Intercooler blues

[DKP]

Morning from Colorado. Everyone staying health I hope?

Hey doing my version of a Muggy refresh and had some Intercoolers welded Up by Apikol and did't know the right questions to ask. Well the guys at the shop are wanting to push my car off the lift which at this point I might me in favor of. First of all can't get them in the space without moving the fender out or having the fender actually touching the IC. Second all the ducting is now longer usable as it doesn't fit and the back ducting would have to be abandoned which I don't love either. May have to return these to Apikol. So my question to all the DIY guys out there is are there any pointers you can offer and secondly has anyone used the Wagner kit that comes with fresh ducting to match the new intercooler. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all

DKP

[SteveKen]

Was Apikol able to give you any support?

As far as I can remember, the Wagner kits seem to be the most complete aftermarket ones out there. The fact that they supply new ducting is a good indication that they thought beyond just making larger/better intercoolers.

I had mine made with bell cores and the stock end tanks and tabs have to be welded on the cores for the stock ducts to be mounted.

I've also worked with some SRM units that I thought were poor quality and didn't match some of the earlier ones advertised/pictured by them, where some fins were inconsistent or missing, the end tanks looked like they were cast in 2 pieces with a parting line and the mounting holes in them were tapped with M7 threads.

Good luck.

[DKP]

Thanks SteveKen

Didn't want to Bash anyone but guys at my shop called Apikol and they were absolutely no help. Seemed very uninterested in offering and tips or pointers. May just return those to Apikol and do the Wagner kit. Were the Bell cores you used the same size as stock or larger. Wish someone just made the stock size core to make it less of a struggle.

[Muggy]

Been very happy with my Wagners...PO installed less than a year before I bought it from him. Nice fit, seem to be solidly constructed, and the carbon ducts that they supply fit well too.

http://www.fototime.com/FAEDAAF6CC0C9DA/medium800.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/736E9C1C0BBAEE3/medium800.jpg

Stinks about Apikol, thought they knew their RS6 stuff, but maybe not!

[DKP]

Thanks for the pictures and fitment affirmation. The guys at my shop are confident they repaired mine. Minor leakage but was replacing them as the engine was out. So decided to put it back together and when I do my next timing belt service I’ll replace them at that time. Did the PO ditch the rear shrouds with the Wagner’s or modify them. I did find a pair of NOS IC in Germany that I’m pondering as well. Just add them to my pile O parts.

[SteveKen]

Thanks SteveKen

Didn't want to Bash anyone but guys at my shop called Apikol and they were absolutely no help. Seemed very uninterested in offering and tips or pointers. May just return those to Apikol and do the Wagner kit. Were the Bell cores you used the same size as stock or larger. Wish someone just made the stock size core to make it less of a struggle.

I used Bell P/N A300090100 which are pretty much flush in thickness with the end tanks.

You can actually go the next thicker size and 'stretch' the welds.

[Muggy]

Thanks for the pictures and fitment affirmation. The guys at my shop are confident they repaired mine. Minor leakage but was replacing them as the engine was out. So decided to put it back together and when I do my next timing belt service I’ll replace them at that time. Did the PO ditch the rear shrouds with the Wagner’s or modify them. I did find a pair of NOS IC in Germany that I’m pondering as well. Just add them to my pile O parts.

Unfortunately any rear shrouds that may have been there are gone...not sure if it makes a difference that mine has the hot climate package with the radiators behind the IC's.

[DKP]

Yea after seeing my car apart my guess is with the new thicker IC the rear shroud would have to get cut down pretty severely. But your auxiliary radiators are still in the car correct. Boy i tell you the parts hunting with these cars is becoming a full time job. Now I can’t find any EGT sensors. Wanted to replace everything I could while the engine is out. My EGT’s are throwing codes periodically. Anyone have any tips on EGT sensor supplier.

[P1054]

I had issues with my EGTs a few years ago. Rather than pay the price for new OE ones, I replaced the PCBs with ones from http://www.sidmotorsport.pl/. I believe someone here on the forum recommended them. I don't think they advertise them on their site, you have to email sidaudis4@gmail.com. Andre's communication was prompt, and I think the total turnaround time was around one month.

You just have to de-solder the old boards (I want to say there are 5 solder points?) and then install the new ones. No too difficult.

Three years later mine are still working fine.

[Muggy]

Yea after seeing my car apart my guess is with the new thicker IC the rear shroud would have to get cut down pretty severely. But your auxiliary radiators are still in the car correct. Boy i tell you the parts hunting with these cars is becoming a full time job. Now I can’t find any EGT sensors. Wanted to replace everything I could while the engine is out. My EGT’s are throwing codes periodically. Anyone have any tips on EGT sensor supplier.

Yeah, my secondary rads are still in there...haven't had EGT issues (on this car) ... yet...:vhmmm:

[DKP]

Yeah, my secondary rads are still in there...haven't had EGT issues (on this car) ... yet...:vhmmm:

I didn't know I was having issues until we pulled codes. My shop said they won't ever trip a check engine light but will automatically dial back the turbos if your really putting the car through the paces. Like track work or high speeds for long periods of time. I found one of the sensors in the states. Will keep looking for another,

[DKP]

Yea after seeing my car apart my guess is with the new thicker IC the rear shroud would have to get cut down pretty severely. But your auxiliary radiators are still in the car correct. Boy i tell you the parts hunting with these cars is becoming a full time job. Now I can’t find any EGT sensors. Wanted to replace everything I could while the engine is out. My EGT’s are throwing codes periodically. Anyone have any tips on EGT sensor supplier.

If I ask the guys at the shop to wait another month for parts I think my car might mysteriously fall off the lift. That being said I will explore the option for the future. Thanks for the tip

[nubcake]

With a stock car & a non-stock tune you should be fine with just deleting them, if your calibrator knows what he's doing.
Even though I usually recommend getting them fixed or replaced anyway.

With a complete stocker - you have no options, but to get them fixed.
Stock calibration always runs the engine super lean to the point of regularly tripping EGT sensor enrichment thresholds.

[DKP]

Nubcake you have to forgive me I build houses for a living and sometimes the RS6 lingo goes over my head. What has to be calibrated. Are you saying tricking the computer into thinking everything is OK? My car is bone stock.

[Muggy]

I think nubcake's point is that the stock tune runs on the lean side, and with this, the EGT's can get up there under a long load pull that make the sensors tell the computer to add extra fuel. In this case, you need the sensors in tact so they work as they should to save the motor from running too lean in these situations. If you are not familiar with fueling, there is a fine balance of too little or too much fuel in which can be different in every running situation (starting, idle, cruise, hard pull, decelerations). Too much, and the car will run cooler, but will be sluggish and have less power...then there is a sweet spot in the middle with strong power and proper running....too little and the car will run lean and can get very hot which can cause damage.

With a custom tune from an amazing tuner here on the boards, :hihi: , extra fuel can be added in the right situations so it doesn't run as lean as the stock tune. If you don't run too lean, then the EGT's will stay lower, thus making the sensors unnecessary as they'll never reach the thresholds to add that extra fuel. A custom tune isn't tricking the sensors, it's making the car run richer when needed so the EGT's aren't getting too hot to trip the sensors.

As far as I know, and others may correct me, the EGT sensors are more of a failsafe in an emergency situation (lean running on hard pulls for instance) and not used to control normal operations like a MAF, coolant temp, crank position, or O2 sensor does with constant input to the ECU. The car is happy to run without input from the EGT sensors if they are tuned out properly so the ECU isn't thinking that they are disconnected or not working correctly (achievable with a custom tune).

Hope this is helpful.

Again, I could be wrong with this assumption, but maybe the codes that you see are just saying that the EGT sensors were activated (but are not broken), showing that you did have a lean situation from time to time as nubcake says is common with the stock tune under hard pulls. My old car was a 2.7t A6, and the sensors were faulty...this put the car into limp mode that cut boost way back and added fuel...it was very obvious...the car ran fine, just no real power. I put some diodes in there to trick the ECU into thinking they were fine (I know, ghetto fix, but helped to identify the issue) and the car had full boost and power. Limp mode put it at about 5-6 psi on the boost instead of 16-20.

[DKP]

So much learning. Thanks Muggy. Very enlightening. My car has never been in limp mode so maybe it's as you say they are working and only reporting that they were activated. I'll run it by the shop and see what the scan read out said. I wonder if the scan would say faulty or activated? I did find one of the sensors so will replace that one for sure and continue my search for the other. So who is this Obi Wan Tuner you speak of and how does one going about this process. We have 4 RS6's in the Vail valley and my shop works on all of them I believe so he has been fairly well educated but that might be out of his comfort zone.

Thanks again for the insights.

[nubcake]

Muggy's mostly correct.

Although, if there's a code for EGT sensors - they're going (gone) bad.
Triggering high temp thresholds is considered "normal operation", so no codes will be stored for that.

The tuner he's talking about is yours truly. ;)

[DKP]

Thanks for the clarification Nubcake. So I've found one of the sensors new and I'm not to keen on it but I found the other one used. Not thrilled about used. As my shop guys said you already have a used one. Says its been tested so who know how long a used one would last. 2 weeks or two years.

So whats the procedure for getting you to recode my ECU and what are the estimated costs. I'm fine with my stock car power etc so nothing special on the tune. I hear lots of chit chat about the TCU tune. Any advantages to that with a stock car?

Thanks

[nubcake]

New EGT sensors are very expensive. If you can get a used one cheaply - worth a shot.
Can also order 2 replacement boards from http://www.sidmotorsport.pl/ as mentioned earlier by P1054.
Regarding the tune - I'll PM you.

[Muggy]

Muggy's mostly correct.

Although, if there's a code for EGT sensors - they're going (gone) bad.
Triggering high temp thresholds is considered "normal operation", so no codes will be stored for that.

The tuner he's talking about is yours truly. ;)

Great to know and thanks for the clarification on codes for the EGT sensors...

And yes, nubcake is also secretly Obi Wan Tuneobi!

DKP, if you are happy with a stock tune/power, then you probably could care less about the TCU tune. I know that nubcake will follow up, but his tuning procedure is a breeze once you get a few cables. You'll also need an older PC/laptop running Windows...XP I think? I bought a cheap one on eBay just for this purpose. Nubcake can guide you through the process, but honestly, again, if you are happy with what you have, there's no need to upgrade....just stick with quality repairs to OEM spec.

[GermanzAutozYaa]

Sounds like much has already been covered, for what it's worth I went with Wagner kit a month ago and things are great.

https://www.rs6.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19356&stc=1

[Muggy]

Not that it really matters, but I thing your grilles are in backwards...notice the "WE" logo on a site listing them for sale and mine on the bench. The tabs on the side with the logo are backwards on yours and should tuck behind the edge of the bumper opening.

EDIT...still trying to figure this out...looks like my tabs are reversed from the ones on the web site photos, so maybe yours are in "correctly"...I have my bumper on my back porch now and will make this a project this weekend to take a closer look!

http://www.fototime.com/029970CDCEF39A5/medium800.jpg

https://www.etektuning.com/wagner-tuning-audi-rs6-c5-air-inlet-grills

https://www.wagner-tuning.com/product/audi/audi-rs6-c5-typ-4b/luftfuehrungsgitter-kit-fuer-audi-rs6-001002025.html

[GermanzAutozYaa]

I noticed this when I got it back a couple weeks ago, though I kinda like that is says ew cuz this car is gross.

I just haven't had the chance yet to flip them around and see, let me know what you find out though. If in fact it is backwards, I will make the time to flip them.

[Muggy]

I noticed this when I got it back a couple weeks ago, though I kinda like that is says ew cuz this car is gross.

I just haven't had the chance yet to flip them around and see, let me know what you find out though. If in fact it is backwards, I will make the time to flip them.

Yeah, I'll take a look...it's a mini project that I've been wanting to work on for a while since my bumper is off for my engine pull. I'm considering pulling the fogs to open up the intakes a bit as well as long as I'm happy with the look and fit of the Wagner grills.

[DKP]

Hey P1054. Quick question. Did you do the board replacement on your EGT’s yourself or have a shop do it? If you did it yourself what was your technique on getting them open without breaking them.

thanks. DKP

[GreggPDX]

Hey P1054. Quick question. Did you do the board replacement on your EGT’s yourself or have a shop do it? If you did it yourself what was your technique on getting them open without breaking them.

thanks. DKP

Not P1054, but I repaired mine as well, and if I recall correctly, I just carefully pried the case open, using a sharp blade and patience. I did the re-solder per this thread: https://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/32494-EGT-sensor-DIY-repair-with-photos and it's been working fine ever since. I also did it with the sensors still attached to the car because they are pretty much impossible to remove with the engine installed.

[GreggPDX]

Yeah, I'll take a look...it's a mini project that I've been wanting to work on for a while since my bumper is off for my engine pull. I'm considering pulling the fogs to open up the intakes a bit as well as long as I'm happy with the look and fit of the Wagner grills.

Mine are reversed:
https://www.rs6.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19357&stc=1

One thing to keep in mind is that ideally these can easily be removed (particularly the passenger side) because they need to come out if you ever have to use the tow hook.

[P1054]

Hey P1054. Quick question. Did you do the board replacement on your EGT’s yourself or have a shop do it? If you did it yourself what was your technique on getting them open without breaking them.

thanks. DKP

I did them myself. The process was just how Gregg explained. I also referred to the post Gregg linked below, but my EGTs had a hard rubbery black filler instead of silicone gel. The hardest part was getting all of that filler material off the PCB inside the case. Once I got that out of the way, the board replacement was straightforward.

[DKP]

Thanks for all the pointers gentlemen. I sourced a couple of used ones that I’m not thrilled about using as well as ordered the new boards. Unfortunately the shop needs their lift back and my car is taking up a bay so I’ve got a deadline. So I’ll install the used and cross my fingers and if for some reason the boards show up in time I’ll fix my old ones. If the used ones crap out next year I’ll do the board replacement in car as described.

As a side note I know Audi didn’t send all than many of these to the states but they did sell them for a few years in Europe. It just seems lame that parts are getting so hard to find and I thought the Audi Heritage site was incredibly lame. I’ve not had an occasion to visit the Mercedes heritage site but I feel it must be more comprehensive as they advertise it in most of the car magazines. Just seems like more effort could be put into keeping their cars on the road. I know it’s a business but I’d think it would be good for business as an advertising campaign or something. Looking for parts the last couple weeks has been a world tour and nearly a full time job. I’ve been to Russia, Poland, Slovakia, Italy and Minnesota.
OK I’m done venting.

thanks again everyone for all the insights. This sight literally makes the RS6 experience possible.

[Muggy]

I feel your pain...definitely way more stressful when you have a deadline and significant amounts of cash to deal with. I've been planning my project for over a year and was forced to take the car off the road around April due to oil leaks inside one of my turbos. Looks like I'll probably be off the road for about a year once all said and done, but fortunately in my own garage where I can work on it at my leisure. Keep up the faith, you'll love it again when you get it back and can roll onto the boost!

:incar:

[DKP]

Let’s hope the love comes back. Like I’ve said before she’s the crazy hot chick from our youth. One minute she’s everything you dreamed she could be next minute she’s throwing plates at you.

Anyway when it’s all said and done I’ll have new intercoolers, new ducting , everything under the manifold new, new HVAC , coolant and intake hoses. New oil cooler. Replaced the little coolant pipe with the new double o rings model , new/used EGT sensors , everything power washed and clean so Hopefully she won’t throw any plates at me for a few years.

[fukinavit]

Mine are reversed:
https://www.rs6.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19357&stc=1

One thing to keep in mind is that ideally these can easily be removed (particularly the passenger side) because they need to come out if you ever have to use the tow hook.

i had ordered these grills because i thought they looked cool, racing mesh and all that. However when they arrived i was disgusted at how shit they were made. Couldn't believe i had paid for some cheap chicken wire. The mesh was so thin in places it was barely connected. The final straw was when i went to install them and was even more disappointed into how they get installed with a cheap tab and screw......WTF. definitely didn't suit being installed on an RS6. I contacted wagner but they were no help.
Needless to say I ended up throwing them in the garbage.

[DKP]

Well finally after nearly two months and an embarrassingly large invoice paid the intercooler blues have hopefully turned into motoring bliss for the foreseeable future. Ended up with new intercoolers, full valve cover gasket set, every HVAV, coolant and intake hose replaced, every oil seal, new oil cooler, new alternator, auxiliary coolant pump, new air shrouds all around, new tie rod ends, new suction jet pump, new circuit boards soldered into the EGT sensors and an alignment. I must say with new intercoolers and all the air leaks sealed up the old girl really has some extra get up and go. It was so nice to pull into the garage and not have that faint smell of coolant, and oil after shut off. I'd have to say it feels and sounds factory fresh. Feels good to have that all done and hopefully I'll be rewarded with trouble free motoring for the next 4-5 years.

[Muggy]

Congrats on getting it back! Believe me, with just what I've spent in parts alone even before my trans swap parts, I can only imagine what your "bail" payment was for the beast. Glad that you are happy with the renewed life and performance...not just a Meh, yeah, it's back in the garage feeling. Just let me know if you need an extra trans for rebuilding in the future...I'll have 2 and not much desire to store after mine is back together. :thumb:

[DKP]

Thanks Muggy. My fantasy plan was to have you ship it straight to Tozo or level 10 have it rebuilt then put in my parts bin. However after my latest financial beating I need a little break. Maybe my financial attitude will change in a bit and I’ll follow through. Let me know when your at the end of your storage tolerance and I can see how I feel. I appreciate it. The trans you’re pulling out of your car is stiff functional correct. It’s not already toast? Thanks again.

[Muggy]

No worries right now...enjoy your car for a bit without any more $$$ out! Mine was working fine, but figured that it should have an overhaul and updated torque converter while the motor was out, but then decided to go full swap for the same $$$ as a rebuild. PO changed the fluid on mine a few years ago, which I honestly think was a dealer replaced unit at about 50k miles many years ago. I also have Jolio's spare too, which is of unknown condition, but he said he pulled just to go 6 speed for fun.

[DKP]

https://www.rs6.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19365&stc=1

Thanks Muggy,

Took the RS out for a quick run out on some twisties on the way to Steamboat. Ran like a champ. Tucked back in with her red headed roommate before the next snow storm blows in tomorrow.

Just holler when your tired of looking at your old transmission.

[Muggy]

Very nice! My wife and I had our honeymoon in Steamboat 30 years ago last month...I can only imagine how much my knees would hate me know if I tried to hit the slopes for those 30+ minute runs again! My wife's cousin just took his kids out locally to teach them to ski...blew out his "good" knee. My wife, her brother, her father, and more than a few friends have had blown out knees or more serious injuries on the slopes...a friend of ours' 17 year old son broke his arm last year and almost bled to death after the bone sliced an artery in his arm from a snowboard jump gone wrong.

I think I'll stick to a ridiculously powered sleeper sedan that can go 175 mph instead...:burnout:

Only bummer on our honeymoon was flipping on the news after a relaxing day of skiing to see the start of the Iraq war with the night vision videos of the stealth bombers destroying Baghdad.

All good on the trans for now...enjoy your rekindled love of your RS6!