning a car into a corner waggling it's ar5e around (easily done by using Nordy's recommended "Finnish Flick" manouver), fine for rallying where you don't get a chance to practise the corner but not for the race track :doh:

Two week's ago I did one of Audi's courses here in the UK (the third one I've done) and the instructors, who were all guys from Audi headquarters as this was the first of a three-year run of these in the UK, were indeed using ESP to illustrate "correct" racing lines and technique.

Now I have experienced this before (on an BMW M-Power course) and IMHO it works extremely well as long as you know what is causing the systems to cut in, i.e. what you are doing wrong.
Using this technique I have managed to get very close comparitive times with ESP both on and off, ok I can always go that bit quicker with it off but if you really concentrate you would surprise yourself in as much as if you get it right with the systems on and they don't actually intervene, one can still post some VERY respectable times.
I know, I've done it.

I can also back up what has been said about ESP re-activating" itself, this IS THE CASE,
On the day in question we were driving RS6's, S4's and TTDSG's, and a part of the day was demonstrating what EXACTLY happens in very extreme situations both with systems on and off.

As has been pointed out, the systems WILL re-activate in an extreme situation but cannot normally do too much about it, other than prevent an even worse spin.
This was adequately demonstrated to me when I was coached to induce a 130+mph spin with ESP "off", and then did the same thing in the car (an RS6 Avant) with a separate, "ESP-is-off-and-will-stay-off" switch.
Whilst I managed to control the car ok the second time, I did not pull up in anything like the time as when the system kicked back in.

And I couldn't "feel" it doing anything and I think I'm failry experienced when it comes to spinning cars :D

[Nordschleife]

When are you bringing the Ultima over to the Nuerburgring?
Hopefully, I'll have my hands on a Gallardo by then

R+C

[Erik]

Originally posted by AlanN
I can also back up what has been said about ESP re-activating" itself, this IS THE CASE

That's even the case in Porsches. When you brakes the ESP goes back into action.

Also what has been said about ESP being use as a guide it correct.

I did the M3 driver's training on the GP-circuit (Nürburgring) last year and after a few laps I discovered that the ESP light was on out of many corners. I was too busy driving (basically high speed driving with 5-6 cars in a line with only a few meters in between) and the sunlight prohibited me from seeing the flashing light.
When I focused on not letting the ESP flash the car behaved much better, and my speed out of the corner increased. It would not cut the power and also the line became better so it felt like the driving improved a lot. The fact that the ESP would not set off would also improve braking performance when it is really needed - since the brakes are applied on/off all the time with ESP on and aggressive driving.

In any case it was a lot of fun! :incar:

I leave on wednesday morning in an RS6 Avant for Nordschleife, staying all weekend. Hopefully the pagids will arrive on time...
Time will tell if we're spending the time driving or waiting at Ring Racing fixing the brakes... :eye:

Everybody's welcome! :race: pm me for my mobile.

[AlanN]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
When are you bringing the Ultima over to the Nuerburgring?
Hopefully, I'll have my hands on a Gallardo by then

R+C

Do you know I have never driven the 'Ring!

My European excursions so far this year are Spa in June and the RMA "Gumball"-type-thing in (http://www.rma-limited.co.uk/overseas_powertour.php) September which takes in the Hungaroring, Brno and Most.

I am going to the WRC in Cyprus too and am lucky enough to get to go out in a recce car again this year.

I must try and fit in a visit somewhere in between...particularly if you're offering to show me the way around in a Lambo!

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by JAXRS6
FYI I have seen my ESP light flash when I disengage it & do maneuvers bordering on extreme. I suspect the flashing (vs. light being on constantly when ESP is turned off) means that ESP sometimes works even when it is turned off. Why else would it flash?

I cant say anything about the american cars. On euro cars ESP flashes when on(ESP griping in and the symbol is flashing). Light is constantly when off.
"learn by doing"

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by AlanN
Hmmm.
Squealing tryes and sideways car attitudes on a race track = SLOWER LAP TIMES >.<
There is a world of difference between a gentle drift induced by being just about on the limits of available grip and hooning a car into a corner waggling it's ar5e around (easily done by using Nordy's recommended "Finnish Flick" manouver), fine for rallying where you don't get a chance to practise the corner but not for the race track :doh:

Two week's ago I did one of Audi's courses here in the UK (the third one I've done) and the instructors, who were all guys from Audi headquarters as this was the first of a three-year run of these in the UK, were indeed using ESP to illustrate "correct" racing lines and technique.

Now I have experienced this before (on an BMW M-Power course) and IMHO it works extremely well as long as you know what is causing the systems to cut in, i.e. what you are doing wrong.
Using this technique I have managed to get very close comparitive times with ESP both on and off, ok I can always go that bit quicker with it off but if you really concentrate you would surprise yourself in as much as if you get it right with the systems on and they don't actually intervene, one can still post some VERY respectable times.
I know, I've done it.

I can also back up what has been said about ESP re-activating" itself, this IS THE CASE,
On the day in question we were driving RS6's, S4's and TTDSG's, and a part of the day was demonstrating what EXACTLY happens in very extreme situations both with systems on and off.

As has been pointed out, the systems WILL re-activate in an extreme situation but cannot normally do too much about it, other than prevent an even worse spin.
This was adequately demonstrated to me when I was coached to induce a 130+mph spin with ESP "off", and then did the same thing in the car (an RS6 Avant) with a separate, "ESP-is-off-and-will-stay-off" switch.
Whilst I managed to control the car ok the second time, I did not pull up in anything like the time as when the system kicked back in.

And I couldn't "feel" it doing anything and I think I'm failry experienced when it comes to spinning cars :D

Any body know if Auto motor sport(horst) drives the rs6(or other cars they tested) sedan on nurburgring whit or whitout ESP. They drive it full lap in 8,19min if not misstaken. I dont have a clu if ESP is on or of in thise laps tested ! Can anybody chek it?
"Learn by doing"

[JAXRS6]

I hate to be hurried in making decisions, but if I want to drive my RS6 at Sebring this may be "it." Also may have option of attending a Porsche school on May 29, however. In any case the link below explains my need to decide today re tires & brakes. I'll just add that Champion Motorsports also said Paget pads for US cars are a while off, since they just sent Paget a set of stock pads to work from. So, when I'm discussing pads in this link, they're stock.

Yes, the need for speed is expensive....

http://forums.audiworld.com/rs6/msgs/3845.phtml
:trash:

[JP4]

Originally posted by JAXRS6
I hate to be hurried in making decisions, but if I want to drive my RS6 at Sebring this may be "it." Also may have option of attending a Porsche school on May 29, however. In any case the link below explains my need to decide today re tires & brakes. I'll just add that Champion Motorsports also said Paget pads for US cars are a while off, since they just sent Paget a set of stock pads to work from. So, when I'm discussing pads in this link, they're stock.

Yes, the need for speed is expensive....

http://forums.audiworld.com/rs6/msgs/3845.phtml
:trash:

JAXRS6....hate to muddy the water a bit here but do you recall reading that the OEM pads for the RS6 (at least the US version) ARE made by Pagid specifically to Audi's specs. It was described as a race pad that has been made to work on the road. That certainly doesn't mean that they're not working on another pad for our application but just wanted to throw that in.

JP4

[JAXRS6]

Originally posted by JP4
JAXRS6....hate to muddy the water a bit here but do you recall reading that the OEM pads for the RS6 (at least the US version) ARE made by Pagid specifically to Audi's specs. It was described as a race pad that has been made to work on the road. That certainly doesn't mean that they're not working on another pad for our application but just wanted to throw that in.

JP4

Thanks for that info!:D

You didn't muddy the water at all, you just gave me an excellent question to raise with the Champion guy who said he sent stock pads to Pagid for their consideration. Now, what HE said muddys the water! Will be interesting to get his reply; I'll post here once I get it.

[jimmy94507]

Jack, others,

Here's a thread I posted about the racing pads:
http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2090
Best regards, Jim