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Erik
March 4th, 2004, 11:51
According to reliable sources, the RS4 has been winter tested.
What I heard was that it will be ready for test drives in the autumn and in the shops by spring time.

I hope it is true!

:rs4addict

Finnus
March 4th, 2004, 13:02
Can't wait to see pics & performance specs. Anyone with some good inside contacts?

Finnus

:addict:

McBurn4ever
March 9th, 2004, 09:18
Myself I am very curious about the engine in the new RS4.

NA V8, BiTurbo V8, Turbo VR6...
Anyone that can spread some light over this issue?



:s4addict: :rs4addict

TheBrit
March 9th, 2004, 16:48
Another forum reports NA V8 4.2, about 420PS.

ndrummond
March 12th, 2004, 21:27
There have been quite a few rumours about what engine next RS4 will have. I recently spoke to someone within Audi who told me this:

1. RS4 will have naturally asprated V8 engine of 4.2 litres. This is not a development of current 4.2 V-8. They are currently working on a brand new FSI engine that will deliver much higher horsepower but also significantly better fuel consumption. Expect in excess of 400bhp and a 0-100 kph time of 4.9-5.1 seconds. Top speed 250 kph (limited). New V-8 FSI engine will apparently be the best V-8 Audi has ever made and the RS4 will be the first model to use it. (Less highly tuned versions will subsequently go into standard models within both A6 and A8 models)

For everyone who thinks a bi-turbo will be fitted: forget it. There isn't enough room in A4 engine bay. They've tried it and cannot make it work. New V-8 is more compact but has extra grunt.

2. Expect improved electronics and chassis tunings to reduce understeer and provide sharper steering.

3. New Audi trapezoidal grille will be fitted and larger, more aggressive looking front end - like current RS6.

4. Handling dynamics expected to well and truly exclipse current BMW M3. Plus added benefit of 4WD.

An interesting but unanswered question is whether a DSG box will be available for the RS4. A paddleshift option as per current S4 will certainly be available. The current S4 has a new 6-speed tiptronic box that is pretty good, but it simply doesn't have the seamless operation of DSG. Given the universal praise DSG has received, Audi must certainly working on a DSG for more powerful V-8 models. Will it be ready for RS4 launch?

The new RS4 will be every bit as good as the current RS6 - just a little more compact and a lot more sorted in the ride and handling department. I will amlost certainly replace my current BMW M3 with this car.
:0:

Benman
March 12th, 2004, 22:44
ndrummond,

Welcome. Sounds good.:D Will be most interesting to see.

Ben :addict:

McBurn4ever
March 12th, 2004, 22:55
Mmm....sounds like an upgrade to me.. :thumb: :thumb:
Where do I sign..? :D

remedy
March 12th, 2004, 23:09
I read somewhere that the Bugatti Veyron will use a version of the DSG box. If they can make it can handle 1000hp/1300Nm, they certainly shouldn't have a problem with making the box work with the RS4. Might be 'spensive though.

Or it might be a completely different box with the same name, in which case, forget everything I just wrote. ;)

Klint
March 14th, 2004, 17:50
100bhp per Litre and handling that can take on the M3....now we're talking Audi! :D

I want one...:wo:

ndrummond
March 15th, 2004, 11:15
What's interesting to note about the specification of the next RS4 is that many people think it is too close to the existing S4. While specifications for the new RS4 cannot at this stage tell the whole story, what I think is apparent is that the S4 as it is today is an extremely complete and well conceived automobile.

The only major drawback of the B6 S4 is the way in which the current V8 has been fitted. As I am sure you all know, it was redesigned quite extensively to fit into the A4 engine bay and while this allows the power and torque of a V8 to be available the penalty is fuel consumption. In fact the 4.2 V8 in the A4 is thirstier than the same engine in either the A6 or A8. This also has something to do with the gearing.

Fuel Stratified Injection (FSI) engines have already made their way into other VW/ Audi models with a positive effect on fuel consumption. Imagine a 400 bhp Audi that does 29-30 mpg that isn't a diesel. It'll be perfect for transcontinental blasts.

I don't know when it is scheduled to debut, but I very much hope it'll be launched at the Paris show this November and ibe mmediately available thereafter.

I expect Audi UK to put out an official press release after the new A6 has hit these shores.

Finnus
March 15th, 2004, 12:21
the S4 as it is today is an extremely complete and well conceived automobile.

The only major drawback of the B6 S4 is the way in which the current V8 has been fitted. ... the penalty is fuel consumption. Fuel Stratified Injection (FSI) engines have already made their way into other VW/ Audi models with a positive effect on fuel consumption.

IMO, Audi is going to have do do far more than improve the fuel efficiency of the current S4 to have a viable RS4. It will probably cost at least 30-50% more than the S4. Do you really think people will pay that differential for improved fuel economy? I don't.

The RS4 needs to stand head and shoulders above the rest of the (audi) pack, including the S4. Audi will have to to improve performance significantly - lighten the car up, improve the handling, increase the horsepower significantly - and improve the styling cues, especially if its going to blast the M3.

Improved economy would be nice, but I wouldn't think that's very high on the priority list of RS buyers.

Finnus
:addict:

ndrummond
March 15th, 2004, 14:09
You're absolutely right. The RS4 has to deliver much more than improved fuel economy. And I believe it will.

As stated above, it will have 400-420 bhp or more than 100 bhp per litre - considerably more power than is currently available. More than that, the other major area for improvement is understeer. Improved electronic gizmos will enhance ride and handling, sharpening responses etc. These improvements alone will ensure a more focused driver's car.

Where the BMW M3 falls short - and I presently drive one - is its SMG ii greabox. It just isn't as good as the new DSG solution on the TT and A3. I don't know whether Audi is developing a version of this for the RS4, but a DSG that could handle the power of a V8 would represents a significant competitive advantage versus BMW.

Add greater fuel economy - the S4 uses much more gas than the M3 - and you have BMW beaten - but only until the V8 M4 arrives!

Finnus
March 15th, 2004, 14:31
ndrummond,

I agree. Isn't competition great? The products just keep getting better and better ... :MTM:

Finnus
:addict:

Nordschleife
March 15th, 2004, 14:35
ndrummond

I think somebody in Audi GB has been blowing smoke in your direction.

Electronic gismos improving driving feel and dynamics - how? They can help you keep it on the road, but feel......

As the engine planned for the RS4 is 4.2 litres, an output of more than 100bhp per litre suggests that the power will be more than 420 bhp, not 400 - 420 bhp!

Honestly, if anybody buys an RS4, why woulod they worry about fuel consumption, not too many tree huggers in RS4s the last time I looked! FSI can be easily adjusted to give eithjer greater fuel economy (white smoke) or more grunt out of the corners (black smoke), bit like a Papal Election really!

I am puzzled by what you say about the M3 and SMG II, I have driven the M3 CSL and liked the gearbox, not as good as Lamborghini's EGear, but still great in a performance car. DSG reminds me of hairdressers, its what it does to the feel of the car.

The M3 CSL is one of the best track cars around (once you have fixed the brakes and had the factory fit the modified chip). In standard form the CSL laps the Nordschleife in 7 min 50 sec, the Ferrari Challenge Stradale in 7 min 56 sec. Do you see the new RS4 beating either of those times? I wish it would, but I'm not holding my breath.

Interestingly, Bugatti are splitting DSG transaxles like they are going out of style, its not too robust just yet.

R+C

ndrummond
March 15th, 2004, 19:15
Nordschleife

One of the problems you get with front engined 4-wheel drive Audis is the concentration of weight above and slightly ahead of the front wheels. A BMW 3-Series by comparison has an almost perfect 50:50 balance between front and rear. This means that under braking you get nose dive which accentuates the car's natural tendancy to understeer. The S4 with a heavier V8 lump does this more than other A4 models. Audi has counteracted nose dive through Electronic Driver Aids, in particular Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD). This is an artificial means of counteracting the laws of physics and lacks the engineering purity of a BMW. If you've experienced this in an S4, you'll have noticed how it robs the car of steering feel in fast cornering, so is defintely an area for improvement.

This technical arrangement is the price you pay for having 4WD in a front-engined car with a low centre of gravity. If you want uncompromising race-car levels of ride and handling, yes, a RWD BMW is a better bet; but if you want year-round, real world, usable performance, then the S4/ RS6 is definetily a better option IMHO.

Three interesting further points:

1. The way in which power steering weights-up at a higher speeds is also an electronic driver aid. The S4's steering has been criticised and therefore it is likely that this will be improved. From the different reports I've read, there isn't realy much difference between the S4's steering and the M3's. Having driven both I agree with the journalists: they both could be better.

2. According to Autocar, the UK weekly motoring magazine, Audi is developing a new longitudinal gearbox to allow the engine to sit further back and provide space for a V10 engine to fit. Despite this the weight distribution is still expected to be something like 42:58 so while the driving experience still won't be as focused as the M3/ M5, it should still be a lot better.

3. Another recent article, (can't remember where I read it), said that the head of Audi, Martin Winterkorn, had won his battle with Bernd Pischetsrieder, head of VW Group, about the best way to make Audis more sporting: RWD. The next A4 (B7 chassis) will apparently be rear-wheel drive. If the resulting weight balance is 50:50 and larger displacement models have 4WD, then both purists and pragmatists will be happy.

All this means that Audi is definitely moving in the right direction.
By the way, my source was from Audi Germany not Audi UK.

Nordschleife
March 15th, 2004, 20:00
Originally posted by ndrummond


One of the problems you get with front engined 4-wheel drive Audis is the concentration of weight above and slightly ahead of the front wheels. A BMW 3-Series by comparison has an almost perfect 50:50 balance between front and rear. This means that under braking you get nose dive which accentuates the car's natural tendancy to understeer. The S4 with a heavier V8 lump does this more than other A4 models. Audi has counteracted nose dive through Electronic Driver Aids, in particular Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD). This is an artificial means of counteracting the laws of physics and lacks the engineering purity of a BMW. If you've experienced this in an S4, you'll have noticed how it robs the car of steering feel in fast cornering, so is defintely an area for improvement.

This technical arrangement is the price you pay for having 4WD in a front-engined car with a low centre of gravity. If you want uncompromising race-car levels of ride and handling, yes, a RWD BMW is a better bet; but if you want year-round, real world, usable performance, then the S4/ RS6 is definetily a better option IMHO.

Three interesting further points:

1. The way in which power steering weights-up at a higher speeds is also an electronic driver aid. The S4's steering has been criticised and therefore it is likely that this will be improved. From the different reports I've read, there isn't realy much difference between the S4's steering and the M3's. Having driven both I agree with the journalists: they both could be better.

2. According to Autocar, the UK weekly motoring magazine, Audi is developing a new longitudinal gearbox to allow the engine to sit further back and provide space for a V10 engine to fit. Despite this the weight distribution is still expected to be something like 42:58 so while the driving experience still won't be as focused as the M3/ M5, it should still be a lot better.

3. Another recent article, (can't remember where I read it), said that the head of Audi, Martin Winterkorn, had won his battle with Bernd Pischetsrieder, head of VW Group, about the best way to make Audis more sporting: RWD. The next A4 (B7 chassis) will apparently be rear-wheel drive. If the resulting weight balance is 50:50 and larger displacement models have 4WD, then both purists and pragmatists will be happy.

All this means that Audi is definitely moving in the right direction.
By the way, my source was from Audi Germany not Audi UK.


I think you misunderstand what EBD does -

Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD)
Electronic brake-force distribution (EBD) and the anti-lock braking system (ABS), constitute one unit inasmuch as they share a number of the same parts. EBD ensures maximum braking performance at the front and rear wheels and under normal conditions it prevents the rear-end from breaking away because of over-braking. The system counteracts 'fading' as a result of overheating.

This is Audi's own definition. EBD's purpose is to apply as much brake force as possible under extreme braking conditions , even if the driver is not applying maximum force to the brake pedal.

From a braking viewpoint, the more weight over an axle, the greater the braking potential of that axle, subject to the limitations of the tyre contact patch and surface conditions. EBD will not counteract the transfer of weight under braking from the rear axle to the front axle. So, EBD does not counteract understeer. The best way of counteracting understeer is to learn how to balance the car for a corner, its the sudden change of direction in an unbalanced car which accentuated understeer and oversteer. With experience, you under or oversteer through a corner at will, especially if you learn to 'lob' the car like a Rally driver. A driver using trail braking, or left foot braking within a corner to cut down on understeer and to help with rotation towards the apex, will not be applying the brakes sufficiently firmly to induce activation of the EBD system.

As far as the weighting up of the steering with speed, its debatable whether this is better or just different. Do not confuse an electrical servo assisted system with an electronic system.

Your 'German Audi source' is either being hyper discrete or is out of the loop. There is already an RS4 driving round Neckarsulm with a V-10 Gallardo engine fitted.

Quoting UK motoring magazines is OK if you are doing comedy, but its an extremely unreliable way of understanding what is going on. Take the time to talk to the principals yourself.

R+C

Erik
March 15th, 2004, 20:06
Originally posted by Nordschleife
There is already an RS4 driving round Neckarsulm with a V-10 Gallardo engine fitted.

:revs: :MTM:

Finnus
March 15th, 2004, 21:24
There is already an RS4 driving round Neckarsulm with a V-10 Gallardo engine fitted.

Bring it on!

Finnus
:addict:

AudiTumbo
March 15th, 2004, 23:58
4.9-5.1 sec to 100km/h is NOT fast for a new RS4... :(

Bauer
March 16th, 2004, 00:29
Nord-

I assume the V-10 RS4 is strickly a development mule and will not hit production??? Or will it??? Also if quattro Gmbh does go with a NA motor it would be a shift in philosophy for the RS cars. I can't wait for the next 3 years as the cars being engineered are going to be a real treat.:dance:

Nordschleife
March 16th, 2004, 00:44
Originally posted by Bauer
Nord-

I assume the V-10 RS4 is strickly a development mule and will not hit production??? Or will it??? Also if quattro Gmbh does go with a NA motor it would be a shift in philosophy for the RS cars. I can't wait for the next 3 years as the cars being engineered are going to be a real treat.:dance:

Bauer
Please don't ask questions I cannot answer (geddit?)
R+C

Klint
March 16th, 2004, 17:42
Either it's a test mule for the Rs6 or....or....or...Holy schmokes! :wo:

Please, Please have the Rs4 in saloon form and with a manual and in Misano Red and with m3 beating credentials and with a V10 or 420bhp 4.2 V8 and with a 1750kg maximum weight.... :wo: :wo: :wo: :wo:

Finnus
March 16th, 2004, 19:45
Please, Please have the Rs4 in saloon form and with a manual and in Misano Red and with m3 beating credentials and with a V10 or 420bhp 4.2 V8 and with a 1750kg maximum weight....

Imagine a 450-500 hp V10 - that gets my vote. I might have to find a way to purchase that monster, even in an Avant!

Finnus
:addict:

ndrummond
March 16th, 2004, 20:28
As desirable as it it would be, I really think a V-10 RS4 is unlikely.

From a marketing perspective, why would Audi do it? It would need to put the same engine in the RS6, in which case there might not be sufficient extra power to justify buying an RS6 over an RS4. Also Audi also needs a spectacular engine to put in the forthcoming S8. This is also rumoured to be the V-10 from the Gallardo and likewise a similarly engined RS-4 would canabilise sales from this as well as other higher margin, larger models.

Does Audi need to move up from a V-8 in the A4 series? Not just yet. After all it was the first manufacturer to put a V-8 in this class of car. There is also the question of engine bay room. There is no room left for turbos let alone another two cylinders.

I would love to be proved wrong, but this is the first I've heard of a V-10 in an RS4.

steve
March 16th, 2004, 21:22
true Ndrummond, but it was mercedes who put an 8-cyl in a midclass saloon for the first time (C43)

I think it's also better that Audi sticks to a V8 for the A4... There has to be a certain difference with (R)S 6 or 8...

ndrummond
March 19th, 2004, 22:13
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nordschleife
[B]I think you misunderstand what EBD does -

I bow to your superior knowledge. Thank you for explaining this so well. :blush:

wasn
March 22nd, 2004, 09:47
Ok just from a gut feeling and some in depth talks to a few audi rs6 drivers, what we all sorted of come to a similar conclusion, is that the new RS4 will get the 425hp new v8 n/a motor but the icing on the cake would be a substaintial weight reduction over the current S4, so what it means is a more powerful and lighter car which solves may of the s4 inherintant weight probs.
Don't quote me on this i just drive an audi!!

gabeyung
March 22nd, 2004, 19:48
if a v8 twin turbo cant fit, is a w8 twin turbo possible??
just my 2cents
:rs4addict