Tech question /2JZ GTE and RB26DETT

[Martin]

Anyone know about these engines? I know that these engines can be tuned up till approx. 1000 HP on a stock bottom end.

The 2JZ GTE (from Supra) is a 3.0 ltr. powerplant and the RB26DETT (from Skyline) is a 2.6 ltr. powerplant.

Howcome you never see an european automobile with that kind of potential? Like Porsche, Audi or even Ferrari.

I have heard of the RS4 is capable of 600-700 HP but not more.

Is it because they can't or they won't build engines that strong?

I am a little confused at this point because if you take the best of enginetechnology, F1, the euromakes are superior. So, what gives???

The only euro engine I can think of with the potetial of a Supra or Skyline engine is the old 2.1 ltr. Audi/VW inline 5 cyl (like the one in the famous Dahlback Golf)

Not to mention the US engines. they need at least 7 or 8 litres of engine capacity to get within the 1000 HP realm.

Anyone in here know anything on this subject?

[Klint]

Most European performance cars tend to have naturally aspirated motors from the factory where as the Japanese performance cars you've mentioned already have a big blower bolted onto them.

I don't think it's so much "someone builds their engines stronger then the other" but they have different objectives and have gone different ways about achieving them.

Market trends, surveys etc probally depict what kind of engine is used in each of the cars, and of course opinions vary from country to country on the matter.

I don't find a small motor (< 3 litre) with a turbocharger the size of the car bolted onto the side appealing or technologically advanced.

speaking of technology: Mitsubishi have a tendancy to brag about a device called an Active Yaw Control....that's a gimmick, since you'll find the mundane 318i with DSc with a similar system mated with the ABS, ASC all combined into one.

Unforunately, I've never ever had any of my taste buds ting to the taste of any Japanese car.

[Martin]

Perhaps you're right, but building cars/engines like that gives an enormous ammount of street cred among motor freaks (wich tend to be young=possible future buyers)

Just think of Fast and Fourious (only Jap cars there) and what that have done for some brands.

If, say, Porsche could build the 996 to handle 1000 HP+ why don't they do it?

I've heard that the BMW E60 will come with a 3.0 TT inline 6 with approx. 400 HP. Perhaps this engine is build to take on the japanese?

[remedy]

How long would a 1000hp stock block Supra engine last though? No, really, I'm curious. They'd probably have to be worked on every day, no?

[Martin]

Originally posted by remedy
How long would a 1000hp stock block Supra engine last though? No, really, I'm curious. They'd probably have to be worked on every day, no?

At the Supra forums they call some of the 700-800-900 RWHP Supras for 'everyday drives'. But you're right, it's probably not the most reliable unit at these levels.

But the point is that the CAN make 700-800-900 RWHP.

What can the V6 RS4 engine produce? 500WHP? 550WHP? And if tuned to that level, you'd prolly have to check that everyday, as well....

[Klint]

Originally posted by Martin
At the Supra forums they call some of the 700-800-900 RWHP Supras for 'everyday drives'. But you're right, it's probably not the most reliable unit at these levels.

But the point is that the CAN make 700-800-900 RWHP.

What can the V6 RS4 engine produce? 500WHP? 550WHP? And if tuned to that level, you'd prolly have to check that everyday, as well....

You can make any engine produce xxxx amount of power with enough turbochargers and $$$, even the RS4 2.7T V6 could handle alot of power, if not more than the stone age Japanese engines.

As Remedy said, the key is getting a good balance between power and durability.

If aftermarket firms believe such a car is worthy of such an amount of R&D investment, both in terms of money and time then the outcome will be far greater....Keep in mind the Rs4 is a good 6-7 years younger than the Supra.

[nene]

Martin,
From your comments, you sound very young in age and experience. There is nothing wrong with that, and I'm not in any way trying to be offensive to your comments. Just an observation.

A few points to reply to your concerns:

You mentioned street cred. Well, that's really bull and you know it. Real racing/motor cred is not won on the streets. You win it on the track with F1 and other classes of car racing.

What young buyers buy is either what they can afford, or what their parents can afford. How often do you see a good earner in a Jap car that's riced out? Once you can afford something better, folks have the tendency to move in different directions. Once your 'rice' moment in life is over, you either move to a more senseless powerful German car or if you're going for luxury you could do Jap or German.

The Fast And The Furious movie did not do much for those car brands, that was not already out there. Why do you think the movie came out? Because folks out there in the real world were already doing it...not the other way around.

The engine is only one component of the car. When you purchase a car, if power is all you are concerned with, you will soon find yourself lacking something.
I'm not that old, early 30s, but I can tell you from experience that lots more power is never the answer.
I've had friends that did major tricked out things to their Audi S4, where the car was insane with power, more so then an RS4. However, the car never ran right for more then a few days, and they always had excuses about cars not running quite optimally. Trust me when I say the same is true about those so called '1000RWHP' cars. They are meant for show, and not for daily driving, because they are probably most in the shop then anything else.

Good luck dude, and don't forget that POWER is only one of the components.
Then again, sometimes it can be good to have a 'trophy wife', until that is, when she opens her mouth!!!!

[CarbonFibre]

Here's my 2¢:
These two engines have been made to make more power than a lot of German engines for a few reasons.
1. Both of these engines are a lot older than something like the 2.7T and have been on the market longer and would have more products available for them.
2. These engines came in cars that were less expensive and more popular. More cars with these engines were sold than the S4/Allroad. More owners = more mods for lower prices. More potential profit for any tuner of these cars as well as cheaper prices for replacement parts should anything go wrong with your tuning.
3. Owners of German cars expect a higher level of refinement than owners of Japanese tuner cars. I know that these engines pushing 900 hp can do so reliably (if done correctly). Whether or not the car is streetable to you at that spec is another issue. The bigtime turbo lag that one would probably encounter with huge turbo setups needed for these numbers would also not be great.
4. This one I'm not completely sure about. I think extremely high horsepower engines in something like an S4 2.7T if you wanted 900 hp would be difficult for a few reasons. The first is the fact that there isn't much room for extra stuff inside that engine bay, especially significantly larger turbos (in stock locations I mean). The other part of this that I'm not completely sure on is the drive-by-wire throttle. It might be a lot harder (correct me if I'm wrong) to develop custom engine software for whatever huge turbo kit you are putting in than it would be for a more simple cable driven throttle Japanese engine. These Bosch ECUs are probably much more complex than what's in the Toyota or Nissan. If you can't make custom modified software work, then you'd have to go to some form of stand-alone engine management which is very expensive as well as more trouble to integrate.

I hope this gives you some reasons why this stuff is the way it is. I apoligize for any info that may be innacurate altough only point four am I unsure of.

[Martin]

Thanks to all for your replys.

To nene: well, I am actually not THAT young :D , but I think my enthutiasm and fascination for cars and motors makes me sound like a 5 year old (my ex wife said it all the time - Hey, mabye that's why she left?)

I think that my questions is based on a interest in trying to understand what goes on when the different car manufactures plans their engine layout.

As far as stock cars go, the germans and the italians is second to none. But when were talking tunercars the japanese seems to have the upper hand. I agree that when it comes to refinement these engines is not very interesting, but I personally find a 1000HP Skyline or Supra very fascinating.

As far as your replys go, I take it that your opinion is that the reason we don't see 1000HP Porsches is not that Porsche CAN'T build it as much as they WON'T.

One last question: if RUF could get 700-800-900 HP from the flat 6, woulden't he do it?

[Erik]

Originally posted by Martin
One last question: if RUF could get 700-800-900 HP from the flat 6, woulden't he do it?

They already have a package that gives ~620 hp at the wheels.

But would you rather be driving your car without problem, or constantly having problems the need to rebuild it every 5000 km?

Everything is not about hp. Think about driveability.
I've driven 380 hp 1.8T engines and I think they are useless.

[Nordschleife]

Martin
The car has to be drivable.
I am looking at the specifications of a Porsche GT2 with 640 bhp, its power delivery is most politely described as 'digital'. When its there it arrives all at once. This makes driving these cars on a road course very difficult, in fact if you go back to the old Porsche 917 race cars and CanAm cars, which developed up to 1,500 bhp in extreme emergencies (this was not disclosed at the time), from small engines, the drivers wondered how they ever managed to drive the cars, they are so hard to drive.
I don't think its a very good economic proposition to try selling a car that only the holders of an FIA Superlicence can cope with.
Now for Quarter Mile runs, its quite different and 1,500 bhp is not a problem from a control point of view, the top Quarter milers are running about 7,000 bhp, I'm told.
For really well performing road circuit cars, more important than outright horsepower is the power to weight ratio. Also remember that good brakes can develop 3 times the horsepower of engines, so the easiest way to make a car go faster round a track is to make it stop better.
So, to Mov'it, first you have to Stop'it!

R+C

[nene]

A major Tuner Powerhouse such as RuF won't do an application that reaches 1000HP or slightly less, because they have a reputation to uphold. They much rather just make the car a bit more powerful, but still stay refined for everyday use.

On the other hand, if I got a nice P-turbo monster, and gave it to RuF with thousands of dollars to make the car scream with lots of ponnies, I'm sure they would not say no to it. But that would have to be done, simply because I'd have to buy them into doing it.
It's not that they probably can't. They just choose not to invest the money, since you won't see lots of folks buying that sort of thing.

Even the 1000HP Supra and Skyline monsters, I'm sure you won't see that many of them. It's not as if you can just go into your local dealership and buy it. You would have to invest your own time and $money$. THAT sir, is the key!!!!

Glad to hear that you are older though!!!

[espen]

The 2JZ GTE is an old, crude powerplant form back in the days when engineers were unable to evaluate reliability like todays computer simulations and in stead increased dimentions by a large margin to make sure. Theres nothing sensational about that - consider the old Audi 2.2 20V engines, the old SAAB 2.3 16Vs, older Volvo fours... or what about the Chevy smallblock? Do they last? How much power du you want? :D

Old heavy iron blocks are passè, but they last well. This is why old engines often survive more than newer designs like the Audi 2.7 30V. An old 2.2 block will take as much power, but its still old and heavy.

[Erik]

Techart's new creation... I'm hopefully test driving in a few months... :)

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3203&highlight=techart

[Martin]

Originally posted by espen
The 2JZ GTE is an old, crude powerplant form back in the days when engineers were unable to evaluate reliability like todays computer simulations and in stead increased dimentions by a large margin to make sure. Theres nothing sensational about that - consider the old Audi 2.2 20V engines, the old SAAB 2.3 16Vs, older Volvo fours... or what about the Chevy smallblock? Do they last? How much power du you want? :D

Old heavy iron blocks are passè, but they last well. This is why old engines often survive more than newer designs like the Audi 2.7 30V. An old 2.2 block will take as much power, but its still old and heavy.

That's the kind of answer I was looking for. Just seems like the 2JZ GTE and the RB26DETT are in a league of their own. From what I read in the different forums relating to these cars, it is very easy to obtain, say, 500RWHP from these engines. But perhaps it's not THAT easy.

My old Audi has the 2.1 5 cyl Turbo and I know that that's the one Dahlback uses in his Golf. How much power can that engine make?

[remedy]

Well, I have no idea if the block is stock or whatever, but here is the dyno-data for the monster-Golf: http://www.dahlbackracing.se/english/bromsdata/golf.html

He apparently couldn't get traction above 5800rpm though...

Audi also ran an Audi 90 in the IMSA championship in the late 80s. It allegedly produced 720hp on the 5-cyl block.

I've also read somewhere that Audi tested a 1000+hp version of that engine for use in rallying in the mid 80s, but it was dismisssed due to being "undrivable". No idea if there's any truth to that though.

[Martin]

Originally posted by remedy
Well, I have no idea if the block is stock or whatever, but here is the dyno-data for the monster-Golf: http://www.dahlbackracing.se/english/bromsdata/golf.html

He apparently couldn't get traction above 5800rpm though...

Audi also ran an Audi 90 in the IMSA championship in the late 80s. It allegedly produced 720hp on the 5-cyl block.

I've also read somewhere that Audi tested a 1000+hp version of that engine for use in rallying in the mid 80s, but it was dismisssed due to being "undrivable". No idea if there's any truth to that though.

Thanks for the info.