E60 M5 may "only" have 500hp and SMG ONLY

[Bauer]

After rumors of up to 550hp and settling around 530hp....now it appears it may be confirmed at 500hp with SMG ONLY, no manual.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=39576

Well boys if this is the case looks like a chiped RS6 (500hp to 530hp) should be able to handel a new E60 M5. The E60 M5 will produce around 380ft tq to 390ft tq. leaving a chiped RS6 a 100+ advantage. :bye2:

[iconcls]

Gotta love turbos! :love:

[Aronis]

Wait until the real car is on real streets.

BMW's tend to perform better than the peak hp numbers would suggest.

Should be interesting.

Personally, I don't compare stock with modified cars, it make no sense. You could always add a supercharger or Nitros injector to a car.....and is it faster, posibly, would it last a long time, maybe not.

If the RS6 is beat by the new M5, no big deal, just wait for wet roads or a little snow and you can race that guy in his winter car LOL...

Mike

[nene]

I don't know what the whole stink is all about. An SMG M5 is still better then no M5 at all.
It should be a great car in looks, handling, and power. What else do you need?

I really thought that the original 550+ HP expected ratings was incredibly high. But, one never knows, so I was waiting to see what the real thing was going to be.

I love the M5, but I only like the RS6 more in this case because it was manufactured in less quantity.

But whether you choose an E55, RS6 or old/new M5, darn these are fun cars to own and drive. Can't go wrong with any of them.

[Aronis]

Here, Here,

I agree with you.

All are great rides..

Mike

[Erik]

I guess we will know more tomorrow morning when the press gets access to Geneva.

In any case I don't think an RS6 will have much to say against the new M5. New car, new generation. A start from scratch again.
When the previous M5 was released it caught everyone off-guard.
This time it's a different story, everyone's awake! We just have to wait for our turn and the RS4 V8 and the RS6 V10.
What I heard from quattro GmbH people is that Audi and BMW will not follow the hp war that MB has started. I think it's kind of good, otherwise we would be driving 1000 hp family cars for no reason in a few years. There are other fields where performance can be found and developed.

[Aronis]

Refinement is a better next step than simply more horsepower.

The issues with the brakes for example could be eliminated! Suspension tweaks are always welcome, and put the GPS with display please LOL

Mike

[Bauer]

I typically do not compare stock to modified because it is very hard to equate all of the aspects, true power, reliability, performance, ect. I was just stating a common trend that I do think is interesting although not entirely accurate.

As for the HP wars, I am happy we have them.....to a point. I would agree that HP for the sake of HP is stupid. The performance of the car as a whole is much more important.

I do think the new E60 M will be a fantastic drivers car and from the pics is not overly offensive in style. I will have to wait and see it in person to make a final judgement.

:rs6kiss:

[Audihead]

Quick Question. How high do you think HP #'s will get before the companies & or the governments regin them in? This is a great period of automotive history we're living in.:applause:

:s4addict: -Bimmerhead

[Bauer]

I think they will start being concerned when the higher hp motors make there way into cheaper cars. Therefor more people owning them. I think currently there is too much of a cost barrier for them to be too concerned. Who knows though?

[Hawk]

Originally posted by Aronis
Wait until the real car is on real streets.

BMW's tend to perform better than the peak hp numbers would suggest.

Should be interesting.

Personally, I don't compare stock with modified cars, it make no sense. You could always add a supercharger or Nitros injector to a car.....and is it faster, posibly, would it last a long time, maybe not.

If the RS6 is beat by the new M5, no big deal, just wait for wet roads or a little snow and you can race that guy in his winter car LOL...

Mike

:thumb: :thumb:

[EternalX]

If i had to choose between an E60 m5 with SMG, or no M5, id take the M5 if it was given to me. But im not going to pay that much money and not get exactly what i want (i.e. a manual in a high-hp car). I just dont see why BMW would take the route to delete a manual transmission from the car when they have to know they will loose customers because of it. They may gain some because its a nice new car, but in the long run, i dont think itll work well.

[Erik]

500 hp / 500 Nm torque / SMG 7 gears.

[Erik]

http://www.uploadit.org/ascariss/bmw_m5_new_02.jpg

[Hawk]

Quote from the official press release:

This car is a far-reaching concept on an appealing subject: the BMW Concept M5. Such a car could undoubtedly serve as a stimulus and offer solutions for a future series-production vehicle.

...producing around 500 bhp (368 kW) and a maximum torque of at least 500 Nm

Engineers at BMW M envisage the car accelerating from 0 to 100 km/h (0 to 62 mph) over the classic distance in well under 5 seconds, the 200 km/h mark being reached in just 13 seconds.

BMW M engineers would not focus on sheer torque alone, but first and foremost on engine power, a sign of effective utilisation of the undoubtedly very substantial performance potential that is available.

Thanks to a superior gearbox solution, the driver can benefit from a completely new 7-speed SMG, a rapid manual gear-shift and, if required, comfortable cruising.

BMW M engineers aspired to achieve the best power-to-weight ratio in this market segment, thereby fully utilising their abundant experience in suspension design.

In addition to a specially tuned Dynamic Stability Control (DSC), a variable M-type limited-slip differential, which we are already familiar with from the BMW M3, ensures optimum driving behaviour in all situations.

The 9½ inch light-alloy rear wheels, manufactured especially for the
BMW Concept M5, boast specially designed, extra wide 285/35 ZR 19 tyres. At the front there are 255/40 ZR 19 tyres on 8½ inch wheels, controlled by a newly designed Servotronic steering which is fitted as standard. A reinforced breaking system developed especially for the BMW Concept M5 enables the driver to fully control the engine’s exceptional performance.

Needless to say, the BMW Concept M5 also offers scores of ideas for equipping the car with particularly exclusive and sporty options. Without going into detail right now, it can be said that the special solutions required to satisfy the demanding customer’s preferences in this particular market segment have been realised.

...go on sale during the course of the year 2004.

For the full press release go here:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sh...2&postcount=119

[Aronis]

Great photo, does the car justice, but still want to see it in person, don't care for the front lights so much...

But sometimes the RIGHT FOOT is all that matters.

Mike

[oregonbob]

I was a HUGE BMW fan but do not like the new styling direction and iDrive. That said, the M5 concept is the best looking E60 5 series to date. If the car has xDrive as an option to deal with all that torque, it may be a real contender to the RS6, current or new. Without xDrive, no matter how well the M5 performs in the dry, it can't be the all weather car that and RS6 can. That doesn't make it an undesireable car, just less efficient as a daily driver in poor weather.

With regard to the talk about a true clutch type manual transmission, I have been told the real issue with the M5 and all cars with seven or more gears is how to create an effective H-type shift pattern once above six gears. The gear shift would have to be four wide. That's one reason why the Mercedes seven speed is a torque converter automatic and the new M5 is slated to be an SMG.

Bob

[Gustav]

Here is a working link:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=39596

It will do 0-200 km/h in 13 s. I have never seen any times near that on a tuned RS6 or RS4. :0:

The new M5 is off the charts performance wise. Close to Porsche 996 GT2 in performance. Wow.


Originally posted by Hawk

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sh...2&postcount=119

[iconcls]

Originally posted by Gustav
It will do 0-200 km/h in 13 s.

IF the car lives up to the marketing, impressive indeed.

I applaud BMW for it's shift in focus to weight reduction, I wish Audi "got it."

On the other hand, it looks like a**, and Bangle should be shot for ruining the brand.

[Gustav]

I would be surprised if BMW M did not live up to its claimed performance. :bow:

[steve]

I think 13.0 for 0-200 is a bit optimistic. BMW has been pushing performance numbers ahead the latest time I notice. Take the 530d... 7.2 to 100? NO WAY, even AMundS got only 8.2 or something.

[Finnus]

Too bad the official press release didn't include a 0-60 time. But think about it, 500 hp + designed with weight reduction in mind + without the weight and loss of power to Quattro will add up to stunning performance in dry conditions.

Don't get me wrong, I still think its ugly. A straight on photo of the air intakes on the front reminds me of Jack Nicholson's leer as Two Face in the Batman movie. LOL

Finnus
:addict:

[Erik]

Originally posted by Finnus
Too bad the official press release didn't include a 0-60 time.

They mentioned "under 5 seconds."

:harass: Got traction? :hahahehe:

[Erik]

Why are there NO SIDE MIRRORS on this picture? :vhmmm:

http://mediapool.bmw.com/daten/pczoom/P0014076.JPG

[Gustav]

Got the patented M-Differential :0:


Originally posted by Erik
They mentioned "under 5 seconds."

:harass: Got traction? :hahahehe:

[Erik]

Originally posted by Gustav
Got the patented M-Differential :0:

Has it got anything to do with four wheel drive? :rotflmao: :lovl:

[Gustav]

No but with grip :applause:


Originally posted by Erik
Has it got anything to do with four wheel drive? :rotflmao: :lovl:

[Artur Costa]

Originally posted by steve
I think 13.0 for 0-200 is a bit optimistic. BMW has been pushing performance numbers ahead the latest time I notice. Take the 530d... 7.2 to 100? NO WAY, even AMundS got only 8.2 or something.

Steve the 530d was already tested doing 7.1s here in portugal... :D

The E34 M5 sayd 5.9s... I can make it in 5.5s....
The times from the E39 M5 are also higher then real life...so if BMW says 13s 0-200 I have to believe! :race:

[Erik]

What do you say about this one? :D

http://www.mctammany.com/porsche/6speedonline/m5.jpg

made by greyghost

[bilbozilla]

As to the lack of mirrors in the picture, I think it got cold.:applause:

[steve]

Originally posted by Artur Costa
Steve the 530d was already tested doing 7.1s here in portugal... :D

The E34 M5 sayd 5.9s... I can make it in 5.5s....
The times from the E39 M5 are also higher then real life...so if BMW says 13s 0-200 I have to believe! :race:

Well then that is the best I've seen so far. 7.7 was the best number I saw:D

[Artur Costa]

Originally posted by steve
Well then that is the best I've seen so far. 7.7 was the best number I saw:D

Hey Steve , a 530d deliveres 245bhp and 590nm at the dyno!!! And this is stock ! :eek:

Another spanish magazine tested it at 7.2s :bye2:

Its a hell of a car...

[Finnus]

Gustav,

I saw the "under 5 seconds" 0-60 reference, but that doesn't tell me anything. In fact, I would say that under 5 seconds goes with out saying. I would be very surprised considering BMW's referenced weight saving measures (whatever those are), that we would be looking at 4.2 seconds. After all, they'll want to upstage the E55 AMG at 4.3, won't they???

Erik, Nice side shot of the stock M5 ...

Finnus
:addict:

[Klint]

The E60 M5 is going to be phenomenal.

SMG will kill the rear wheel power figures (compared to manual box) wether or not the ///M diffential is fitted or not.

Gustav, I'll look out for you folks at Geneva! :0:

[Klint]

I'm also interested in seeing what Audi comes up with, from past analysis it appears the Rs6 is always the later model of the uber-saloon line to hit the markets, with the Mercedes branded E55 being the first, then the Jaguar XJR and the M5 in between the XJR and the Rs6.

No doubt, Audi will toss the competitors into a tossed hat with ease. :addict:

[Benman]

Originally posted by Bauer
now 500hp with SMG ONLY, no manual.



Well, the prophecy comes true. The manual transmission is truly going the way of the Dodo Bird. If the "Ultimate Driving Machine" 's ultimate car no longer has a manual as an option then things are not looking could for those who still desire a stick.

And to think all those BMW fans picking on the RS 6 cause it had a "slush box".

Ben:addict:

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Klint
The E60 M5 is going to be phenomenal.

SMG will kill the rear wheel power figures (compared to manual box) wether or not the ///M diffential is fitted or not.

Gustav, I'll look out for you folks at Geneva! :0:


Guys
There seems to be a complete misunderstanding about SMG, it uses a manual gearbox and executes changes far faster than a manual box.
Some implementations of this type of gearchange actuation mechanism allow for machine initiated changes under certain conditions, like red-lining under full throttle, but it is still a MANUAL box.
Do not be misled by Ferrari's F1, Maserati's Cambiocorsa, BMW's SMG and Lamborghini's EGear all being actuated by paddles on the steering wheel/column like the tiptronic paddles on the RS6. The RS6 has an automatic gearbox, not a manual box. The BMWs have a manual box, the Lamborghinis have a manual box.
There is no way that the SMG gearbox 'will kill the rear wheel power figures', the BMW gearbox with SMG is NOT a 'slushbox'.
BMW was very careful to say as little as possible about the M5 Concept car at Geneva, its specification is not fixed, so I wouldn't try to draw any conclusions from what has been shown.
For your information, the LSD used by BMW in the M3 was developed by GKN's differential team in Italy. It can be fitted to most cars.
HTH
R+C

[bilbozilla]

Amen to Nordschleife's comments. The manual gearbox with automated shifting is not going to hurt the bimmer's performance. For all the complaining (myself included) about the styling and execution of their (BMW's) technologies, they build a technologically and mechanically sound vehicle. I can't imagine the new M5 being released without setting a new benchmark for 4 door sports sedans. Anything less would just be foolish. That should give Audi a year or so to adjust their pants and get everything in line for the release of the next RS6.

[CarbonFibre]

I very much like this new M5. As someone else mentioned, they aren't making a manual option (allegedly) because it's a 7 speed. I would take this car over a current RS6, and I'm a general Audi fan. Let us just hope that Audi brings the new RS6 out relatively soon after this new C6 chassis has made its intro this year as opposed to waiting until the very end of its production like they did for this one.

[remedy]

Even M couldn't de-uglify this car. Damn Bangle...

[Benman]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
Guys
There seems to be a complete misunderstanding about SMG, it uses a manual gearbox and executes changes far faster than a manual box.

it is still a MANUAL box.
Do not be misled by Ferrari's F1, Maserati's Cambiocorsa, BMW's SMG and Lamborghini's EGear all being actuated by paddles on the steering wheel/column like the tiptronic paddles on the RS6. The RS6 has an automatic gearbox, not a manual box.
R+C

I'm not disputing the fact that SMG (along with E Gear and all the other cluthless manuals) is different than the auto offered in the RS 6. What i am pointing out is that it is most certainly NOT a traditional manual. There is no clutch. It will upshift at redline. It will downshift if the RPMs drop too low. You can stick it in drive and the car will shift by itself. These are all things that, the last time i checked, you can not do with a manual. Calling this transmission a manual is misleading.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Nordschleife]

Ben
Drive an SMG or EGear and it will feel like a manual, drive a tiptronic and it feels like an automatic.
Its completely instinctive to treat one of these boxes like a manual.
HTH
R+C

[Aronis]

Have you looked at the 6 speed auto in the TT...

It has a setup where the transmission is actually 'in-gear' for the next gear already, but having two electrcially actuated clutches....

So when it is in First, the second clutch is out, and the gears for second are already connected, and so on, so it can shift fast has possible in this configuration.


Sequential shifters will (if not already) out perform vertually any human shifting via convential full manual with clutch.

The newer designs don't have torque converters, but clutches, thus the sluggish shifting of automatic transmisions will be gone.

Now of course, the Clutches will still wear out, and with two or more clutches in a new sequential shifter, that sounds expensive LOL.

But even with a traditional Automatic with Torque converter, my RS6 makes me smile.......

Raced some high end bimmers in Grenwich Connecticut this weekend, including an M5, crushed them all.....LOL

even with my SNOW TIRES ON !

Mike

[Nordschleife]

Ben
To amplify what I said, these boxes do not have a "Drive" that they can be stuck in, they have gears, and neutral, and you can select a Sport or Normal, or, on the Gallardo, a Winter shift program which determines how fast they shift and the degree of electronic intervention in snow and ice.
They truely are manual gearboxes in terms of their behavioural characteristics.
HTH
Robin